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Post by iw5000 on Jan 6, 2012 10:45:57 GMT -5
Ugh, if only we could get the real stats. They seem to be "close" but not enough.. Thanks for these tests though. Also, MK46 has much more idle sway which at least makes it equal to the L86 in my books. Why do you need real stats, when actual gameplay , these tests, shows how the two guns work? There's nothing really complicated here. Just asking, not sure where you are coming from.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 6, 2012 12:24:25 GMT -5
I like hard data AKA numbers.
Much easier for me to compare and decide what I want that way.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 6, 2012 13:08:54 GMT -5
I like hard data AKA numbers. Much easier for me to compare and decide what I want that way. You will rarely find that. Numbers change with updates and fixes. And with many hard numbers, things just don't always match up. Case it point, the whole gun damage/range charts. You can calculate the precise '3-bullet' kill spot on a graph, in the MW3 units....but guess what? The numbers never match up correctly when going to in-game meter measurements. The charts are off.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 6, 2012 14:28:17 GMT -5
Yes, and then you update the numbers... And what on earth are you talking about after that?
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 6, 2012 14:59:33 GMT -5
How even updated numbers, will never match up to the specs actually being used in the game.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 6, 2012 23:24:28 GMT -5
im not following you here man black ops values were spot on, no?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Jan 7, 2012 0:45:53 GMT -5
Weapon data is encrypted a la MW2. We cannot access the actual values.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 7, 2012 9:22:10 GMT -5
im not following you here man black ops values were spot on, no? In MW3....take a gun like the MK14. Look at it's damage and range values. The range at which two bullets can kill is 1,950 if you plot it out. When you go into a game, test this out in reality, it works out to a measurement of 47 meters. Simple enough, each chart measurement of 'u' equals exactly 41.4 meters. So when you map out the measurements for the Type95, it's damage and range, on a graph....you find it's 3-bullet kill spot to be at 1,625u. Simple enough, right? Using the above formula, we should be able to test this out in actual gameplay and find exactly where the 3-bullet burst kill is. ...it should be at or around 39 to 40 meters. ....oops...it isn't when we test it out. The actual REAL kill spot is between 36 and 37 meters. As I said, the charts ...all the specs and numbers we obsess over like they are gold standards.....they don't always match up with actual real gameplay.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 7, 2012 10:43:51 GMT -5
@mega: I know iw5000: This I did not know So even values like range and what not are off? Dayum.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 7, 2012 11:39:31 GMT -5
I haven't tested this for every gun, every range, but the few I have looked into....things all don't match up. It depends on how much of a stickler you want to be. Speaking for myself, I don't find it to be that big of a deal if the T95's 3-burst kill spot is at 36.5 meters, rather than 39. Good to know, but it won't materially change anything. For some people on here? They OBSESS over these numbers and at times, seem like they base their entire decision on what gun to use...based on 110 millisecond chart numbers and above damage/range plot charts. It's a bit foolish imho.
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Post by josefrees on Jan 7, 2012 16:08:39 GMT -5
Inaccuracies matter because at some point you are operating within that inaccuracy.
And I've found simply the Grip+Kick to be devastating enough for the L86. The one thing TC failed to mention about Thermal is the blinders you have to wear to use it.
If you want a more complete guide measure the crouch spreads as well. There is a big difference between standing recoil and crouched recoil.
The l86 reload is fantastic.
Finally, going prone is really not that big of a deal. You don't crawl around all the time. You anticipate. I've laid waste to entire GW teams just by trudging to the right spot ahead of time. Long sightlines+prone+hotspots=points
Edit: also RF L86 is good if you aim down a bit. Once you hit the recoil cap vertically you can have a headshot machine for 80 or so shots.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Jan 7, 2012 19:41:53 GMT -5
I like what you did here. It's pretty useful.
I don't believe that kick + thermal works best with mk46. Regardless, even if kick + thermal works best with mk46, I'd still use thermal + grip because of specialist. Kick + thermal + grip is just great lol.
I've leveled both l86 and mk46 to gold. I see them the same way I saw acr vs tar on mw2. I personally preferred the tar, and currently prefer the mk46 myself.
Edit: I forgot to mention, I can't stand going back to ARs after using these two thermal LMGs lol.
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Post by esupin on Jan 8, 2012 1:07:25 GMT -5
I spent this afternoon with the L86 and have it up to lv 17 or 18. I'm not sure what's the most effective 1st and 3rd perk. I'm using Extreme Conditioning (is it even worth it? Wish there was a Lightweight perk) and Sitrep but am wondering how Steady Aim is (I usually dropshot/hipfire when someone is up in my face so the prone helps reduce recoil anyway).
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 8, 2012 1:19:46 GMT -5
I spent this afternoon with the L86 and have it up to lv 17 or 18. I'm not sure what's the most effective 1st and 3rd perk. I'm using Extreme Conditioning (is it even worth it? Wish there was a Lightweight perk) and Sitrep but am wondering how Steady Aim is (I usually dropshot/hipfire when someone is up in my face so the prone helps reduce recoil anyway). I have not played with L86 yet but I have leveled up MK46 to gold. IMHO LMGs need SoH / Quick Draw / Stalker to be effective against other weapon classes. SoH: although LMGs have large mag size, they also have painfully slow reload. SoH comes in handy when you need it. More importantly, you often have need to switch to secondary for CQC fire fight. SoH pro speeds up that process. Stalker vs .Steady Aim: I like Stalker better because even with Steady Aim LMGs still have significant hip spread. You are better off rely on Quick Draw to speed up ADS time and Stalker to enable strafing while ADS. Stalker pro is also nice to have as you don't have to worry about Claymore / Betty / IMS as much, especially with LMG's slow moving speed. There are other perks that you wish to have as well, which makes Specialist a good option for LMG loadout. Just my 2 cents. You should play with different options and see which ones fit you play style the best.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 8, 2012 1:28:42 GMT -5
I spent this afternoon with the L86 and have it up to lv 17 or 18. I'm not sure what's the most effective 1st and 3rd perk. I'm using Extreme Conditioning (is it even worth it? Wish there was a Lightweight perk) and Sitrep but am wondering how Steady Aim is (I usually dropshot/hipfire when someone is up in my face so the prone helps reduce recoil anyway). I have not played with L86 yet but I have leveled up MK46 to gold. IMHO LMGs need SoH / Quick Draw / Stalker to be effective against other weapon classes. SoH: although LMGs have large mag size, they also have painfully slow reload. SoH comes in handy when you need it. More importantly, you often have need to switch to secondary for CQC fire fight. SoH pro speeds up that process. Stalker vs .Steady Aim: I like Stalker better because even with Steady Aim LMGs still have significant hip spread. You are better off rely on Quick Draw to speed up ADS time and Stalker to enable strafing while ADS. Stalker pro is also nice to have as you don't have to worry about Claymore / Betty / IMS as much, especially with LMG's slow moving speed. There are other perks that you wish to have as well, which makes Specialist a good option for LMG loadout. Just my 2 cents. You should play with different options and see which ones fit you play style the best. BTW, if you feel this loadout puts you at constant danger due to the lack of Blind Eye and Assassin, you can compensate in two ways: 1) play Barebones playlist. No Strike Package means no air threat and no UAVs, as a result you don't need Blind Eye and Assassin; 2) Use Scrambler as you tactical equipment. It does the same thing as Blind Eye with additional benefit of helping your teammates as well. It jams the Radar of non-Assassin players, so it does about 50% of what Assassin does.
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 8, 2012 10:35:09 GMT -5
l86 blind eye assassin marksman
mk46 soh assassin marksman
im sure the bros using stalker with an lmg still dominate with it, but i just cant understand why you would play in a fashion with an lmg in which stalker would really make much of a difference...
you have crazy accurate weapon with great firerate and range... marksman is your boy.
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Post by esupin on Jan 8, 2012 22:08:31 GMT -5
Just got my Thermal! Marksman is great but once you have the Thermal, there's no need since they serve similar functions (and both are countered by Assassin).
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 8, 2012 22:25:04 GMT -5
l86 blind eye assassin marksman mk46 soh assassin marksman im sure the bros using stalker with an lmg still dominate with it, but i just cant understand why you would play in a fashion with an lmg in which stalker would really make much of a difference... you have crazy accurate weapon with great firerate and range... marksman is your boy. Yes, if you prone shoot almost all the time, then Stalker is not needed. Marksman on the other hand can point you to enemies that you can't see without scoping in.
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Post by josefrees on Jan 9, 2012 18:43:21 GMT -5
My set up with the L86 is:
L86 w/kick and grip Scavenger Pro Assassin Marksman
You don't need to try making it an AR. Play it like an LMG.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Jan 10, 2012 0:28:14 GMT -5
I tested mk46 thermal with grip vs kick and grip was noticeably more accurate. It's not quite l86-accurate but it definitely makes the mk46 look better than the OP's pictures do (no offense meant )
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jan 10, 2012 4:51:25 GMT -5
I spent this afternoon with the L86 and have it up to lv 17 or 18. I'm not sure what's the most effective 1st and 3rd perk. I'm using Extreme Conditioning (is it even worth it? Wish there was a Lightweight perk) and Sitrep but am wondering how Steady Aim is (I usually dropshot/hipfire when someone is up in my face so the prone helps reduce recoil anyway). With LMG I always use: Blind Eye, Assassin, Marksman. Trinity for many LMG & AR classes anyway, as I prefer mid-long ranges. I can trade BE for Scavenger only. LMG: Proficiency: Attachments: Grip+ExtMagz or Grip+Sights. Kick+Grip is a good alternative as well. Build a 2nd class with all the same but Per 3: SitRep and try it to discover how many equipment the enemy deploys.. If many – use SitRep class, otherwise swap to Marksman. Reloading is not a problem if you look at your ammo counter from time to time, can fell the flow of the game and know the heat map (You just pull back to reload). Using LMG you should not be on the front line so reloading is REALLY not a problem. If you have problems with reloading, you die a lot = you still cannot play with LMG. You do not need a silencer, you are behind your teammates, more: showing on the minimap might be beneficial for your Assassin teammates who could flank dudes trying to flank you. You do not need Extr Cond as you do not run. (better: unbound ‘sprint’ button, it ‘ll save you many idiotic deaths while running with LMG in MW3). You do not need Dead Silence as well – you do not have to run, really you do not have to. As a secondary – MP9 with RDS/Silencer if LMG needs a reload or no ammo. Launchers (SMAW) are a bit impractical as a regular equipment as maps are cluttered. Using a launcher might lead to suicide … Stinger works better with SMG class (speed is the key). - That’s a kind of difference vs MW2: a secondary for RPD should be a launcher or STINGER…. in MW3 it does not work, more: LMGs do not work … problem solved. ---- tl;dr: You don't need to try making it an AR. Play it like an LMG.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 10, 2012 7:53:03 GMT -5
I tested mk46 thermal with grip vs kick and grip was noticeably more accurate. It's not quite l86-accurate but it definitely makes the mk46 look better than the OP's pictures do (no offense meant ) I agree. The reason I used 'kick' rather than 'Grip', ....was because a number of other people insisted the MK with kick was the correct setup. So that's what I used for the testing.
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Post by josefrees on Jan 15, 2012 19:36:27 GMT -5
I have been using the thermal with the L86 with thermal and it is straight up nasty. Nobody has any edge on you and even sniper fail as soon as flinch hits. It IMO makes any other gun decadent.
With thermal: L86 w/ speed w/ thermal Scavenger Assassin (or QuickDraw) Steady Aim
Recoil is not relevant unless you are going long long range.
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Post by thatdanishguy on Jan 17, 2012 4:35:37 GMT -5
One question (sorry if I missed it): Does Thermal also increase the spread when hip firing? I really hate the thermal sights in this game. It's hard to see people (so many use assassin), and I see enemies a lot easier if I'm not looking through a scope, since then I can watch the minimap and cover multiple pathways at the same time, since my view is not blocked by the black surrounding the scope.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 17, 2012 9:38:55 GMT -5
One question (sorry if I missed it): Does Thermal also increase the spread when hip firing? I really hate the thermal sights in this game. It's hard to see people (so many use assassin), and I see enemies a lot easier if I'm not looking through a scope, since then I can watch the minimap and cover multiple pathways at the same time, since my view is not blocked by the black surrounding the scope. I have no clue. Maybe someone can test it out.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 17, 2012 16:32:36 GMT -5
One question (sorry if I missed it): I really hate the thermal sights in this game. It's hard to see people (so many use assassin), and I see enemies a lot easier if I'm not looking through a scope, since then I can watch the minimap and cover multiple pathways at the same time, since my view is not blocked by the black surrounding the scope. I like thermal for my "overwatch" class, a loadout that either covers a significant portion of the map from a good vantage point, or covers team's flanks. The purpose of its movement is to find a good spot to lie down, and then wait patiently for enemies to show up. I personally use Marksman as the 3rd perk for advanced enemy detection, however several bros have suggested Stalker because Marksman and Thermal overlap with each other in functionality. WIth a thermal equipped weapon you need to avoid moving aggressively, because you are at big disadvantage when running into an enemy. ADS is too slow without Quick Draw, and the tunnel vision sometimes gives you a lot of trouble trying to put the enemy inside your scope view.
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Post by josefrees on Jan 17, 2012 17:02:31 GMT -5
Pretty much the only reason to use Grip+Kick over thermal is those blinders. But by not scoping too long you can limit it a lot. It takes a little longer anticipation. I hardly ever "hardscope" with it unless it is a high traffic area and I have teammates around to eat flank bullets/cover me.
One on the reasons I use SA with thermal is so that when things do get close you have a good chance. Idk whether it gets worse or not (I am going with no) but LMG have pretty bad HS to begin with. Marksman is very redundant with thermal.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 18, 2012 8:07:12 GMT -5
Using the thermal, with it's obviously gimped out viewing angles (no side vision).....it becomes ALL about knowing and picking the right spots to lay waste to the opponents. Every map has one or two....especially so, after you get two flags and begin spawn trapping. This is where the L86+thermal just kicks butt for me, where i can routinely get on those 20+ killstreaks.
Again...the key is the set-up. Having two flags and the spawn trap set.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Jan 26, 2012 6:08:21 GMT -5
i think not enough emphasis was put on the fact that while crouching doesn't reduce recoil as much as prone, it does help enough to make any setup that doesn't have kick or grip more accurate.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 27, 2012 7:13:24 GMT -5
i think not enough emphasis was put on the fact that while crouching doesn't reduce recoil as much as prone, it does help enough to make any setup that doesn't have kick or grip more accurate. Crouching does help, but there's only so much you can put into a post. Standing and going prone got first priority, since they are the two extremes.
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