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Post by iw5000 on Mar 14, 2012 10:43:25 GMT -5
It's been two months, and I thought I would add a follow up to this thread. More specifically, the portion of the debate between the L86 Thermal vs the MK46 Thermal. That generated a healthy debate on what LMG is best with the thermal. Well.....I've had time to really put in some long hours with both guns now. About 10,672 kills with the L86, and about 1,500 kills with the MK46. Around 500 and 75 games with each gun. In fact, i've used all the LMG's so much, with the thermal, i'm in the top 1,000 in the world for the 'thermal kill' accolade, as well as LMG Headshots and 7.62m kills.
My thoughts.
First. I'm using both guns primarily in Domination. Using them not as a run & gun weapon, but primarily as a "lock down a side of the map" weapon. These guns, especially with the thermal, are best when the enemy is 1)kept at mid to long range, and 2) coming at you from a tight cone of vision. With the LMG's having huge clips, you can mow down 3, 4, 5 plus enemies at a time wtihout reloading. Taking on two plus enemies at one time is even easy too. That's the strength of the LMG's.
So that said, playtesting both, I have TWO good stats to draw from to compare. Checking on the Elite page, i can see each gun's accuracy and my own KD ratio per gun. As suspected, the L86 ended up with better accuracy, 16% to 14%. What surprised me was that my KD ratio with the L86 was/is at 1.98....and it's around 1.66 with the MK.
What does the above mean? My guess is this. I stay alive longer with the L86. If i am staying alive longer, that means i'm getting more 5-9-12 killstreaks. Adding my killstreak kills to my gun's KD...probably bumps it up to around 2.40. Yes, the MK does more damage per bullet, but that's offset by it being more inaccurate. Bottom line......at least for me, the L86 is better. It's more effective.
Some other play testing thoughts. With the MK, I have to use Sleight of Hand. No choice, as it takes about 8 seconds to reload with SoH. So with that, I can't use Scav Pro now. What I found is that I have to conserve bullets a bit with it. I have to be a bit careful with my shot selection. The L86 with Scav Pro? I'll endlessly spray through walls, distances, no concern at all with ammo issues. This tends to get me a few extra kills at times, especially when picking up Hardline pro assist kills.
All the above adds up. That's why my KD ratio is 21% higher with the L86.
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Post by marinerogue on Mar 15, 2012 14:20:55 GMT -5
I hate to nit pick your last post here iw5000 but I really feel like you need more data with the MK46 to fully compare your MK vs L86 K/D. It may very well be an accurate analysis despite that but your L86 values are definitely far more stable than your MK46 values. This is especially true if you got a decent fraction of your MK46 kills earlier in your LMG testing days.
I've found that when I started playing MW3 I sucked with basically any gun. Now that I am going back to try some of them out again with more personal skill and knowledge of gun strengths, my KD for every gun will be (and is) better than it was when I briefly tried them out during my first month or so of play.
note: I don't have a partiality toward either gun (although when I tried the L86 some, I remember thinking it was under powered and gave lots of hitmarkers). I just feel like comparing a 10.6k kill gun to a 1.5k kill gun is a little skewed.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 15, 2012 15:15:05 GMT -5
All of my Mk46 gun data has come from the past month. I'm not sure if 1,500 kills or so is enough, but it is recent. My gameplay with that gun, almost mimics the exact same style, sets and use with the L86. If anything, my skills might be very slightly better now than say a few months ago.
That said, even in the past two nights, i've played about 40 more games. My gun KD with the MK jumped from 1.66 to about 1.80. So the gap has been reduced a bit. (My KD for this week (mon to wed), has jumped through the roof, my KD is at a 3.25 pace for this week....must be something in the air)
So i tend to stand by my comments still. The L86's small bit of accuracy does help one get kills easier (and avoid being killed). I think it will turn up, that small 'bump', in most people's KD ratios. But all in all, we are kind of splitting hairs here overall. If you suck with LMG....going from one to the other won't solve anything. And if you are good with the L86, you'll be good with the MK, or vice versa.
ps....that's why using Hardline pro is so essential with the L*6...all those hitmarkers turn to 'kills'.
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Post by josefrees on Mar 15, 2012 15:25:43 GMT -5
I think the OP pictures say it all. That accuracy.
And are we ever going to get definitive numbers on the stance recoil modifiers? There has to be some statistical method to at least get ballpark numbers.
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Post by marinerogue on Mar 15, 2012 15:39:15 GMT -5
I agree with the hardline pro being super useful b/c i haaaated the hitmarkers I got getting L86 to thermal a few prestiges ago (it actually made me more of a fan of the M60--just b/c of the power vacuum) but still feel that the LMGs need quickdraw to stand any chance in close to mid-range encounters. The L86 specifically frustrated me b/c at range the TTK was slow enough (despite the extreme accuracy) that people had plenty of time to move out of LoS or juke while shooting with a faster TTK weapon.
My BIGGEST beef with LMGs is that I feel you almost NEED to run specialist to make them truly viable. You almost need Quickdraw and hardline, marksman and stalker, and sleight of hand and recon/scavenger etc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 17:22:54 GMT -5
Wow, blown away by the effort you put into this iw5000, can't thank you enough!
Definitely gonna grind the L86.
Would LOVE to see you make more!
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Mar 15, 2012 19:47:36 GMT -5
Although I haven't used the LMGs as much as you, I'll share my stats.
MK46: 3.51 kdr (1302 kills total), 17% accuracy
L86: 3.13 kdr (916 kills total), 17% accuracy
The L86 was my first LMG until gold, then I switched to MK46. My kdr has been on a steady rise for the most part so that could be why the L86 is less kd than the MK46. I've strictly used specialist on all my LMG classes and nearly identical class setups (SoH, Assassin, Stalker). Lately I've been messing around with quick draw instead of assassin on the MK46 and I've been pleased with the results.
I know this isn't saying much but it's a different perspective on these two guns (for those that may find this useful).
EDIT
Doesn't matter anymore, L86 wins by a long shot after this patch. I managed to increase my kd to 3.39 and get two moabs as well this morning. This gun if fucking overpowered now lol.
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Post by wraith on Mar 17, 2012 0:20:54 GMT -5
i just hopped in game because i had to see the 'laser beam while prone + thermal' thing.
near as i can tell, it doesn't do this anymore, at least not on PC. firing while prone with thermal gave a spread basically identical to that of crouching with thermal (though i didnt test extensively), and certainly not the 'every bullet in the same spot' thing described by the original post.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 17, 2012 12:18:02 GMT -5
Not sure what to tell you...but it most certainly does do it on the XBox. I read what you wrote, then spent 3 min and went and retested things.
Went into a private match setting, marked off 77 meters, then fired off the MK46 and L86. Did it under three stances for both....prone, crouching, and standing. L86 while prone still nails like 40 to 50 bullets onto a quarter size hole. Even at 77 meters. Ridiculous level of accuracy. Nothing has changed.
All in all...going prone imparts the magical accuracy powers. Crouching isn't as good, maybe makes the the bullet radius twice as large? Standing probably increases the bullet zone 2 to 3x. MK46? Not as good as the L86. Take the above bullet damage zones....and pretty much double the impact area zone in size. Still pretty accurate, but not L86 accurate.
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Post by josefrees on Mar 17, 2012 13:29:34 GMT -5
You do not need specialist with the L86. The reload knocks out SoH. The ADS is easily compensated for by either range or pieing.
I pop the L86 right into the same exact setup as my AR class and have no problems. 1. L86 with Thermal and Silencer 2. L86 with Kick and Grip (trade silence, accuracy for awareness) Equipment (I use C4/PR) Scavenger Assassin 1. Steady Aim 2. Marksman PM/PA/Reaper or AC-130
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Post by Robospy on Mar 17, 2012 16:49:04 GMT -5
i just hopped in game because i had to see the 'laser beam while prone + thermal' thing. near as i can tell, it doesn't do this anymore, at least not on PC. firing while prone with thermal gave a spread basically identical to that of crouching with thermal (though i didnt test extensively), and certainly not the 'every bullet in the same spot' thing described by the original post. Sometimes if you lie down in awkward positions, like on a mound or the edge of a car etc. the prone bonus sometimes fails, I believe there is a simple detection for whether you're in a position where one could use a bipod before it makes your gun a laser
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Post by wraith on Mar 17, 2012 19:12:22 GMT -5
Yeah I went ahead and did some more tests and I can't replicate the laser beam with the l86 under any circumstances on PC. if another PC user can I'd love to know how. youtube is being crap and won't let me upload the video i took so i'll ive got are screenshots; but here: img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/aquilae/Untitled2-1.pngone of the spots i used, completely flat, can turn 360* in prone and not touch any obstacles img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/aquilae/Untitled-7.pngtwo full magazines. left is crouching, right is prone. tested with kick/thermal, grip/thermal, thermal by itself, and stability/thermal. crouch and prone gave basically indentical spread patterns every time.
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Post by asasa on Mar 17, 2012 23:01:49 GMT -5
Not for me, thermal heavily reduces recoil as does prone. Its always possible you are getting a lot of badrecoil rolls... however unlikely.
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Post by wraith on Mar 18, 2012 1:52:53 GMT -5
I'm discussing a behavior described in the original post (which apparently still works on xbox) where using thermal + prone will give the l86 no recoil whatsoever (every bullet hits the same spot). thermal and prone both give significant boosts to accuracy, I'm not speaking to that, only the thermal+prone=100% accuracy behavior.
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Post by marinerogue on Mar 18, 2012 3:50:02 GMT -5
You do not need specialist with the L86. The reload knocks out SoH. The ADS is easily compensated for by either range or pieing. I pop the L86 right into the same exact setup as my AR class and have no problems. 1. L86 with Thermal and Silencer 2. L86 with Kick and Grip (trade silence, accuracy for awareness) Equipment (I use C4/PR) Scavenger Assassin 1. Steady Aim 2. Marksman PM/PA/Reaper or AC-130 I'd be ok with this except that I really want BEP for the double points and easy killstreak devastation. Problem is, scav is basically needed after only a handful of kills/killstreak kills.
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