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Post by rubionubio on Jan 17, 2012 4:05:37 GMT -5
So, I love discussing game design theory, especially from a balance standpoint, and also coming up with ideas for stuff like new game-modes or attachments, etc, etc.
Do you Bros share a similar love? Would you like to share in my pants-party here and explain a few of your personal "If I could, I would do this" ideas, just for fun's sake?
Here are a few of mine that I'm just going to come up with and verbally crap out as I go:
* Hot-loaded ammo - Increase muzzle velocity and recoil magnitude but leaves spread alone, just makes gun jumpier
* Hollow-point rounds - Less penetration/destruction and lower damage in torso and probably helmet if you could swing that engine-wise (body armor here IRL) but increased damage on limbs and face
* Match rounds - Small version of hot-loaded effect but with no downside on actual gun mechanics, but you carry less ammo by default, as this is typically hand-loaded stuff. And possibly only available to recon or something to avoid support just dropping an ammo crate for themselves.
Man, I could go on and on about this stuff, and this is only the AMMO, not even talking about accessories and gun-addons that a real gunsmith would have at his disposal (lightened bolts, reduced trigger weight, etc. etc.). IMO they hit a total home run when they chose to keep things as close to "real" as possible, because it lends so much believeability to the whole add-on mechanic/system, as opposed to the CoD mechanic where they just pick a "cool" accessory and make it's in-game effects just match whatever they want it to do balance-wise, regardless of it's real function/level of effect (I'm looking at you rapid-fire).
The only area where they sort of missed the mark if you ask me is with the suppressors as an option on ALL the LMGs. It's theoretically possible, but not in any way plausible that you'd have 400 rounds of cold-loaded sub-sonic ammo made specifically for your PKP with a 3 foot long silencer. Now, the IAR/RPK should absolutely have silencer attachments as they are literally just up-barreled conversions with some internal conversions done to increase durability, etc. Just for the love of God not on the PKP/Pig/240B.
So, Bros, have you any ideas/wishes to share?
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Post by SheWolf on Jan 17, 2012 8:01:47 GMT -5
man, i shouldn't start with this..thinking this way makes me depressed, because i see the genius mechanics and can't help but to think what could have been..
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 17, 2012 9:04:45 GMT -5
You forgot FMJ Rounds, let's say more damage to armored areas of the player and more bullet penetration (which seems to be lacking completely in this game except on flesh to flesh targets) and a trade off of more vertical muzzle climb.
Or how about steel core penetration rounds? Like the 4.7mm rounds in the MP7. Similar function, I guess.
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 17, 2012 9:25:09 GMT -5
^you can shoot through that corrugated iron sheet stuff, btw. Only thing I've noticed though.
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tiesieman
True Bro
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Posts: 1,401
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 17, 2012 10:11:30 GMT -5
This stuff gets even better when you start thinking in a BF-2143ish style; you can pretty much make up anything!
And I saw a video with an actual suppressed pig (question to you gunnuts; does adding a suppressor mean you have to use cold loaded rounds?). Kinda odd that people would really invest time in such a ridiculous thing but okay
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Post by SheWolf on Jan 17, 2012 10:50:47 GMT -5
well the term "cold loaded" is rather...well lets say there is no such thing^^
a surpressor only works with rounds that do not fly at a supersonic speed. if you shoot normal rounds with a silencer, you will still have the very loud sonic boom of the bullet exiting the muzzle. save some special solutions like the russian 9x39 mm superheavy rounds, subsonic rounds are inferior in speed and stopping power to normal rounds, obviously. a supressor/silencer on a machinegun works in theory, but it's hilariously impractical, since a real supressor has a lifetime of only a few hundred shots. much less, if used with rapid fire. random trivia: real silenced weapons are still rather loud. about the same as clapping your hands together as loud as you can.^^
@ toppic: i'm also thinking a magazine slot, for taped-togehter magazines and stuff like that maybe.
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 17, 2012 11:39:05 GMT -5
Exactly what SheWolf said. Cold-loaded won't change a super-sonic round to a non-super round, as there isn't a big enough difference between a 26 and a 29 grain 5.56x45mm round to change it from sonic-boom land to silent-as-a-whisper territory. It's just a term that generally refers to the practice/idea that you can make a special round which is *purposely* made to be sub-sonic, like the awesome 7N6 or 7N12 rounds that SheWolf is talking about. That stuff is freaking amazing in that it has a much shorter lethal range and more "bullet drop" (just slower, so it feels like more, obv. gravity has the same effect) but my God is it going to wreck the target. It will penetrate a centimeter of steel plating with a muzzle velocity of only about 1/3 your typical 5.56x45mm round, which is just amazing. This ammo is why the VAL should be a super-lethal close-range powerhouse that quickly degrades in performance at range.
Anyone who's interested in this kind of stuff, even just for the fun of it should check out the Professional Russian channel on the Youtubes. Dude is a hilarious parody of the typical "have nice day" Russian and he has access to some of the sickest guns/weapon systems out there.
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tiesieman
True Bro
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 17, 2012 11:51:35 GMT -5
Damn, you guys know your guns.
I really liked some of the ideas BF2142 had with its guns. For example, there was an AT launcher that fired 4 rockets rapidly after eachother. It's description was something like that it's designed so that all 4 rockets hit the exact same spot and penetrated more steel than a single one. In game it was just an rpg that spread its damage over 4 different rockets, so they didn't stay true to their own ideas. But I like ideas like that. It essentially would be an RPG-iteration of the AN-94
Wonder what direction real life small arms will take in say, 100 years.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 17, 2012 15:29:57 GMT -5
But I like ideas like that. It essentially would be an RPG-iteration of the AN-94 What a machine. Exactly what SheWolf said. Cold-loaded won't change a super-sonic round to a non-super round, as there isn't a big enough difference between a 26 and a 29 grain 5.56x45mm round to change it from sonic-boom land to silent-as-a-whisper territory. It's just a term that generally refers to the practice/idea that you can make a special round which is *purposely* made to be sub-sonic, like the awesome 7N6 or 7N12 rounds that SheWolf is talking about. That stuff is freaking amazing in that it has a much shorter lethal range and more "bullet drop" (just slower, so it feels like more, obv. gravity has the same effect) but my God is it going to wreck the target. It will penetrate a centimeter of steel plating with a muzzle velocity of only about 1/3 your typical 5.56x45mm round, which is just amazing. This ammo is why the VAL should be a super-lethal close-range powerhouse that quickly degrades in performance at range. The VSS, which shares much part commonality with the VAL, along with the ammunition, has a very good lethal range for a subsonic bullet. It is also very very quiet, as most weapons with integrated suppressors are. The one thing that makes both the AS VAL and the VSS very hard to be accurate with is the 9x39mm round's awful yaw. Simplified video of the concept of bullet yaw below. More on YawAnd some amature testingSubsonic bullets lose stability over long ranges, and heavier bullets with more energy (like the 9mm) can really be difficult to shoot. The bullets yaw in the air, but also have a tendency to yaw when they impact flesh, which increases lethality. Note: I have limited physics backgrounds (college classes) and no real range time, just like reading about these things I am no expert on the subject matter. The round despite it's inefficiencies is my favorite. The one loaded into the VSS has a projectile weight of 16.8 grams, or about 260 grain. A conventional .44 magnum round has grain weights ranging from 200-240, with higher grain weight rounds for armor piercing. The .357 round only gets as heavy as 200 grain. The heaviest .45 round is the subsonic 230 grain round. 9x19 parrabellum, don't even try to compete. This round will knock you on your ass.
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Post by ZeroKelvin^ on Jan 17, 2012 15:36:17 GMT -5
I really liked some of the ideas BF2142 had with its guns. BF2142 rockets also showed what the grenades of a Punisher or OICW could change on the Battlefield, there was no safe cover and last but not least, it is the ONLY implementation of a noobtube ever in a MP game that was neither overpowered or uselesss
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phale
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Post by phale on Jan 17, 2012 16:09:34 GMT -5
Dude, I love this kind of stuff, I can spend all day trying to think up attachments and crap for FPSs and how to balance them.
In terms of ammo, things become more interesting when you think about ammo in terms of magazines (like in real life) instead of individual bullets. In most FPSs, reserve ammo is stored in a central pool of ammunition, while in real life reserve ammo is stored in magazines. Thus, you could have one magazine of hollow points, one of steel-core penetrating ammo, one of subsonic, etc. You could add on to this by implementing a feature by which, say, holding down the reload button, you could select which magazine is loaded into the weapon. Further, the support class could be balanced out by only handing out "regular" ammunition, without any special types, and then you could add some specialization that lets Support supply special ammunition... so many possibilities!
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 18, 2012 1:42:01 GMT -5
Rudy, you a man after my heart Bro. I should have clarified my statement about the VAL. I was strictly talking from a balance standpoint. There aren't many maps that are large enough where the severe yaw and lack of projectile speed that the 7N12 posesses would really be a drawback, so if you made it strictly true to life you'd have the Famas from Black Ops ;D I especially liked the video of the yaw, it does about as good a job as you can do on a 2D plot. The whole concept is sort of easy to understand, from a physics standpoint. You have a lot of mass moving at a slow speed, slowing down by the millisecond. doo-doo's gonna wobble. Thus, you could have one magazine of hollow points, one of steel-core penetrating ammo, one of subsonic, etc. You could add on to this by implementing a feature by which, say, holding down the reload button, you could select which magazine is loaded into the weapon. Further, the support class could be balanced out by only handing out "regular" ammunition, without any special types, and then you could add some specialization that lets Support supply special ammunition... YES! I love it!
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 18, 2012 12:38:57 GMT -5
I especially liked the video of the yaw, it does about as good a job as you can do on a 2D plot. The whole concept is sort of easy to understand, from a physics standpoint. You have a lot of mass moving at a slow speed, slowing down by the millisecond. doo-doo's gonna wobble. Unlike that youtube video with the simplified model, imagine the bullet stability getting worse instead of better! 100m, it starts to yaw violently, then all of the sudden, you have a spinning-top death trap! The yaw forces would make the wobble on the right weirder and weirder. I think one way of balancing the weapons today as it stands is to give different multipliers to parts of the body based on the weapon. Why not? Snipers will be a OHKO to the chest (upper chest according to Demize99, who has stopped working on BF3) how about better multipliers for worse weapons? Like the AK-74 get's a 1.0 multiplier to the legs and a 1.2 to the chest? I think it's at least one way to go about it. Not super realistic, but w/e.
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Post by rubionubio on Jan 18, 2012 13:22:35 GMT -5
Well, it wouldn't be UNrealistic either, since different ammo does different things to different types of flesh. Surviving a 7N12 round to the throat? Not gonna happen.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 18, 2012 14:37:18 GMT -5
Well, it wouldn't be UNrealistic either, since different ammo does different things to different types of flesh. Surviving a 7N12 round to the throat? Not gonna happen. The whole bullet=damage characteristics thing is bad. I was just thinking that lower RPM guns could arbitrarily get better multipliers. I don't want the 5.56mm round as a class to get multipliers, because then things like the FAMAS would be even more OP.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 18, 2012 16:46:40 GMT -5
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 18, 2012 17:09:13 GMT -5
Yeah, I wish DICE would scrap their whole bullet=damage idea. It's a nice thought, but it makes balancing the game a nightmare. BF3 really gives me Black Ops vibes at times when it comes to weapon comparisons within classes. It's not nearly as simple of course, but when every weapon does the same damage (for the most part), RoF is too much of a player. They certainly have the tools available to make the weaker weapons have special properties, they just refuse to do it. I mean, look at the B2K weapons. Q-whatever Carbine has PDW-style attachments and unique recoil recovery, MG36 bridges the gap between the "AR" LMGs and belt LMGs, Q-whatever LMG goes a step further than the MG36 and has high velocity, 88 sniper has unique recoil and a flash suppressor, and FAMAS takes the route of huge pros and cons rather than slight differences. And I'm not completely sure since I don't have it unlocked yet, but I could swear I've seen that the Jackhammer has a silencer. I can't remember if the attachments are bugged "DICE only" unlocks or not, but even so, they make the weapons unique. Compared to how the vanilla weapons stacked up to each other, it's wildly different.
They can always make changes, but I don't have that much faith. I hate to sound impatient, but how long has it been since they admitted to bugged weapon stats? Plus we've had bugged silencers since release. It doesn't seem like they're in a hurry to fix their mistakes, so why would they be in a hurry to make any attempts at balancing?
Anyway, now that I'm done ranting, I'll just throw out some ideas for balancing the weaker weapons and making others more unique. And this is all ignoring RoF, velocity, etc. I'm sure those are supposed to be "authentic," and I highly doubt those would ever change.
AK-74M: 30-17 damage, vertical recoil .45, first shot recoil 1.5
M416: vertical recoil .3, StandingZ Move and CrouchingZ Move spread min .7 (ADS spread while moving)
G3A3: suppression 10%
AKS-74u: 30-14.3 damage, vertical recoil .45
SCAR-H: left/right recoil .4, recoil recovery 20.0
SG553: PDW-style attachments (laser/flashlight in second slot), first shot recoil 2.0
RPK-74M: 30-17 damage, vertical recoil .5, first shot recoil 1.5, suppression 8.5%
T88: vertical recoil .4, left/right recoil .3, threshold (reload cancel) .9
SVD: right recoil .2, suppression 25%
M40A5: bolt time 1.0s
PP2000: 25-11.2 damage
UMP45: 30-12.5 damage
PDW-R: 30 round default (no extended), left recoil 4.0, regular reload 3.0s, recoil recovery 20.0
PP-19: 17-10 damage, vertical recoil .4, left/right recoil .2, recoil recovery 20.0
M1014: buckshot/flechette cone 3.0
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