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Post by lee46 on Jan 24, 2012 19:33:30 GMT -5
Figured i'd have a random mental exercise.
How would you balance PDWs if they could either be primaries OR secondaries, replacing pistols? Quick note: the following changes are suggested if they're selected for secondaries
PP2000, UMP45, MP7, PDW-R, P90, AS VAL, PP-19 are the contenders here.
IMO PP2000 might need to recieve a CQB damage nerf so semi-auto pistols can compete, but the G18 does everything the PP2000 can with a higher damage at range and a higher rate of fire anyway, so everything else is fine. The G18 is less accurate, which gives the PP2000 its niche as a precision machine pistol.
UMP45 would be an automatic version of the M1911, requiring two more shots to kill at all ranges. Same regards to PP2000, though
MP7: No extended mag, damage nerf to pre-Dec.6 patch
P90: Can't figure out how to nerf it past MP7 without it being useless
PDW-R: 17/10 damage, should be fine otherwise
AS VAL: Wouldn't work without nerfing it to hell
PP-19: MAYBE one less shot to kill in cqb
G18: Slightly less spread gained per shot on full auto, maybe drop it to .3 instead of .5, else leave it
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 25, 2012 4:46:01 GMT -5
I would keep most of the PDWs if not all of them primaries. Maybe the PP-2K, since it's one of the smallest and it fires a pistol round, but I'd rather buff it so it's better as a primairy
UMP-45 34-12,5 damage like it was in the beta. It'll be a serious close quarter contender with damage like that, so maybe give it some movement penalties
MP-7 0,6 zoom spread, 22-11 damage. Extended mags built-in.
PP-2K 34-11 basically a UMP-45 with less damage at range, but more bullet vel. and more capaticity (cause extendeds are built in, 44 round style like I saw Rudybojangles post)
PDW-R 25-14,3 damage like pre-patch. Basically, it would become a carbine usable by all classes.
P90 20-11 damage. VS the MP7, the P90 has a slightly lower fire rate, a bit less damage that's only noticable in the limps but it has better capaticity + accuracy
PP-19 22-9,7 damage. 0,6 zoom accuracy and slightly bigger hipfire than other PDWs. Holds 64 rounds. VS the p90, it has best capaticity and more power up close, but loses both accuracy and power at range.
AS-VAL 25-14,3 damage. More damage up close instead of the weird sniper-carbine we have now. Accuracy stats remain the same aside from 0,1 zoom accuracy, plus a built-in 30 round magazine.
so that was every pdw right?
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 25, 2012 12:31:03 GMT -5
I don't like the primary/secondary idea. Although I would be in favor of moving the PP2000 to being a secondary. In that case: 20 rounds, no attachments. Basically a slower, more accurate G18. On the fence about max damage though. 25 is too good versus semi pistols, 20 too weak versus G18. Maybe leave it at 25, but give it a slower switch time. Or I could be lazy and say 22.
I wouldn't go as far as giving 34 damage (maybe UMP), and I think 25 would be too strong for the VAL, even with lower min. I still think 30 is a good sweetspot for the UMP. PDW-R at 14.3 is good. P90/MP7 are perfect as is. PP-19, eh...I don't know. How about 14.3-11.2? Just something more unique I guess.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 25, 2012 13:41:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't go as far as giving 34 damage (maybe UMP), and I think 25 would be too strong for the VAL, even with lower min. I still think 30 is a good sweetspot for the UMP. PDW-R at 14.3 is good. P90/MP7 are perfect as is. PP-19, eh...I don't know. How about 14.3-11.2? Just something more unique I guess. Well, I was thinking that if you'd buff the UMP to a higher level the other PDWs need some love too. Then again, I'm giving extended mags away by default. Also, for the UMP, with moving accuracy nerfed it'd become a bit more like a carbine. Think of it as the old SCAR-H, but a lot crappier at range For the others, maybe this is better: PP-2K: 44 rounds, 30-12,5 damage and low recoil. Also more bullet velocity MP7: 40 round mag by default. Maybe that 22-10 damage though VAL: I kinda don't see why 25 would be too much for it, since we already have the AEK doing the exact same thing (and the FAMAS doing it better). I'd still say 25-14,3 damage, 30 round mag but more recoil (remember that it also has built in penalties of being silenced) PP-19: I agree, needs to be more unique. Just read this thing has a 600-700ish rate of fire IRL; maybe it should play like a 9mm AK (with an actual niche though) So how about RoF of 650 RPM with 25-12,5 damage but slow bullet speed. VS pp-2k and UMP it trades power in for accuracy and handling
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phale
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Post by phale on Jan 25, 2012 18:36:30 GMT -5
I'd like to jump in here. Given the OP's post, I've decided to move the PP-2000 and MP7 to the secondary slot, with the added drawback of very slow swap time (including unfolding/extending the stock) and somewhat increased hipfire spread. They will offer increased penetration abilities over the pistols, and retain all attachments except the suppressor, but with the limitation that only one can be chosen from all 3 groups (and they will all reduce swap time further).
PP-2000: 20-12.5, 650 RPM, 20 round mag.
MP7: 16.7-10, 950 RPM, 20 round mag.
However, the other PDWs will remain in the primary slot.
UMP45: 34-10, but with range dropping off at about 4-5 meters instead of the current 8. Give it a little bit more upward recoil and slightly less recoil recovery. Everything else can remain the same.
P90: Fine the way it is.
PP-19: 25-12.5, 700 RPM, 64 round mag. Essentially similar to the original PP-2000.
PDW-R: 25-14.3, 750 RPM, 20 round mag, but with significantly reduced range (about 8m close to 25m far). Give it slightly more recoil and less recoil recovery.
AS VAL: Not really sure how to balance this one. In real life, it's a pretty beast weapon, firing a big, heavy round at a high rate with decent accuracy. I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a significant change: 30-12.5, low range, 900 RPM, 20 round mag (no extended), recoil, recovery, and spread increase similar to SCAR-H, accuracy/spread on par with the LMGs. Overpowered? Perhaps. These changes give it significant firepower at close range, but make it nearly useless at long range. Hmm... I do think it's fine and pretty unique the way it is currently, although it is depicted much differently than it is in real life.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 26, 2012 11:43:08 GMT -5
I'd like to jump in here. Given the OP's post, I've decided to move the PP-2000 and MP7 to the secondary slot, with the added drawback of very slow swap time (including unfolding/extending the stock) and somewhat increased hipfire spread. PP-2000: 20-12.5, 650 RPM, 20 round mag, but offering significantly increased penetration abilities. Retains all attachments except the suppressor, but with the limitation that only one can be chosen from all 3 groups (and they will all reduce swap time further). MP7: 16.7-10, 950 RPM, 20 round mag. See above for the rest. UMP45: 34-10, but with range dropping off at about 4-5 meters instead of the current 8. Give it a little bit more up recoil and slightly less recoil recovery. Everything else can remain the same. P90: Fine the way it is. PP-19: 25-12.5, 700 RPM, 64 round mag. Essentially similar to the original PP-2000. PDW-R: 25-14.3, 750 RPM, 20 round mag, but with significantly reduced range (about 8m close to 25m far). Give it slightly more recoil and less recoil recovery. AS VAL: Not really sure how to balance this one. In real life, it's a pretty beast weapon, firing a big, heavy round at a high rate with decent accuracy. I'm going to go out on a limb here and propose a significant change: 30-12.5, low range, 900 RPM, 20 round mag (no extended), recoil, recovery, and spread increase similar to SCAR-H, accuracy/spread on par with the LMGs. Overpowered? Perhaps. These changes give it significant firepower at close range, but make it nearly useless at long range. Hmm... I do think it's fine and pretty unique the way it is currently, although it is depicted much differently than it is in real life. I know this is a mental exercise, but why even go through it? And if so, why are people inclined to BUFF the PDWs if they can be secondaries? Secondary weapons should give you a few extra bullets to finish off your foe, and an extreme close range advantage. I believe that the balance of the PDW's, sans the AS VAL, has been done extraordinarily well as primaries. And what, do you get to put attachments on them? If we entered this mythical world (don't really want to, but I guess I can get pulled through) and go MPs like MW2, then... PP2K: 20-12.5. At least DOUBLE the kick as it has currently. Sorry, it's stupid if it's an auto pistol that shoots like a laser, at any RPM above 350. Retain the 600 RPM. 44rds MP7: 15-9.1, 950 RPM. Highly increase the vertical recoil. 40rds. UMP/AS VAL/PDW/P90/PP-19 - no. Nope. Nah. None is short enough to be viable secondaries in place of a compact pistol.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 26, 2012 12:30:35 GMT -5
Yeah, PDW balance isn't really that bad right now, but I still think adding some slight close power punch to the slow firing PDWs wouldn't hurt. Also, that extended mag thing just needs to stop, not only for PDWs but also shotguns (and LMGs to a lighter degree). They're pretty mandatory attachments
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 26, 2012 14:07:41 GMT -5
Eh, I like balance discussions. I'd never call the PDWs balanced. I don't want them to be as good as class weapons, but I just find them pointless. Unless you want a close range option as a Recon, or you're an Engi who wants a primary that doesn't suck at range (VAL), there's no reason to use them. ARs, Carbines, and some LMGs are just as good if not better at close range. Plus their one somewhat unique quality (laser/flashlight + barrel attachment) is moot when some of them "require" extended. Hipfire is nice and all, but it's not good enough for me.
At the end of the day, I say just give them 44, 40, 64 and be done with it. If that's too much, go the VAL route and have extended integrated. So they can use whatever non-sight attachment they want, but only one: for example, silenced MP7 with 40 rounds.
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phale
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Post by phale on Jan 26, 2012 16:30:56 GMT -5
I know this is a mental exercise, but why even go through it? And if so, why are people inclined to BUFF the PDWs if they can be secondaries? Secondary weapons should give you a few extra bullets to finish off your foe, and an extreme close range advantage. I believe that the balance of the PDW's, sans the AS VAL, has been done extraordinarily well as primaries. And what, do you get to put attachments on them? If we entered this mythical world (don't really want to, but I guess I can get pulled through) and go MPs like MW2, then... PP2K: 20-12.5. At least DOUBLE the kick as it has currently. Sorry, it's stupid if it's an auto pistol that shoots like a laser, at any RPM above 350. Retain the 600 RPM. 44rds MP7: 15-9.1, 950 RPM. Highly increase the vertical recoil. 40rds. UMP/AS VAL/PDW/P90/PP-19 - no. Nope. Nah. None is short enough to be viable secondaries in place of a compact pistol. I'm sorry, I didn't make my post clear. In my proposal, only the PP-2000 and MP7 are moved to the secondary slot, for the purposes you stated yourself (the others are too large). The idea is that these two machine pistols are designed to offer increased firepower over other secondaries, at the cost of very slow swap time. I'm talking a swap time of 2 seconds or more, including unfolding/extending the stock and foregrip. Swapping back would also be slow, requiring the same actions. This way, these MPs would be competent against most primary weapons, but quick swapping and finishing off an enemy would be out of the picture. Using them would require tactical swapping and anticipating engagements, as well as the sacrifice of a true "backup" weapon. The attachments would also follow this philosophy, as they would increase capability while further slowing swap time. The other PDWs will remain in the primary slot, with the changes designed to adhere to the weapons' real life counterparts as closely as possible, while providing a small boost in order to differentiate them from the secondary PDWs. The only reason I mentioned the OP's post was because it gave me the idea to move SOME PDWs to the secondary slot, but retain others. I completely agree that the none of the PDWs aside from the PP-2000 and MP7 could conceivably be used as a sidearm.
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 26, 2012 18:05:57 GMT -5
I understand, but I quite like (at least one of those two) as primaries! This is my hypothetical perfect balance of gunplay. Why can't designers get this right? Sorry, off topic
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Post by didjeridu on Jan 26, 2012 19:04:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Too distracted by the pretty colors.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 27, 2012 5:08:14 GMT -5
With "effectiveness" do you mean straight up damage? Cause that probably won't work for say, bolt action rifles. I mean, a bolt rifle even though it's slow has still the potential to be the best mid-range weapon depending on the user
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Post by SheWolf on Jan 27, 2012 7:34:05 GMT -5
having bolt action rifles do 20 damage up close and 90 at 250 meters would be goofy as Foxtrot. i guess he really meant "effectiveness", as in "ease with which it can kill dudes" at the given distance. and i agree with him, this is how it should be. would make PDWs very specialized, but usefull weapon systems, would give every weapon it's niche without making one type useless..
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 27, 2012 8:36:03 GMT -5
having bolt action rifles do 20 damage up close and 90 at 250 meters would be goofy as Foxtrot. i guess he really meant "effectiveness", as in "ease with which it can kill dudes" at the given distance. and i agree with him, this is how it should be. would make PDWs very specialized, but usefull weapon systems, would give every weapon it's niche without making one type useless.. Indeed. And looking at the current BF3 balance, it's a bit off because of exceptions like the PKP and the F2000/FAMAS having too much close range punch. The one group of weapons that they did do a wonderful job on are the PDWs. Though, as primaries, they do need to balance them a bit more against each other. PP2K:25-12.5, 44rds. w/o extended. UMP: 25-14.3, 25rds. max PDW-R, pretty okay. P90: Wider hipfire. MP7: fine, maybe more starting magazines. AS VAL: fine. Having extended mags would unbalance it. If they do put it in Ext Mags (30 rds. according to IRL), then the damage should be 22-12.5 PP-19: 20-9.1, 64rds. standard. I was just thinking, with the PP-19's design, the tip end of the gun becomes lighter as the shooter drains the helical magazine... so that means that the gun should theoretically kick more as the magazine empties. Too bad they can't implement this o_0
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jan 27, 2012 10:23:41 GMT -5
That would be the perfect balance, but I still don't think it would fully work. distances are so scaled in this And I still think PDWs need damage buffs albeit small ones
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Post by rudybojangles on Jan 27, 2012 11:55:28 GMT -5
That would be the perfect balance, but I still don't think it would fully work. distances are so scaled in this And I still think PDWs need damage buffs albeit small ones Check my post above, most are buffs, only slight buffs though. For further clairification... And I believe that having role-bending weapons is tons of fun! For instance, AN-94 doubles as a DMR, and the F2000, which can be used similar to a carbine. Unfortunately, some weapons bend the rules and provide little downsize, such as the AEK-971, which can work it at close range and long range. If I was a balance designer, I would go into a game thinking about the above. Then, within each class, I would add general exceptions to the rules. HOWEVER, exceptions to rules have to be penalized with less effectiveness at traditional ranges. Take for instance the MP7. It is pretty awesome at killing beyond 15m even from the hip. However, it is also pretty awesome killing up close. What do you do? I would decrease close damage by a smidge so it doesn't kill as fast when you are close. I think that assault rifles should be 20 close max. Many other things... it would get very long-winded. Maybe later today I can discuss
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Post by raxcoswell on Jan 27, 2012 18:26:45 GMT -5
I'm guessing this chart is more relative than exact, because I totally agree with it on the whole, only you have the effective range of shotguns at like one metre
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Post by fazzmania on Jan 27, 2012 19:54:12 GMT -5
naturally. would take a lot of work to figure out the actual effective ranges, because it's based on so many factors.
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