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Post by didjeridu on Feb 17, 2012 17:54:52 GMT -5
I will shamelessly steal a thread from good ol' symthic. More info coming. Discuss... symthic.com/f/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=471Things of note-Previously speculated foregrip nerf hasn't changed, and is still moronic. -Overall damage increases and recoil decreases: quite surprising. -Big nerf to MP7/P90 hipfire, as well as a moderate nerf to all PDWs: makes no sense. Included in this, the UMP secures its position as the king of mediocrity. -SCAR is usable now, but not without them giving it a final kick to the groin (recoil). -SG553 slightly less terrible. -RPK and T88 changes are a joke, and change nothing. -MG36 actually competes with the M27 now, instead of outclassing it. -PKP loses its super duper min spread, but gets lowered recoil. Still outclasses M60. -M9 goes from cool to slightly cooler. -M416 gets slight nerf but M16 is untouched: what? -FAMAS gets lower recoil: what? -AK74M goes from pretty accurate to laser. I don't know what to think overall. Carbines are now completely terrible in the face of ARs and LMGs (not necessarily a bad thing). PDWs weren't great before, now they have no purpose. Hipfire was the one thing they had going for them. While still decent at it, I don't see why they thought it was necessary. The sniper rifle change is odd. M98's only real advantage now is bullet speed. The biggest thing I'm shocked about is the damage increases to weapons that don't need them. I understand the overall recoil decreases are to counteract the suck of the new foregrip, but I don't care. If half the weapons have lower horizontal recoil to begin with, why would I want the grip anymore? Fucking with min spread is just too much. The grip is the antithesis of precision now.
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Post by kirbyderby on Feb 17, 2012 19:32:38 GMT -5
I'm gonna miss my PKP and MP7. But hey, they buffed the G18.
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Post by SheWolf on Feb 17, 2012 19:37:46 GMT -5
moderate nerf to all PDWs...M416 gets slight nerf but M16 is untouched...FAMAS gets lower recoil...
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battleaxerx
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Post by battleaxerx on Feb 17, 2012 19:42:41 GMT -5
I'm kind of excited for this. They are kinda nerfing the high ROF weapons and buffing the slow ones it seems.
Famas' recoil is going to go to the side now, and will tend to pop up more when you start your shots. Overall, I'd call it an accuracy and usability nerf.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 18, 2012 3:23:08 GMT -5
All of these changes seem pretty reasonable, SCAR getting a niche again, engineers actually getting noticably worse at range (except for that SCAR ). All of them make sense (even the sniper damage nerfs, since they're getting a chest multiplier) except the PDW nerfs. Really, wtf at those. Hopefully the damage of .45 and 9mm rounds have been buffed or this is really really ungrounded cause this makes them really stoopid. Add in the G18 buff too. why. why. edit: oh, and that m416 nerf is pretty stupid too. Most likely demize has been looking at those console usage number (I say console, since I really don't see alot of M416s on PC; yet he said it's been the most used AR since release) which is just stupid. It used to have a slight point over the M16, now it's just completely outclassed, and that's just dumb. Love the AK-74m change though edito nr.2: why do you think the foregrip change is that silly? It's unrealisitc; sure, I can agree with that, but it really promotes different attachment usage.
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 18, 2012 10:58:28 GMT -5
edito nr.2: why do you think the foregrip change is that silly? It's unrealisitc; sure, I can agree with that, but it really promotes different attachment usage. That's all well and good, but there are only two attachments for the second slot. I hate the way the bipod is now, and even if it functioned well, I'd still hate it. I don't want an attachment that slows me down, and forces me to hump chest high walls or the ground to get any benefit. I can kind of understand making a blank slot feasible, but the foregrip now has no purpose. Lowering recoil is meant to improve accuracy, yet it goes and does the opposite. It would almost be acceptable if it just increased the rate of spread increase and/or the max spread, but it increases min spread. The millisecond your gun decides that it's spread time, the next bullet is farther away from your sights than ever before. To me, that makes the recoil boon of the grip useless in comparison. Recoil can be controlled either through aim or limiting your fire. Spread can only be controlled through limiting fire. I'd rather have total control over how my gun fires, rather than bending to its will. Now I'll be picking blank in my second slot not because it's the best option for me (which it is), but because I hate all 2 of the attachment choices. The rail doesn't count, since it's basically equal to blank, and only for ARs. I know I've said this before, but I don't care if the foregrip has a downside. This downside in particular though, it just stupid. To me, the foregrip is now the new FS. Of course that's all assuming the min spread change applies to both ADS and hipfire. If it applied to hipfire only, I wouldn't care in the slightest.
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 18, 2012 12:52:55 GMT -5
I had such a sad when I was reading all of the changes last night. Here is a complete list of what they did wrong: - Buffed all assault rifles. Like they needed a buff, now stupid assault players really don't even need to aim well, they can just hit legs and win. This even goes for the faster 5.56 LMGs too. Ugh.
- M98B, they simultaneously broke it in both core (lower close damage, making it worthless) and hardc0r3 (made it godlike at any feasible range, one shot kill <120 no head shot)
- Non SKS semi-autos got buffed for no reason, they are completely fine and should be used as MARKSMAN TOOLS, not as leg weed whackers.
- They DESTROYED shotguns at very close range, and gave them marginal ability at further range. I don't know about the scattershot changes, we'll have to test them out, but they don't look good.
- NERF of HBAR on AN-94 and G3A1, wat. These combos weren't overpowered...
- AEK, less right recoil could make it pull to the left, but generally, lowering recoil on good guns is bad, mkay?
- FAMAS, wtf, it looks similar to what it did, with a similar first shot recoil followed by LESS recoil. What.
- An ACROSS THE BOARD NERF OF THE PDWs, because lord knows they were overpowered, right? RIGHT?
- G18, what.
Not pleased DICE, not pleased.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 18, 2012 14:07:36 GMT -5
Shotgun change could be okay...if there's more pellets and spread numbers have changed. We don't know that. I would honestly prefer a shotgun with low damage but super tight spread over the blunderbusses we have now. The extra range is a cherry on top. Please let it be this Also, lol @ flash suppressor. "Foregrip needs a downside". Add in an attachment that doesn't negatively affects some weapons. what "Famas = op. Attachments remove its downsides". remove 1 downside (recoil) by default. "My god, those PDWs sure are accurate from the hip at close range. Man oh man, what in the world was I thinking!" Demize is the brain fart king edito nr.2: why do you think the foregrip change is that silly? It's unrealisitc; sure, I can agree with that, but it really promotes different attachment usage. That's all well and good, but there are only two attachments for the second slot. I hate the way the bipod is now, and even if it functioned well, I'd still hate it. I don't want an attachment that slows me down, and forces me to hump chest high walls or the ground to get any benefit. I can kind of understand making a blank slot feasible, but the foregrip now has no purpose. Lowering recoil is meant to improve accuracy, yet it goes and does the opposite. It would almost be acceptable if it just increased the rate of spread increase and/or the max spread, but it increases min spread. The millisecond your gun decides that it's spread time, the next bullet is farther away from your sights than ever before. To me, that makes the recoil boon of the grip useless in comparison. Recoil can be controlled either through aim or limiting your fire. Spread can only be controlled through limiting fire. I'd rather have total control over how my gun fires, rather than bending to its will. Now I'll be picking blank in my second slot not because it's the best option for me (which it is), but because I hate all 2 of the attachment choices. The rail doesn't count, since it's basically equal to blank, and only for ARs. I know I've said this before, but I don't care if the foregrip has a downside. This downside in particular though, it just stupid. To me, the foregrip is now the new FS. Of course that's all assuming the min spread change applies to both ADS and hipfire. If it applied to hipfire only, I wouldn't care in the slightest. I kinda get what you're getting at, but the ADS spread increase is minimal and adding either a silencer or a heavy barrel and the effect is nullified. I think they went overkill with nerfing the foregrip by both decreasing the percentage it decreases recoil as well as that spread change. But hey, at least you can slap a MASS/M320 on your gun without coming off like an idiot
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 18, 2012 14:18:46 GMT -5
Oh, just saw demize posted over there. Looky: "The G3 also gets the 34 damage boost up close. There's good comments here on the m416 and Aks74u, PDW-R and others. Yes this is real data, no I can't give a date, no all of this is not set in stone. Also, the changes to attachments puts several of the weapon changes in a different light. not all of the changes have been posted in the first post. I'm sure he's still working, it is a lot of data and changes. Finally there is a new upper chest hitbox with a 1.25x for sniper bullets only. This is the reason for the change to the m98b max DMG. I'm hesitant to give it a longer 1hk distance in core, as I think there's then little reason to use other bolt action weapons. Maybe a slight edge to make up for the 5 bullet mag." Good. He's at least recognizing he went wrong with the PDWs. In fact, those and the M416 + AKs-74u "buff" were the only real ones that really bothered me. We denizens should post some feedback over there too
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Feb 18, 2012 17:38:56 GMT -5
I like a few of these changes, but for most of them... I think Demize has lost his marbles. First off, I don't know why they are tweaking almost every weapon in the game when only a few needed changes.
but the biggest "WTF" moment was when I read that the FAMAS is getting an overall BUFF, while the M416 and L85A2 are getting overall nerfs........ umm, the f*ck?
A while ago Demize tweeted that he thought the FAMAS was blatantly OP and was getting a significant nerf. Now it's becoming MORE accurate?? Out of all the imbalanced guns in BF3, no gun was more OP than the FAMAS. And the M416 was the king of mediocrity, the most boring and average gun you could pick. And it's getting nerfed?
I'm pleased with: - Buff to G3, SCAR-H, M60 and M240B - Buff to flash supressor and HBAR - Addition of extended mags to AS VAL - Nerfs to MG36 and PKP - Buff to AK-74m and "buff" to SG553 if you wanna call it that
WTF updates: - Buff to FAMAS?!?!? - Buff to G18?!?!?! - Nerf to the most average weapon ever made: the M416 - okay... this one really gets me.... NERF TO PDWS?!?!? Is everyone at DICE off their rocker?!? PDWs were already a complete joke, before this they were rumored to be getting a BUFF - Increased minimum damage across the board to all assault rifles - they already blew away the SMGs and Carbines. Unnecessary buff - Accuracy nerf to AEK - this weapon already has horrible long range accuracy. On top of that, they are buffing its competitors: the F2000 and FAMAS. - Nerf to AN-94. Honestly, I never saw anybody using this gun in the first place. This updated discourages the use of the 2 round burst and buffs the full-auto spray. Great job. - Shotgun changes - umm, so let me get this straight: they are nerfing flachette and buckshot, and then leaving the semi-auto/full-auto frag rounds the same? (shouldn't be suprised, if you follow Demize's tweets, he's always been biased towards frag rounds) - Nerf to foregrip - what an absolute joke. Force people to switch to bipod and noob tube, promote more tactical loitering and tubing. WTF Dice. - Nerf to supressor - Another joke.
TBH I don't know if I'll keep playing this game once this patch comes out. Back to BC2.
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 18, 2012 20:42:30 GMT -5
That's how I am feeling right now.
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 18, 2012 23:53:45 GMT -5
Some additions now that there's more info:
-Sniper rifles get chest shot kills at close range. Unnecessary but not game-breaking.
-Pump slugs went from highly situational, to useless. Slightly more range for sure, but they need the chest multiplier like the sniper rifles if they even want a chance at competing with auto slugs. Even assuming you're in range to maintain 100 damage, flailing arms really lower your chances. Slugs are too slow and drop happy for reliable headshots.
-Pump frags are back to completely outclassing pump slugs. 50 min damage for a hit, 40 for missing in closed spaces, and with less drop.
-Auto slugs reign supreme. If that supposed semi-auto RoF issue gets fixed, then say hello to battle rifles for every class.
-Buckshot and Flechette...pointless. They take the one thing they're good at, and kill it. I'd rather have the damage up close than slightly farther damage range. With overall weaker shots, RoF is even more important than before. The USAS cements its position as king, and the 870 is left in the dust. Along with the slug/frag changes, it's like they're saying shotguns are now grenade launchers and rifles only. You want a close range weapon? Use a PDW...oh wait.
-HBAR changes...I don't know. I can't comment until I know what weapons retain spread increases. I bet it's only the good weapons though.
-G3 returned to glory, and it gets even sexier. Really tough decision between HBAR and the FS. If the HBAR increases velocity though, I know what I'm picking.
-AN-94, why? Regardless of how accurate it is, it's still the same damage as other ARs. Removing the god-like synergy with the HBAR is one thing, but increasing first shot recoil (wasn't it supposed to be .67 before, not 1.5?) really craps on bursting. Now with the overall decrease in recoil and slight damage bump, full-auto ARs get even deadlier. Why even limit yourself with burst weapons anymore?
-I'm interested to know what weapons don't receive a FS hipfire penalty. If I had to guess, it's probably PDWs: the weapons who need FS the least.
-And since I never bothered commenting before, I like the M93R change I guess. It'll make aiming the thing less futile, which is always nice. Now if only it they gave it a silencer. The G18 is still better, yet it gets a silencer. What gives? It doesn't have to be a silencer either. Give it a laser. Even a flashlight. Something, anything.
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Feb 19, 2012 21:19:12 GMT -5
Of all the things in this patch, nothing upsets me more than the nerf to the AS VAL.... I haven't hit rank 45 yet to I haven't unlocked it for multiplayer but i've been grinding and i've been getting so close, so excited to finally use it..... I've played the "Comrades" single player mission so many times just to use the thing at all, now it's going to be absolutely pitiful post patch...
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Post by mrite on Feb 20, 2012 1:19:49 GMT -5
it will still have e mags to make it better, now its just a silenced AEK rather than a silenced AEK with a really good foregrip and smaller magazines
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 20, 2012 6:04:40 GMT -5
Except that the AEK is getting nerfed.
So it's gonna be a pinpoint accurate AEK with standard silencer with better recoil, but slightly less power up close Aside from a bit more recoil, it's getting buffed man
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Post by swyck on Feb 20, 2012 12:21:45 GMT -5
- Increased minimum damage across the board to all assault rifles - they already blew away the SMGs and Carbines. Unnecessary buff Are you so sure about that? If you go on any BF3 forum one topic that comes up frequently is engineer >> support > assault, and for many there is no reason to play anything other than engineer. Unless you're a 24x7 Metro roller. IMO making ARs >> carbines goes a long ways to improving the standing of assault as a class. Paper, rock scissors - if you want to shoot tanks you have to be an engineer, but assault then shoots you, especially at range. Not saying it really works that way, but that should the concept. So the question with these changes isn't just theoverall mix between weapons but also between classes. Is assault the clear buff winner here?
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 20, 2012 13:31:04 GMT -5
- Increased minimum damage across the board to all assault rifles - they already blew away the SMGs and Carbines. Unnecessary buff Are you so sure about that? If you go on any BF3 forum one topic that comes up frequently is engineer >> support > assault, and for many there is no reason to play anything other than engineer. Unless you're a 24x7 Metro roller. IMO making ARs >> carbines goes a long ways to improving the standing of assault as a class. Paper, rock scissors - if you want to shoot tanks you have to be an engineer, but assault then shoots you, especially at range. Not saying it really works that way, but that should the concept. So the question with these changes isn't just theoverall mix between weapons but also between classes. Is assault the clear buff winner here? Assault rifles have always had more utility (except up close) than engineers with their carbines. Only the best engi weapons were better than the worst Assault Rifles. (AK-74M vs M4A1, M4 usually wins that one. Otherwise, every other rifle is better) Gun on gun, fine. But equipment on equipment, the M320 blows away the RPG for anti-infantry and usefulness. And remember, the Assault can get in a tank just like everyone else, so there is your anti-vehicle. I understand the move to make assault rifles the penultimate anti-infantry weapon, but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Carbines take 8 bullets if you are hitting legs at range, Assault rifles take 7. There is still an advantage, but DICE in their infinite wisdom just made it unnecessary to aim with assault rifles. Why not keep the skill element of the weapons? It's not like they are losing at range to carbines EVER.
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 20, 2012 13:57:04 GMT -5
Looks like new damage numbers were released. PDWs, PP-2000, PP-19 ->12.5 min AS VAL -> 18.4 min UMP ->13.75 min PDW-R -> 14.3 min P90, MP7 -> 11 min Given hipfire nerfs, still not good enough for me Bye bye MP7. The PP-19 is looking slightly better though, and the PDW/AS VAL are both looking nice. I've given up trying to tweet Demize99's ear off about my beloved (apparently OP) MP7.
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Post by SheWolf on Feb 20, 2012 14:29:48 GMT -5
also demize just talked about a few things on the symthic board.
appearently g18 and m416 changes were tossed. there is still tinkering with the m98b going on. also, the shotgun changes are going to see some tinkering, since he doesn't inted to weaken but to buff them for slightly longer effective ranges.
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 20, 2012 15:58:38 GMT -5
also demize just talked about a few things on the symthic board. appearently g18 and m416 changes were tossed. there is still tinkering with the m98b going on. also, the shotgun changes are going to see some tinkering, since he doesn't inted to weaken but to buff them for slightly longer effective ranges. That's good. Shotguns (real ones, not grenade launchers) are gimp enough in BF. They need loving if anything. And I never liked the M416 in BF3, but they really love to hate it. I'm honestly surprised the M16 never gets tweaked. IMO, it's still hands down the best all around AR, and one of the best weapons in the game. And I'm kind of liking the new PDW numbers, but still, I'd rather have the old numbers and hipfire retained. Although with the new numbers, the PP2000 just craps all over the UMP. Seriously, what's their deal with the UMP? They must have some serious grudge against it. At least the PP-19 wouldn't be useless anymore. In fact, with those numbers I'd easily toss out the P90 for good.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 20, 2012 17:23:07 GMT -5
Someone on the Symthic forums also said he/she remembered him saying the pdw hipfire nerfs are being thrown out too. Let's hope so.
Symthic's got new numbers...let's see what Demize has brewed
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Post by Keralastic on Feb 20, 2012 18:19:16 GMT -5
That's good. Shotguns (real ones, not grenade launchers) are gimp enough in BF. They need loving if anything. And I never liked the M416 in BF3, but they really love to hate it. I'm honestly surprised the M16 never gets tweaked. IMO, it's still hands down the best all around AR, and one of the best weapons in the game. And I'm kind of liking the new PDW numbers, but still, I'd rather have the old numbers and hipfire retained. Although with the new numbers, the PP2000 just craps all over the UMP. Seriously, what's their deal with the UMP? They must have some serious grudge against it. At least the PP-19 wouldn't be useless anymore. In fact, with those numbers I'd easily toss out the P90 for good. Considering how many people complained that the UMP and the M416 were overpowered in the beta, they probably just want to be careful about them so they don't make them "OP" again.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 20, 2012 19:21:19 GMT -5
m416 was damn op in the beta. It made you a giraffe for gods sake
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Post by didjeridu on Feb 20, 2012 19:55:44 GMT -5
m416 was gosh darn golly gee whiz op in the beta. It made you a giraffe for gods sake
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Feb 21, 2012 11:09:48 GMT -5
Except that the AEK is getting nerfed. So it's gonna be a pinpoint accurate AEK with standard silencer with better recoil, but slightly less power up close Aside from a bit more recoil, it's getting buffed man The only "buff" is the extended mags, which it doesn't need. Extended mags takes away from the flavor of the gun, it forced you to be precise and not waste bullets being capped at 20 rounds per mag. The gun took some practice to use before, let it stay that way. Other than that, the recoil is getting drastically increased, the range is being cut in half, and the minimum damage buff doesn't make any difference - it still takes the exact same number of bullets to kill as before. Overall it's just becoming a sh*tty AEK clone
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 21, 2012 14:21:56 GMT -5
Except that the AEK is getting nerfed. So it's gonna be a pinpoint accurate AEK with standard silencer with better recoil, but slightly less power up close Aside from a bit more recoil, it's getting buffed man The only "buff" is the extended mags, which it doesn't need. Extended mags takes away from the flavor of the gun, it forced you to be precise and not waste bullets being capped at 20 rounds per mag. The gun took some practice to use before, let it stay that way. Other than that, the recoil is getting drastically increased, the range is being cut in half, and the minimum damage buff doesn't make any difference - it still takes the exact same number of bullets to kill as before. Overall it's just becoming a sh*tty AEK clone Seen you crying on the MW3 boards, but come on troll, have some perspective. The changes greatly enhance the viability of the weapon. You can leg-shot (happens all of the time on silenced weapons) and kill in as many bullets as if you chest-shot, and your claim that it is a "doo-dooty clone" of the AEK actually makes it the most attractive of the PDWs, because the AEK is the most attractive infantry weapon as it currently stands. You should be rejoicing that a once niche weapon is becoming an assault rifle which you can use with EVERY class. Or do you only play Assault? Yeah, I thought so.
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Post by raxcoswell on Feb 21, 2012 14:44:43 GMT -5
so hey guys what's up i go away for a long weekend and all this has gone down. i can't even follow, so much happening. someone help me.
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 21, 2012 15:09:27 GMT -5
so hey guys what's up i go away for a long weekend and all this has gone down. i can't even follow, so much happening. someone help me. To sum it up: For the most part... PARTY TIME IS OVEROh, and the 7.62 guns are getting awesome.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Feb 21, 2012 15:10:30 GMT -5
The only "buff" is the extended mags, which it doesn't need. Extended mags takes away from the flavor of the gun, it forced you to be precise and not waste bullets being capped at 20 rounds per mag. The gun took some practice to use before, let it stay that way. Other than that, the recoil is getting drastically increased, the range is being cut in half, and the minimum damage buff doesn't make any difference - it still takes the exact same number of bullets to kill as before. Overall it's just becoming a sh*tty AEK clone Seen you crying on the MW3 boards, but come on troll, have some perspective. The changes greatly enhance the viability of the weapon. You can leg-shot (happens all of the time on silenced weapons) and kill in as many bullets as if you chest-shot, and your claim that it is a "doo-dooty clone" of the AEK actually makes it the most attractive of the PDWs, because the AEK is the most attractive infantry weapon as it currently stands. You should be rejoicing that a once niche weapon is becoming an assault rifle which you can use with EVERY class. Or do you only play Assault? Yeah, I thought so. Not to mention perfect initial accuracy, while the AEK is apparently getting 0.4 initial accuray So; recap VAL vs AEK - Similiar recoil (as in, high) - Same capaticity, rate of fire - Perfect initial accuracy. That is gosh darn golly gee whiz huge advantage, especially for an all-kit weapon - Comes with default silencer - Better bullet drop (even though its silenced) - Slight loss of damage up close. However, if the AEK hit a limb 1 time they'd be on even level - (I'm not sure on this one) I think it has carbine on-the-move spreads for sighting and hipfire. The only thing I don't agree with is the halving of its range, and that change might even be revisited. so yeah Besides, it's always been an AEK clone To sum it up: For the most part... PARTY TIME IS OVEROh, and the 7.62 guns are getting awesome. PARTY TIME IS OVER STARTINGunless you used a PDW. then you're the guy whose standing alone in the corner.
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Post by rudybojangles on Feb 21, 2012 15:17:17 GMT -5
PARTY TIME IS OVER STARTINGunless you used a PDW. then you're the guy whose standing alone in the corner. PARTY TIME IS OVER for me
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