adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Feb 24, 2012 15:00:30 GMT -5
The game at the current moment: Melee range: Panic-knife / Akimbo MPs / Shotguns win Close range: Akimbo MPs / Shotguns win Short range: Akimbo MPs win Medium-short range: Akimbo MPs tie with snipers and assault rifles Medium range: Snipers and assault rifles Medium-Long range: Snipers and assault rifles Long range: Hardly exists in MW3
Where's the LMGs? Where's the SMGs?
They're both completly overshadowed by assault rifles and machine pistols.
Some of the best players I know of in MW3 use akimbo machinepistols almost exclusively on small maps, like 90% of all the maps in the game.
Besides, you forgot pistols.
On which range should pistols beat machine pistols, SMGs, shotguns, snipers and assault rifles? They shouldn't, because they're secondaries.
This is my ideal game:
Melee range: Shotguns > SMGs > Panic-knife > LMGs = ARs > MPs > Pistols > Snipers
Close range: Shotguns > SMGs > LMGs = ARs > Pistols = MPs > Snipers
Short range: SMGs > Shotguns > ARs > LMGs > Pistols > MPs > Snipers
Medium-short range: SMGs = ARs > LMGs > Pistols > MPs > Sniper
Medium range: ARs > LMGs = SMGs = Snipers > MPs > Pistols
Medium-long range: Burst fire ARs = Snipers > ARs = LMGs > SMGs > MPs > Pistols
Long range: Snipers > LMGs > Burst-fire ARs > ARs > SMGs > MPs = Pistols
Melee: 0-3 meters Close: 3-10 meters Short: 10-20 meters Short-medium 20-30 meters Medium range: 30-50 meters Medium-Long range: 50-100 meters Long range: 100+ meters (10 seconds worth of sprint while using an SMG while on the juiced deathstreak)
It could've written the stats to fit this plot in one freaking single farking day.
General gist: SMG > MPs: SMGs are more accurate and deals more damage faster on all ranges, end of. MPs > Pistols: Machine pistols deals more damage faster on close range Pistols > MPs: Pistols retain damage longer, and provide better accuracy
ARs > LMGs: ARs have better hip-fire and better accuracy ARs = LMGs: ARs and LMGs kill in the same time in areas where hip-fire isn't plausible with ARs, and on close range they're equal because the hip-fire is similar enough to not give the fight away LMGs > ARs: LMGs retain their damage on long range
Snipers: 50 damage on short range --> 70 damage on medium range, OR autoaim off on short short range, WHILE sway is lower allowing them to actually fire accurately on longer ranges.
... I thought programmers learned statistics and mathemathics?!?
...I suspect the number-crunching has been left to the designers and not the programmers...
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 24, 2012 15:23:32 GMT -5
Why the Foxtrot should secondaries be backups? SECONDARY AS IN ALTERNATIVE. Because there's this perk. You may heard of it. It's called Overkill. Where's the LMGs? Where's the SMGs? For that matter, brutalonslaught, where are the pistols?
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Post by bropocalypse on Feb 24, 2012 15:26:20 GMT -5
That said, it makes sense that machine pistols are dominant close up. Super close up, at least. The only thing that should be able to beat them is a shotgun, which is true right now. No, it doesn't. The automatic CQC primary weapon class, i.e. SMGs, should absolutely dominate machine pistols. I do agree that using fire rate to balance akimbo MPs is ludicrous: the obvious solution is to simply increase hip spread. They don't even have to go to Black Ops extremes on this: PP2000 or SMG akimbo from MW2 would be a huge improvement over current affairs. (On that note, I miss SMG akimbo: if we had access to PP90 akimbo, no one would probably be complaining about akimbo FMGs and we would have a good excuse to buff the doo-doo out of shotguns.) But SMGs aren't CQC. SMGs still take two hands. CQC isn't about two hands, with the exception of the shotgun. CQC is about quick damage that doesn't need to be aimed. Not sure I'd like akimbo SMGs - they'd be too powerful. My K/D was twice as high in MW2 than MW3, in part because I'm much more willing to experiment in MW3 and in part because I played MW2 almost exclusively in touch football with akimbo p90s. I feel as if the range on those were shorter than akimbo MP here, but I'd run a loop through the closest parts of various maps and just tear anything apart. Akimbo SMGs would just exacerbate the issue. Then again, maybe it would make Overkill more worthwhile...
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Post by cashmoves on Feb 24, 2012 15:51:34 GMT -5
Why the Foxtrot should secondaries be backups? SECONDARY AS IN ALTERNATIVE. 0 range - knife very short range - mps short range - smgs medium range - ARs long range - LMGs very long range - sniper This is HOW THE GAME WORKS AT THE MOMENT. The MPs are only effective at very short range, they DO NOT work at long range because of their recoil. I know, I use them, I kill lots of people with them and I rarely die by them. If I know someone is using them I modify my play style immediately and crush them. If I'm using a SMG I won't even change my playstyle. Why is it ludicrous to not use your assault rifle in CQC and drop it for something more mobile? Ever fired an assault rifle? I have, I wouldn't ever use one indoors. Any of you know anyone in the special forces? They don't even like using MP5Ks inside, they will drop it and pull their pistol because mobility and speed trump power. Akimbo MPs should take twice as long to pull out but in terms of power they are absolutely fine. I think it's probably more your skill and reaction times (or lack of) that's the problem. I wish I could get killed by stats in Elite like in Black Ops. I reckon I've been killed less than 200 times by MPs from over 8k deaths. I don't normally do this, but this is just wrong. are you trying to tell me the mp9 is shit at medium range? THAT is news to me and this entire community. also, this is about game design and balance, not pseudo-arguments by analogy to reality.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 24, 2012 15:54:31 GMT -5
I prefer the "secondary as in alternative" approach myself. Overkill should circumvent movement penalties or go the way of the dinosaur.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Feb 24, 2012 15:59:19 GMT -5
An UMP and an MP5 can be wielded in one hand with ease. The problem is that they're too heavy to aim fast, using only one hand.
The same problem applies to machine-pistols and even regular pistols: Aiming with one hand simply doesn't work well enough to hit reliably on 7-10 meters range, which is a range you will find in many households and in every public building.
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adw1983
True Bro
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Post by adw1983 on Feb 24, 2012 16:02:23 GMT -5
I prefer the "secondary as in alternative" approach myself. Overkill should circumvent movement penalties or go the way of the dinosaur. Why? Why do you not want SMGs to be a viable class option? That is the result of MPs being a free second primary weapon class.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 24, 2012 16:22:52 GMT -5
From Robert Bowling's tweet:
If they don't mess up again, you can look forward to a weekend of play with further nerfed MP Akimbos. The change is again about RoF reduction.
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Post by Marvel4 on Feb 24, 2012 16:34:48 GMT -5
WTF!!! I don't know what to say...
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asasa
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fuck
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2012 16:42:03 GMT -5
You're... mad..aboutanakimbonerf?
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Post by Marvel4 on Feb 24, 2012 16:46:15 GMT -5
I'm mad because a reduced rate of fire is absolutely pointless.
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Post by tmkruelty on Feb 24, 2012 16:51:15 GMT -5
This is HOW THE GAME WORKS AT THE MOMENT. The MPs are only effective at very short range, they DO NOT work at long range because of their recoil. You're forgetting akimbo scorpions. The only true laser in the game after the MP7.
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asasa
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fuck
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Post by asasa on Feb 24, 2012 17:45:10 GMT -5
Or just use akimbo FMGs and lol at how quick it hits the recoil ceiling.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 24, 2012 17:57:50 GMT -5
But SMGs aren't CQC. SMGs still take two hands. CQC isn't about two hands I am the PM9 and I find this post offensive.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 24, 2012 18:02:24 GMT -5
I'm mad because a reduced rate of fire is absolutely pointless. This. The problem with the Brokimbo MP's is that they're too accurate, let them keep their power but give them BLOPs brokimbo SMG hip fire. Still deadly at CQC however only within ~10ft as opposed to being mowed down at 50ft by a guy with Stalker FMG9X2's.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 24, 2012 18:08:45 GMT -5
From Robert Bowling's tweet: If they don't mess up again, you can look forward to a weekend of play with further nerfed MP Akimbos. The change is again about RoF reduction. To answer a question on what platforms this will affect, his answer is: "All of them".
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 24, 2012 19:20:55 GMT -5
@witty Well 402 also said "all of the shotguns" except for the Striker got buffed. 402's Intel is shoddy at best as the IW devs don't tell him squat.
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richardj
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For the love of gawd, stop whining!
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Post by richardj on Feb 24, 2012 20:13:05 GMT -5
Carrying 2 of a weapon shouldn't affect RoF when holding down a trigger. WTF! Spread on akimbo MPs should be ultra-wide and increased recoil on single MPs limit effectiveness making pistols, SMGs, and thus Overkill more valuable (balance).
Shotguns and LMGs are a simple fix as well if you think about it. Sorry shottie users, it isn't another buff--more like balancing so that they fit into their niche more consistently.
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Post by Marvel4 on Feb 24, 2012 20:33:40 GMT -5
I just hope they remove Akimbo from the next game and make machine pistols primaries. It's bulldoo-doo anyway. -.-
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 24, 2012 21:05:19 GMT -5
Shotguns and LMGs are a simple fix as well if you think about it. Sorry shottie users, it isn't another buff--more like balancing so that they fit into their niche more consistently. The LMGs aren't necessarily a simple fix.
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Post by dshunter on Feb 25, 2012 5:53:59 GMT -5
I'm mad because a reduced rate of fire is absolutely pointless. This x 100. So they made Akimbo'd MPs fire at 75% RoF last time. Let me guess - make it 50% this time? Which would mean that the TTK would be (nearly) identical to the single version, but obviously you'd be able to shoot for twice as long before having to reload. Every little bit helps, I guess, but IW ignoring the (obvious) problem of the narrow hip-fire spread is simply mind-boggling.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Feb 25, 2012 10:50:47 GMT -5
Medium-short range: Akimbo MPs tie with snipers and assault rifles All credibility lost with this. Pistols have a quicker switch time but should not be the best at any range. Does anyone understand balance? It's not just about TTK.
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Post by Marvel4 on Feb 26, 2012 10:14:28 GMT -5
Every little bit helps, I guess, but IW ignoring the (obvious) problem of the narrow hip-fire spread is simply mind-boggling. I think I know why they don't change the spread. They're too lazy. Changing six values (minimum and maximum spread for all three stances) takes more time than changing one value (rate of fire). LOL.
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asasa
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fuck
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Post by asasa on Feb 26, 2012 10:26:31 GMT -5
Medium-short range: Akimbo MPs tie with snipers and assault rifles All credibility lost with this. Pistols have a quicker switch time but should not be the best at any range. Does anyone understand balance? It's not just about TTK. What? Anyway, pistols should always be better than MPs. Ease of use vs power.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Feb 26, 2012 13:55:24 GMT -5
Why u mad bro?
MACHINE pistol.
Pistols should have a tighter hip fire and faster switch time but they should be of equal power to MPs (obviously I'm excluding hand cannons).
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 26, 2012 15:05:51 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that pistols DON'T switch as fast as they did in previous games.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Feb 26, 2012 15:37:44 GMT -5
Why u mad bro? MACHINE pistol. In real life, the FN Five-seveN shits all over every machine pistol in this game, especially on armored targets. But this is a game and we want balance and options. Don't bring real life properties into this.
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Post by Marvel4 on Feb 26, 2012 15:58:00 GMT -5
In real life, the FN Five-seveN doo-doos all over every machine pistol in this game, especially on armored targets. Kinetic energy is lower though, and it's less effective at range. So low damage isn't that unrealistic.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Feb 26, 2012 16:27:15 GMT -5
Frankly, this comment stems from a misinterpretation of the role of an SMG in Call of Duty; SMGs are more mobile AR counterparts that sacrifice a measure of ranged capability for superior handling characteristics. SMGs tend to have higher rates of fire than ARs but the SMGs that have higher damage outputs than ARs even in what is commonly thought of as "SMG range" are few and far between.
Given these distinctions there's no reason SMGs can't coexist peacefully with MP secondaries so long as the MP secondaries are appropriately balanced to function either as strictly close-quarters combat weapons or as "lesser" SMGs. As long as this balance is maintained, the two complement each other very well; after all, mobility is a big part of using a close-quarters weapon effectively.
For example, just look at MW2. SMGs coexisted peacefully with MPs and some remarkably competent shotgun secondaries. The SPAS-12 was a great fit for a silenced UMP flanking/rushing class, for example, and if you wanted to run Cold-Blooded instead for maximum stealth, there were the akimbo G18s. The Vector was a great alternate to the UMP, trading a three hit kill at any range for less recoil and a higher rate of fire. Another example would by the MP5K and M93 Raffica. You could use the MP5K for its sweet time-to-kill in close-quarters combat with the M93 to round out the MP5K's middle-ranged capabilities where its mule-like kick begins adversely affect its accuracy.
To use some examples from MW3, an akimbo MP like the FMG9 made a good backup for the MP7, which is accurate but doesn't pack the close range punch of say, the PP90M1; conversely, a player with a PP90M1 or PM9 might choose to invest in an MP9 or akimbo Skorpions to augment their mid-range performance (or at least, they might before the Skorps were nerfed to hell).
The problem in MW3, though, is that the line between SMGs and MPs was blurred by overly-competent MPs that are capable of competing directly with the lesser SMGs.
Anyway, SMGs and MP secondaries can definitely coexist and I find it adds a layer of depth to the game beyond just running a Strela or a pistol that you'll replace with the gun of the first guy you kill.
As for handguns, I think they should be relatively easy to balance with machine pistols. Ease of use vs. power, like asasa said. A magnum that can kill in 2-3 bullets with a fast swap, tighter hip-spread and the option to use attachments like the Tacticool Knife can certainly be an attractive alternative to MPs for some players... but MW3 again pretty much usurped that role by giving every secondary access to fast swap via SoH Pro and making handguns worse in just about every way...
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Feb 26, 2012 19:34:40 GMT -5
Medium-short range: Akimbo MPs tie with snipers and assault rifles All credibility lost with this. Pistols have a quicker switch time but should not be the best at any range. Does anyone understand balance? It's not just about TTK. I was stating how the game runs right now. On short-medium range, I often get wall-of-lead'ed by akimbo FMG9s killing me faster than a shotgun would on short range. Not to MENTION hardcore. Two bullets for the kill, on any range, firing exactly one gazillion rounds per second, it will kill you in exactly 0 seconds without even aiming.
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