eLantern
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"Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned! Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee!" - Bender
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Post by eLantern on Apr 4, 2012 12:09:46 GMT -5
Suppression is way too good now and the Foregrip was a bit over-nerfed... IMO. Otherwise, I like the changes.
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Post by unforgivenxile on Apr 5, 2012 4:20:01 GMT -5
^ Completely agree.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 11:07:20 GMT -5
Suppression is way too good now and the Foregrip was a bit over-nerfed... IMO. Otherwise, I like the changes. I rather like the new suppression mechanic. Before the patch, I would try to suppress Assaults and Recons, and they would just fire back a perfectly-aimed burst/shot at my head. Now, when I know they are there, I know I can suppress them. Whenever I get suppressed, I dive to the nearest cover. If I can't do that, I throw some rounds at them and make a run for it. It really is rewarding when you can outplay someone through more than just aiming. THAT BEING SAID... I make sure someone on our squad is running Squad Cover/ Suppression Resistance/ whatever it's called. It is invaluable, and for the most part, puts suppression back where it was before the patch. Really, it's a new game, and I like the tactical direction it went in. I still think that suppression could be balanced around certain guns: SKS suppresses too much, now that it's an actual viable gun to use in combat. Low RPM variants of the 5.56mm round guns cannot suppress like their higher RPM brothers. Worry not, you non-fans of the new mechanics: suppression will be toned down, according to the ex-lead developer of the multiplayer. RE: Foregrip. I don't think it was overnerfed. In fact, I think that it compliments the HBar EXTREMELY well. Try it with most guns which often have extra horizontal kick, and you'll notice that it's more accurate and more controllable than a naked gun. Sure, it's not like the old Suppressor-Foregrip combo, but now everyone is on the same playing field, so you must adapt to survive.
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Post by SheWolf on Apr 5, 2012 11:16:15 GMT -5
i tried to applie a real world tactic yesterday, with more success than i would have expected in an rather arcady game like bf3.
simply put: you both wait in cover. one aims down in the general direction of danger, the other makes a run for it. once the other one is at his desired destination, he aims in the general direction of danger and the second one goes.
if someone surprises you while you run across, you are no longer dead for sures, you got a very real chance that your buddy can either supress the enemy enough for you to make it, or even kill him/them.
we made it through grand bazar rush on attack side 14-0 and 17-1 yesterday, respectively, while planting 3 out of the 8 mcoms.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 11:44:24 GMT -5
i tried to applie a real world tactic yesterday, with more success than i would have expected in an rather arcady game like bf3. That is just awesome. Think about how much more playable the CQC maps like Bazaar and Metro are now. Well, unless someone sets up a bipod. Then, suppressing them doesn't really do anything.
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eLantern
True Bro
"Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned! Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee!" - Bender
Posts: 10,761
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Post by eLantern on Apr 5, 2012 12:01:18 GMT -5
Suppression is way too good now and the Foregrip was a bit over-nerfed... IMO. Otherwise, I like the changes. I rather like the new suppression mechanic. Before the patch, I would try to suppress Assaults and Recons, and they would just fire back a perfectly-aimed burst/shot at my head. Now, when I know they are there, I know I can suppress them. Whenever I get suppressed, I dive to the nearest cover. If I can't do that, I throw some rounds at them and make a run for it. It really is rewarding when you can outplay someone through more than just aiming. THAT BEING SAID... I make sure someone on our squad is running Squad Cover/ Suppression Resistance/ whatever it's called. It is invaluable, and for the most part, puts suppression back where it was before the patch. Really, it's a new game, and I like the tactical direction it went in. I still think that suppression could be balanced around certain guns: SKS suppresses too much, now that it's an actual viable gun to use in combat. Low RPM variants of the 5.56mm round guns cannot suppress like their higher RPM brothers. Worry not, you non-fans of the new mechanics: suppression will be toned down, according to the ex-lead developer of the multiplayer. RE: Foregrip. I don't think it was overnerfed. In fact, I think that it compliments the HBar EXTREMELY well. Try it with most guns which often have extra horizontal kick, and you'll notice that it's more accurate and more controllable than a naked gun. Sure, it's not like the old Suppressor-Foregrip combo, but now everyone is on the same playing field, so you must adapt to survive. I'm glad to hear that they are tweaking the Suppression some. I wasn't trying to indicate that it should be brought back to the pre-patch level, but I felt it should be somewhere in-between. The fact that I can be in a CQC situation and have most of my shots missing my target because of the increased Suppression seems pretty crazy to me. As far as the Foregrip, I just thought that the main role of the Foregrip has always been to increasing weapon accuracy for the players who preferred staying mobile verses those who preferred to hunker down and make use of the Bi-Pod attachment. Now, it seems like in almost every case, the Foregrip has such little positive impact outside of a very specific role that the Bi-Pod attachment's value has grown so much more in turn... which in my opinion only encourages more players to become stationary, so that they can post-up and make use of the Bi-Pod's tremendous effects. Personally, I like seeing more movement out of teammates and enemies, giving the game more faster pace action. Anyways, these are just my feelings on the Foregrip... I'm again not necessarily suggesting that it go back to how it was, but some happy medium would be nice.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 12:30:09 GMT -5
As far as the Foregrip, I just thought that the main role of the Foregrip has always been to increasing weapon accuracy for the players who preferred staying mobile verses those who preferred to hunker down and make use of the Bi-Pod attachment. Now, it seems like in almost every case, the Foregrip has such little positive impact outside of a very specific role that the Bi-Pod attachment's value has grown so much more in turn... which in my opinion only encourages more players to become stationary, so that they can post-up and make use of the Bi-Pod's tremendous effects. Personally, I like seeing more movement out of teammates and enemies, giving the game more faster pace action. Anyways, these are just my feelings on the Foregrip... I'm again not necessarily suggesting that it go back to how it was, but some happy medium would be nice. Of course! I will never use the bipod regularly, because I am such a mobile player (ask Didjeridu, I always manage to be in danger when he spawns on me ). But I have found that the 3 forward attachments (grip, bipod, naked/rail) are excellently balanced against each other. The direction was to balance all attachments with having no attachment. So I agree, but I ask you to check the foregrip again. Don't full-auto the gun, and it can be extremely deadly in combination with HBar. That is my experience, at least.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 12:32:16 GMT -5
A question I have is what recoil does the FS decrease? I remember seeing somewhere before that it's supposed to be vertical only, but everything now just says "recoil." Arg, just realized that "RecoilMagnitudeMod" is vertical recoil, and "RecoilAngleMod" is horizontal recoil. So, indeed, the Hbar and FS only affect vertical recoil, not horizontal. The foregrip only affects horizontal recoil (in most cases) and not vertical recoil (in most cases).
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 5, 2012 15:31:44 GMT -5
Alrighty then. So that makes the FS a lot less attractive. It's still a good attachment, but in the face of the HBAR it has no place. Can anyone confirm if the QBU and L96 lost the FS? I've said it before and I'll say it again; the only situation where the FS makes any sense at all is on a sniper rifle. It wouldn't do much on the L96 aside from people spotting your fire I guess, but it's not like the laser and flashlight are that helpful (lolsilencer). Even just lowering recoil a tiny bit can mean a lot for the semi-auto snipers though. As for spawning, I'd say it's the other way around. If you spawn on me you have a 50% chance of instant death.
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mrite
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Post by mrite on Apr 5, 2012 16:11:59 GMT -5
i can confirm that neither the L96, nor the QBU have a flash suppressor, leaving the only viable attachment being the laser for the L96
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 5, 2012 17:11:23 GMT -5
As far as the Foregrip, I just thought that the main role of the Foregrip has always been to increasing weapon accuracy for the players who preferred staying mobile verses those who preferred to hunker down and make use of the Bi-Pod attachment. Now, it seems like in almost every case, the Foregrip has such little positive impact outside of a very specific role that the Bi-Pod attachment's value has grown so much more in turn... which in my opinion only encourages more players to become stationary, so that they can post-up and make use of the Bi-Pod's tremendous effects. Personally, I like seeing more movement out of teammates and enemies, giving the game more faster pace action. Anyways, these are just my feelings on the Foregrip... I'm again not necessarily suggesting that it go back to how it was, but some happy medium would be nice. Of course! I will never use the bipod regularly, because I am such a mobile player (ask Didjeridu, I always manage to be in danger when he spawns on me ). But I have found that the 3 forward attachments (grip, bipod, naked/rail) are excellently balanced against each other. The direction was to balance all attachments with having no attachment. So I agree, but I ask you to check the foregrip again. Don't full-auto the gun, and it can be extremely deadly in combination with HBar. That is my experience, at least. You'd be suprised how much even bipodded weapons are affected by suppression. I think the spread increase isn't so bad, but recoil is thrown all over the place (though its still better than not being in bipod mode of course) so about that HB again (goddamnit i want to type hbar everytime)(wait you did too ), you're sure there's no extra spread increase? Cause that would mean the hb is pretty much the best attachment; slightly worse hipfire and extra vertical recoil dont mean nothing
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 5, 2012 20:11:22 GMT -5
I am giving you one gun that needs the FS: FAMAS. As it stands, it's a steaming turd. FS makes it only vaguely usable.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 6, 2012 4:16:17 GMT -5
The base gun was always kind of a streaming turd, it was the suppressor/foregrip that made the thing viable and those suck now
I dont think i would put an FS on that thing...I'd use it as a hipfiring monster so laser sight for me
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Post by SheWolf on Apr 6, 2012 6:02:37 GMT -5
i still use it as a stealth/cq gun, like for sneaking behind groups on metro. still with silencer. works, but not as OP as it used to be.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 6, 2012 7:30:00 GMT -5
The base gun was always kind of a streaming turd, it was the suppressor/foregrip that made the thing viable and those suck now I dont think i would put an FS on that thing...I'd use it as a hipfiring monster so laser sight for me I was trying to (as bad as this sounds) use it in non-Operation Metro applications. I can manage to get kills out to 40-50M without single fire when I use grip+FS, beyond that and they manage to scoot away to safety. At least I have that range. With the FS, I can still hipfire close without worry (only have to put 4 bullets on target, how hard can it be?) and ADS and get kills close-mid to mid range. Here is a fun fact: the FAMAS can now side strafe while aiming down sight as fast as the KH2002 and F2000 bulpup weapons. Like it really matters
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 6, 2012 9:18:17 GMT -5
Another fun fact: Snipers get a 2.4x multiplier to the head now, making OSOK's possible with the SKS and making the other semi-autos have a much greater range for OSOK. MUCH GREATER...
It is now 55m. Does that sound overpowered to anyone else?
EDIT: Calculations:
100 / 2.4 = 41.6666667 damage required for sniper One Shot One Kill Normal Semi-Autos: 50 til 15m, then drop off til 75m where they do 37.5. Range of 41 and 2/3: 15m + {(50-41.67)/(50-37.5)}*(75-15) = 55m
Why use bolt actions if you are going to be within that range? The only exception is the super-close chest shots, which go out to 20m now. Well, all of them except the M98B, which only goes out to ~17.5m, for some reason.
They did some WEIRD stuff with the bolt-actions.
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Post by saddaminsane on Apr 6, 2012 9:21:52 GMT -5
nope- hitting a moving target in the head with a semi auto is hard- if they were stationary and hot shot in the head, they probably deserved it
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 6, 2012 9:39:45 GMT -5
nope- hitting a moving target in the head with a semi auto is hard- if they were stationary and hot shot in the head, they probably deserved it Right, but how does that change with a bolt action? As a kit, there is some weird balance that is going on, that's all I am saying. Also, with everyone so enamored with the SKS, they should be taking a harder look at the Semi-Autos. My point is that as a class, the Assault Rifles, SMGs (with a few exceptions), and LMGs became more difficult to use due to attachment nerfs, whereas the Semi-auto snipers, about which no one was complaining, got a tremendous buff. Weird. At longest range, one semi-auto (non SKS) bullet to head (just as easy to achieve as a bolt action, mind you, because of no sighted deviation) does 90 damage. Maybe I am making a big deal out of nothing, but I think that that is high (used to be ~67 damage). To make a point, the M39 has a bullet velocity of 570 m/s. The L96 has a bullet velocity of 540 m/s, the M40A5 is 490 m/s, and the SV98 is 520 m/s. Clearly it's easier to hit a head with a faster bullet. Also, it's easier to hit a head if you have another try in .3 seconds, as opposed to over 1 second. Double ninja edit: The SV98 now has long range damage of 50, instead of 55. Not a necessary change, and just reinforces that you should never use the weapon, though I have heard rumblings on the youtube community that it has better hit detection, whatever that means.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 6, 2012 12:12:19 GMT -5
I think the semis always had that headshot multiplier..hell, the as val had it pre-patch so I figured as much. 55 metres is pretty long though. Pre patch, a semi auto headshot did 80 damage with, what was it, 34 ranged damage? so I think a 2,4 multiplier sounds about right. But yeah, the semis got buffed but not imo not that huge, pretty much only thing is a garantued 3 shot kill even if shots land the feet and they don't jam as much anymore one thing that is strange is that the semi autos (as well as the sks) seem to get the 1,25 chest modifier. This would mean the SKS is a 2 shot chest kill up close and thats hella good Also counts for the SV98; it might do 50 base damage but a well placed shot is 60 damage so that got buffed. only thing is that you now take 3 leg shots to kill something (which is ironic since the faster semi actions got buffed in that regard ) Pretty stupid. Bolt Actions got buffed at close range but actually got nerfed in the range they're supposed to be specialized in, long range
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 6, 2012 12:27:02 GMT -5
Yeah, thanks for pointing out the wonky math. I did not know that before, the Semi-Autos had a 2.4x multiplier.
So the VAL does have the 2.4x? Also news to me. Does it still?
DICE logic failure, I just don't see why any weapons besides the SKS in recon needed buffing (now it's almost too good), and beyond that, why you should be rewarded for being a terrible shot with the 10rd. semis. Also, I think they broke hardcore with the new M98B, but I never play it, so I don't know. (You don't even need to hit in chest out to 106.25m -- legs, 131.25m -- arms).
Hmmm.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 6, 2012 12:33:17 GMT -5
Nah, the VAL used to have the 2.4x multiplier. The patch removed it Yeah, the SKS is a real monster now it seems. I was fine with buffed the leg shots for the semi autos though, since every AR and LMG got that same buff for long range too. I mean, the semis were never really percision weapons anyway; that was the bolt actions job the m98b must be so rampant now in Touch Football, so glad i dont play that. 1 hit kill to 100 metres, and a chest kill till the end of times weirdest thing they did in this patch is giving the M93R semi auto pistol bullets. Yes, that means it now deals 25-10 damage and outclasses both the semi auto pistols as well as the g18 In the meantime, the specialized close range weapons (read shotguns) get nerfed at close range. DICE logic
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 6, 2012 14:09:51 GMT -5
OHKs for SKS headshots? Hell to the yes.
Doesn't the FAMAS have burst fire? Given that and its high RoF and velocity, it could be a decent burst weapon. Its new recoil numbers are still a bit on the large side, but they're better than before. Plus it has predictable right recoil, and even got a decrease buff. I wouldn't use it at long range though. Although I'm just talking nonsense. Look at that first shot recoil...brutal. Yeah, FAMAS is a pile of crap. If I really wanted a hipfire weapon, I'd go F2000, AEK, or shotgun.
Edit: Can't believe I missed that M93r bit. That's...amazing. Could be a bug though. However given DICE and their mega-patch philosophy, it we'll be able to enjoy it for quite some time. I still remember my time with the AKS fondly.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 6, 2012 17:47:41 GMT -5
Well I guess I know what pistol I'll be using from now on
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Post by didjeridu on Apr 7, 2012 19:35:56 GMT -5
I just noticed on Symthic's beta charts that shotguns have separate RoFs for frag rounds. That's pretty sad, considering frags are borderline terrible now. Still, never liked them to begin with, so no tears shed here. Also, the 870 gets slightly faster RoF with buckshot. Now that I can shed tears for, since flechette is left out in the cold. It's bad enough they got nerfed for no reason, but shunning the only close range ammo I like? Just plain mean. I'd go slugs, but with this suppression, using weapons that require high accuracy is just futile.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 8, 2012 17:01:22 GMT -5
I just noticed on Symthic's beta charts that shotguns have separate RoFs for frag rounds. That's pretty sad, considering frags are borderline terrible now. Still, never liked them to begin with, so no tears shed here. Also, the 870 gets slightly faster RoF with buckshot. Now that I can shed tears for, since flechette is left out in the cold. It's bad enough they got nerfed for no reason, but shunning the only close range ammo I like? Just plain mean. I'd go slugs, but with this suppression, using weapons that require high accuracy is just futile. RE: Frags. All of the shotguns besides the auto shotties apparently had a frag rounds ROF modifier that made them slower than the other rounds. The USAS and MK3A1 didn't have the modifier, which made Frag rounds too good. They definitely did overnerf them, IMO, but that was their design choice. RE: Buckshot. It is weird, but any buff to the 870 would be good enough for me. It's funny, but I liked Flechette before for the 870, but now, I just don't want to use it, considering that the Buckshot is so much better now. RE: Slugs. I was using my M26 MASS with slugs, and I noticed something that the users on Symthic's site also noticed; there are weird multipliers or random damage going on. A few times,I had to hit the enemy 3 times at close range (no legs, no head shot), which should NEVER happen. Currently, buckshot is king of shotgun rounds.
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Post by saucejockey on Apr 8, 2012 22:04:21 GMT -5
The HK53 is now my favorite carbine. Previously, that title went to the M4 for obvious reasons. I don't think I can ever go back to the M4, ever. The 53 simply rapes so much face. I haven't tried the new G36C yet, is it as controllable as the 53?
Also, the new 93R seems a little TOO good. 25 damage, decently controllable recoil, low hipfire spread, fast reload, and it's unaffected by suppression. I like it.
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mrite
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Post by mrite on Apr 9, 2012 4:49:08 GMT -5
well now, the semi autos two hit until 63 meters, which is a fair distance by any means, and due to their natural fit with the bipod, they may have taken over the lmg's role as the best way to defend a point. Also, as the Dao-12 got both a spread and rate of fire buff at the cost of one more pellet when using flechette, it is now the definition of close quarters destruction.
another change is that the M39 now fires at 300 RPM, only 30 RPM slower than the SKS, and get a two shot to a much further distance, as well as a one shot headshot. The SV98 is now the best weapon for the aggressive recon, as it get two more meters of OHKO over even the M98, and the long range damage is not a change at all, as 50 = 55 in practical terms.
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Post by rudybojangles on Apr 9, 2012 12:05:57 GMT -5
. The SV98 is now the best weapon for the aggressive recon, as it get two more meters of OHKO over even the M98, and the long range damage is not a change at all, as 50 = 55 in practical terms. Sort of. If you don't hit legs, yes, but any recon is going to hit legs some times. You don't want to hit legs 3 times with a bolt action, it doubles your TTK. I agree that it's nice to have longer OHKO range, but you can also get that in the other 2 bolt actions, no? L96 and M40?
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Apr 9, 2012 12:31:17 GMT -5
i'm pretty sure the intended change was to have all recon rifles do 50 long range damage (at least thats what symthic said), something probably went wrong there
I guess the better hipfire numbers for the SV98 was to give it an edge for its slower bolt action, not for the lower damage
The m40a5 still needs something over the l96
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mrite
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Post by mrite on Apr 9, 2012 14:04:21 GMT -5
well, the SV98 OHKs to 20 meters, and the others only do that until 18 meters, so it has a small advantage for an accurate person, but it is outclassed against larger groups, also the M40 has a .01 second slower rechamber time over the L96, perfectly balanced, the real unbalance is any semi auto sniper against the M39, as it has a 40 RPM advantage
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