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Post by ssog on Dec 8, 2009 20:48:20 GMT -5
ssog im not sure what would fix SMG's without making them overpowered in core. I agree... but that's because I think the SMGs are already relatively balanced, so beefing them up would unbalance them. At most, give them a 5% movement speed bonus. Either way, I'd love to see my proposed change to Akimbo. Even if it made it impossible to melee, it'd make Akimbo usable and really fun.
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Post by chyros on Dec 8, 2009 20:52:27 GMT -5
This is true, but I can't really think of what would make them better except to change 40 damage into 50 and 30 into 40, which shouldn't be necessary is the assault rifles didn't have both high damage and tight spread IMO. You could also tighten the crosshairs further but again, this doesn't give you that critical of an advantage against other tight crosshairs. There are plenty of easy ways to beef up SMGs relative to the other weapon classes. Give them a 5-10% movement speed bonus, for instance. Tighten their hip spread. My favorite would be beefing up the SMG-specific attachments (Rapid Fire and Akimbo). It'd be cool if there was some way to "quasi-ADS" with Akimbo SMGs that would extend both of your arms forward (so you're holding your SMGs at arms length in front of your face, like this, instead of at your hip, like this). It could result in a much, much tighter spread, with the drawback of obscuring a bit more of your view. Maybe make it so you could toggle between the two stances with weapon switch (like a 3rd weapon), or even replace melee with a toggle (because, really, how the heck are you supposed to be knifing with guns in both hands?). Movement speed bonus is of course always nice. In fact, I think the game doesn't utilise the full potential of weapon movement speed differences. However, in a combat situation, speed is one of the less noticeable traits of a weapon. The two major factors that determine combat outcomes are damage and recoil. Like I said, hip spread is of course nice but tightening it further won't make AR's not kill you half of the time in close combat situations because it's mostly the AR's hipspread that unbalances SMG's, not the SMG's own hipspread. The notion of buffing SMG attachments is interesting, but the problem with this is that it kind of forces you into a choice. For example, with a G18, you have no choice but to go akimo, because the weapon sucks without it. Making attachments no-brainers is a big disappointment, I think, personally. That, said, rapid fire could use a small buff of some kind. Akimbo on SMGs is IMO almost perfect as it is. If I could mod it I'd give a Vector tighter hip spread to make its accuracy carry through on akimbo, for example, but generally speaking it's well-balanced for SMGs.
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Post by ssog on Dec 9, 2009 3:25:09 GMT -5
Movement speed bonus is of course always nice. In fact, I think the game doesn't utilise the full potential of weapon movement speed differences. However, in a combat situation, speed is one of the less noticeable traits of a weapon. The two major factors that determine combat outcomes are damage and recoil. Like I said, hip spread is of course nice but tightening it further won't make AR's not kill you half of the time in close combat situations because it's mostly the AR's hipspread that unbalances SMG's, not the SMG's own hipspread. The notion of buffing SMG attachments is interesting, but the problem with this is that it kind of forces you into a choice. For example, with a G18, you have no choice but to go akimo, because the weapon sucks without it. Making attachments no-brainers is a big disappointment, I think, personally. That, said, rapid fire could use a small buff of some kind. Akimbo on SMGs is IMO almost perfect as it is. If I could mod it I'd give a Vector tighter hip spread to make its accuracy carry through on akimbo, for example, but generally speaking it's well-balanced for SMGs. I'd say that the one major trait in determining the outcome of combat isn't damage or recoil... it's who sees whom first. Movement speed would help SMGs out in that area. It'd also make SMGs the weapon of choice in objective gametypes. As for Akimbo... I honestly don't know how you could possibly call it balanced on SMGs. It's useless. Brutally terribly awfully horrible. I'd rather run an SMG with an ACOG or a thermal than one with Akimbo. At least I can hit stuff once with an ACOG before the recoil takes it a mile off target- with Akimbo I can't even get that. It basically just turns a perfectly good SMG into a poor man's shotgun... which is bad, since shotguns were already a poor man's primary.
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Dec 9, 2009 3:39:29 GMT -5
ssog im not sure what would fix SMG's without making them overpowered in core. I agree... but that's because I think the SMGs are already relatively balanced, so beefing them up would unbalance them. At most, give them a 5% movement speed bonus. Either way, I'd love to see my proposed change to Akimbo. Even if it made it impossible to melee, it'd make Akimbo usable and really fun. i love the extra 5% movement speed bonus! cause u couldn't add range, or max damage without making them hellaciously imba inside their max range.
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Den
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Post by Den on Dec 9, 2009 4:02:02 GMT -5
Akimbo having spread worse than sniper rifles is just ridiculous. The loss of ADS is a big enough negative. Heck, the 1887 should get the same spread treatment. The Glock alone having good hip spread compared to the others is even more ridiculous.
If Akimbo SMGs and Pistols were given LMG or Assault spread, that would be fine.
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Post by chyros on Dec 9, 2009 7:29:14 GMT -5
Movement speed bonus is of course always nice. In fact, I think the game doesn't utilise the full potential of weapon movement speed differences. However, in a combat situation, speed is one of the less noticeable traits of a weapon. The two major factors that determine combat outcomes are damage and recoil. Like I said, hip spread is of course nice but tightening it further won't make AR's not kill you half of the time in close combat situations because it's mostly the AR's hipspread that unbalances SMG's, not the SMG's own hipspread. The notion of buffing SMG attachments is interesting, but the problem with this is that it kind of forces you into a choice. For example, with a G18, you have no choice but to go akimo, because the weapon sucks without it. Making attachments no-brainers is a big disappointment, I think, personally. That, said, rapid fire could use a small buff of some kind. Akimbo on SMGs is IMO almost perfect as it is. If I could mod it I'd give a Vector tighter hip spread to make its accuracy carry through on akimbo, for example, but generally speaking it's well-balanced for SMGs. I'd say that the one major trait in determining the outcome of combat isn't damage or recoil... it's who sees whom first. Movement speed would help SMGs out in that area. It'd also make SMGs the weapon of choice in objective gametypes. It's absolutely true that seeing the other first is an extremely major part of combat, now more than ever with the hit-viewkick. I left this out because I felt this was not a factor you could implement into a weapon. Now that you say it like this, I guess a move speed buff would help a little in this category, but to be fair even LMG and AR users look around all the time, and the player has no eye weaknesses so they can spot everyone at infinite range. So I'd guess it'd help a tiny bit but not that much to help spot them. Interesting point though. Yeah, definitely true. A hip spread of 15 is way too much.
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Post by ssog on Dec 9, 2009 16:35:28 GMT -5
Akimbo having spread worse than sniper rifles is just ridiculous. The loss of ADS is a big enough negative. Heck, the 1887 should get the same spread treatment. The Glock alone having good hip spread compared to the others is even more ridiculous. If Akimbo SMGs and Pistols were given LMG or Assault spread, that would be fine. I'm telling you, a toggleable quasi-ADS would totally fix Akimbo. Either have the Semi-ADS replace melee, or have it slow down your movement so that it has some minor negative (beyond the simple screen obscuring effect), then give it tighter hip-fire than the SMG had before Akimbo. That would make Akimbo SMGs actually worthwhile (although, being honest, still probably worse than non-Akimbo).
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Post by spifnar on Dec 10, 2009 14:07:56 GMT -5
Akimbo is such a ridiculous buff to weapon damage, that it needs hard disadvantages. In fact, it needs more disadvantages than it currently has:
No ADS Lower accuracy on SMGs and some MPs Possibly more recoil?
That's it? For 200% damage? On a weapon slot? Honestly, akimbo with anything but handguns should give you a 5-10% movement penalty, and double your reload time. Alongside the current disadvantages
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Post by ssog on Dec 10, 2009 18:28:58 GMT -5
Akimbo is such a ridiculous buff to weapon damage, that it needs hard disadvantages. In fact, it needs more disadvantages than it currently has: No ADS Lower accuracy on SMGs and some MPs Possibly more recoil? That's it? For 200% damage? On a weapon slot? Honestly, akimbo with anything but handguns should give you a 5-10% movement penalty, and double your reload time. Alongside the current disadvantages Akimbo doesn't give 200% damage. It gives 200% as many bullets in the air. If IW made a perk that gave +infinitybillion damage per shot, but also made it so that it had a range of 10 inches, would you use that perk? You must obviously think that the Ranger is the best gun in the entire game, because it deals far and away the most damage. All the bullets in the world won't help you if none of them hit... an with Akimbo's current penalties, none of your bullets hit. Sure, you're a god within knife range... but then again, a knife has a faster TTK within knife range, anyway. Akimbo shotties = godly. Akimbo pistols = usable. Akimbo SMGs = worthless steaming pile of doggy poo.
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Post by chyros on Dec 10, 2009 21:50:29 GMT -5
Akimbo is such a ridiculous buff to weapon damage, that it needs hard disadvantages. In fact, it needs more disadvantages than it currently has: No ADS Lower accuracy on SMGs and some MPs Possibly more recoil? That's it? For 200% damage? On a weapon slot? Honestly, akimbo with anything but handguns should give you a 5-10% movement penalty, and double your reload time. Alongside the current disadvantages Akimbo doesn't give 200% damage. It gives 200% as many bullets in the air. This wouldn't be a difference if you didn't get twice as big an ammo capacity and a lot more ammo. But you do, and you do.
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Post by ssog on Dec 11, 2009 1:16:57 GMT -5
Akimbo doesn't give 200% damage. It gives 200% as many bullets in the air. This wouldn't be a difference if you didn't get twice as big an ammo capacity and a lot more ammo. But you do, and you do. It's still not the same thing. In order for 200% bullets to equal 200% damage, you'll need a comparable accuracy... and no one in their right mind would pretend that they're anywhere near as accurate with Akimbo as they are without. You need to be at least half as accurate just to break even, and any range short enough for you to retain that much accuracy is short enough for you to put on Commando and just knife the guy.
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Post by chyros on Dec 11, 2009 4:37:28 GMT -5
This wouldn't be a difference if you didn't get twice as big an ammo capacity and a lot more ammo. But you do, and you do. It's still not the same thing. In order for 200% bullets to equal 200% damage, you'll need a comparable accuracy... and no one in their right mind would pretend that they're anywhere near as accurate with Akimbo as they are without. You need to be at least half as accurate just to break even, and any range short enough for you to retain that much accuracy is short enough for you to put on Commando and just knife the guy. That's true ofc... But don't forget that when you DO land shots, your TTK is reduced by more than half. For P90's up close for example (without SP), TTK is reduced to one third of its original value. If it hits.
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Post by spifnar on Dec 11, 2009 15:42:44 GMT -5
You need to be at least half as accurate just to break even, and any range short enough for you to retain that much accuracy is short enough for you to put on Commando and just knife the guy. I agree with you for most weapons, but there are weapons that have no loss in accuracy using akimbo (afaik: shotguns, G18 and handguns), outside of loss of ADS. Whether the akimbo hip-spread increase of other MPs is enough is kinda moot. The G18 outclasses them all in akimbo If the G18 is given the same accuracy loss as other MPs, and akimbo shotguns had some other disadvantage, then the balance on short range weapons would be a lot better.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 12, 2009 3:17:58 GMT -5
ssog im not sure what would fix SMG's without making them overpowered in core. Implying you would balance them for hardcore? (hehe I usually just type HC but I've been missing out on all the filter goodness.) Hardcore is unbalanced by definition. Probably the only way to make it balanced would be to change all the stats specifically for it, which then would make hardcore and core pretty much two separate games. I'm not totally sold on the SMG's being quite so unbalanced yet. I've been using the UMP45 and so far I'd say it's okay except I've never been very good at handling recoil and with rapidfire it drifts up fast. It's manageable, though. In fact in testing I was actually able to slowly drift my aim down to compensate quite a bit because it's so vertical, but I'm no good at it in practice. The worst part of the vertical recoil though is actually when you take a hit and it pops your aim 3 feet over the guy's head. It's next to impossible to get it back on target before you're dead. So mebbe SMG's should kick less from damage? But then that's only the UMP. I'm not a fan of the quasi ADS for akimbo, idea, though. You really cannot look down the sights of two guns at the same time. I might not be opposed to a tighter spread, but I've not played with that as yet. I do think SMG's accuracy should suffer less from moving than other weapons, but I think they already do. I think the SMG's problem is more that the maps are just designed more for medium to long range with a few short range sections than the weapons themselves having a problem. As for making AR's switch for CQC like snipers do that sounds odd to me. If I walk into a room with an automatic rifle switching to a pistol just because I'm indoors doesn't sound particularly logical or intuitive. You would still think that an AR would be better firepower in a close fight than a pistol. That would just ensure that new players got trashed at CQC because they didn't know that their assault rifles were nerfed for CQC. I'm also not quite sure how you would accomplish it without nerfing their long and medium range combat abilities. You could give them wider hip fire spread, I'm down for that, actually. AR's and LMG's should really be fired down the sights. But it still shouldn't be too much or again it just wouldn't make sense. SMG's already have 5% faster movement than AR's and more than that on LMG's, but 5% just isn't very much. Full movement speed during ADS is more important than the 5%. I'm not sure increasing SMG's accuracy is a good way to improve them though. If you do that you run the risk of making them too effective at medium range to really feel like an SMG instead of just a low powered AR. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, but it could be. I dunno... I'm still undecided on SMG's. Snipers I think are fine as is, though. As I said, snipers rifles aren't really designed for a strait up fight against AR's and LMG's. If they were then you wouldn't need AR's and LMG's in the game. I think sniping is working as intended and I got no beef with owning snipers if we spot each other at the same time. If they wanted snipers to be any more powerful than they are then they could have just made better tactical loitering spots that are difficult to flank. As for the FAMAS and M16, I still like them. They are highly dependent on SP and getting a good hit with your burst, which puts an upper limit on their one burst kill sniping range, but the range is pretty decent, and missing only 1 of the 3 bullets isn't a huge detriment since you only need the first bullet of the next burst to kill after that so it's still pretty darn easy to kill and quickly. That's not to say other weapons can't do quite well too. Personally I do far better with my FAMAS at long range than I do with my SCAR. I don't know what you mean by keeping it on target on full automatic at long range. When I use it at long range the recoil easily jumps enough after 3 shots or so to miss, making it easier for me to kill by burst firing it manually about 3 to 5 rounds per burst. Unless your long range is shorter than my long range, or then maybe your PC and it's easier to manually compensate for recoil with a mouse? I dunno. To me trying to recenter the sights before the next shot goes off sounds ridiculously difficult. But then I've never been good at dealing with recoil. Which is one reason why I like my FAMAS. The burst grouping is fairly tight and I can recover from recoil between bursts to put each one where I want it. I probably would prefer my SCAR-H for most maps though due to more medium range than long range fighting, or rather more medium range threats than long range ones. With my FAMAS though I take out long range threats quicker and if I have first sighting I more consistently get the kill even at medium and close range than with my SCAR-H. I just find it more useful for medium range defense. At close I probably prefer the FAMAS again, though for the one burst kill. ;p Hard to miss at close range. It's just point and click even if you don't ADS, so I often hit both triggers at the same time.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 12, 2009 3:21:49 GMT -5
I'm finally starting to use the TAR some, but I'm fighting the recoil on that SoB every time I do. I think I don't mind the slightly slower TTK on my SCAR-H compared to the TAR's kick. My actual TTK tends to be faster when I can actually hit things. ;p But I gotta learn to deal with recoil someday, right? hehe
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Post by mannon on Dec 12, 2009 3:42:58 GMT -5
Hip spread akimbo SMG's does seem wide to me. I hated using them even in SP. And it does seem odd that you can knife just as easily, though I'd be loath to change it for fear of introducing more balancing difficulties.
hmm... Still not a particular fan of quasi ADS, though. Think just fix the hip spread, but mebbe some other tweaks... I dunno. I've never been a huge fan of spraying anyway, though so I still wouldn't use them. ;p
Oddly I actually LOVED akimbo in Halo2, though and used it almost exclusively every chance I got. But there was not ADS nor really hip spread. ;p
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Den
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Post by Den on Dec 12, 2009 6:19:38 GMT -5
Crouching.
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Post by ssog on Dec 12, 2009 21:46:31 GMT -5
Crouching. Didn't even think of that, but that would be perfect. Have standard Akimbo spread while you're standing, but when you crouch have the guns pull up a bit, partially obscure your view, and have the hip spread tighten waaaaaaay up (I'd even say tighter than a standard SMG hip spread, because it's not like it's not going to go to hell once you go full auto, anyway). It's already got the penalties built in- you're stuck with much slower movement speed to offset the gains in hip-fire accuracy.
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