probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:06:06 GMT -5
Title says it all. This is a splinter thread to prevent a threadjack on a discussion about the MG36. I encourage everyone to continue discussing GunKick here .
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Post by mw2baller on Jul 3, 2012 23:09:42 GMT -5
It's really easy to understand. For example look at the barrett.
When you fire it, your crosshairs jerk up and to the right strongly. Despite all this, the crosshairs remain in the center of your screen, your view changes but the impact point of bullets fired stays in the center.
Gunkick moves the bullet impact point in relation to the screen. This causes bullets to land somewhere that's not in the center of the screen.
When combined with viewkick, the recoil adds up. So after you fire a shot, not only does your view shift up a bit, but the impact point shifts up as well within that view.
So to sum it all up, normal recoil (viewkick) moves your view (duh). Regardless of where it's moved, your bullets will still hit the center of the screen. Gunkick moves the actual impact point. For example on a 50x30 inch screen, the bullets will land a couple inches above the center of the screen (or wherever the gunkick moves the impact point).
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:15:04 GMT -5
It's really easy to understand. For example look at the barrett. When you fire it, your crosshairs jerk up and to the right strongly. Despite all this, the crosshairs remain in the center of your screen, your view changes but the impact point of bullets fired stays in the center. Gunkick moves the bullet impact point in relation to the screen. This causes bullets to land somewhere that's not in the center of the screen. When combined with viewkick, the recoil adds up. So after you fire a shot, not only does your view shift up a bit, but the impact point shifts up as well within that view. So to sum it all up, normal recoil (viewkick) moves your view (duh). Regardless of where it's moved, your bullets will still hit the center of the screen. Gunkick moves the actual impact point. For example on a 50x30 inch screen, the bullets will land a couple inches above the center of the screen (or wherever the gunkick moves the impact point). I think we're all pretty much past that part. I'm trying to get my head around the gritty details of how those ten variables govern GunKick. For that I think we'll need some divine intervention (Den) or more information from Marvel4.
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 3, 2012 23:38:56 GMT -5
If cod4 has gunkick already in it then what happens if we totally remove viewkick then start changing the values to see what affects what. And once we roughly know what each stat does is it possible to try to guess the gun kick values of MW3 weapons by modding the cod 4 guns?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:41:18 GMT -5
Just a thought while I was firing an L86 at a wall in a private match: maybe some of those variables are obsolete. If there really is a "reduced kick percentage" for the first few bullets I couldn't visibly discern when or how that actually takes effect. It looked to me like the L86 can Kick just as hard on the first shot as any other.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:44:40 GMT -5
If cod4 has gunkick already in it then what happens if we totally remove viewkick then start changing the values to see what affects what. And once we roughly know what each stat does is it possible to try to guess the gun kick values of MW3 weapons by modding the cod 4 guns? That's certainly possible. As long you have all four ViewKick Min/Max values such that they all fall below CenterSpeed*FireTime/5 in absolute value you'll have a gun that effectively has no ViewKick.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:45:23 GMT -5
Just a thought while I was firing an L86 at a wall in a private match: maybe some of those variables are obsolete. If there really is a "reduced kick percentage" for the first few bullets I couldn't visibly discern when or how that actually takes effect. It looked to me like the L86 can Kick just as hard on the first shot as any other. That's just one gun, though. For all we know it's reduced kick percentage could be zero. I know, I know. I'm grasping at straws here .
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 3, 2012 23:52:11 GMT -5
Well just bouncing ideas here, but can you mod cod4 weapon images to match MW3 guns? As a test see if we can duplicate the l86's gunkick with the recoils xboxahoy gave out. He gave the 4 directional values, but left out center speed and the other stats cod4 has weren't really talked about at all.
Actually we don't need to change the gun model to get a match. Xboxahoy gave the mp5 gunkick in MW3 as well right? And isn't the mp5 in cod4 the same image?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 0:02:38 GMT -5
The other reason I think there may be obsolete variables is because of the apparent redundancies: - adsGunKickSpeedMax appears to contradict the four Max/Min Pitch/Yaw variables. If a gun receives a kick to the right of 100 but adsGunKickSpeedMax is set to 80 will the velocity of that kick be overwritten and set to 80? If so, why bother setting the maximum to 100 in the first place? That makes adsGunKickSpeedMax appear redundant if you set the four Min/Max Pitch/Yaw variables correctly in the first place.
- The descriptions of adsGunKickAccel and adsGunKickSpeedDecay read as being almost identical to me. And if adsGunKickAccel governs the rate of recentering why do we need a separate statistic (adsGunKickStaticDecay) to tell us again how fast the gun recovers from a deflection?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jul 4, 2012 0:11:20 GMT -5
I think one is describing how quickly it can move, and the other the recoil maximums. Think:
RF L86 - Stops recoiling upwards Barrett/DE Spray - Stop recoiling altogether*
*See here:
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Jul 4, 2012 0:11:26 GMT -5
@ Probaddie Makes sense. They probably aren't used if we're right on what they mean.
On the RF L86 when it stops recoiling isn't that because it reached the max value of the 4 recoil numbers and the center speed isn't high enough to lower it before the next bullet comes out? Or is that not how it works and therefore must be because of the other stats.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 0:51:18 GMT -5
I think one is describing how quickly it can move, and the other the recoil maximums. Think: RF L86 - Stops recoiling upwards Barrett/DE Spray - Stop recoiling altogether* *See here: I think that's a totally separate mechanic. Den mentioned a plus/minus 10 degree maximum deflection in both the X and Y axes for all weapons. Once the gun reaches that limit, your view corkscrews instead of climbing out further. It's in this thread (page 4): denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2461. There's probably a hard limit on GunKick just like the limit on ViewKick I mentioned above. I don't think variables that mention "speed" would have anything to do with it though, but I could be wrong.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 4, 2012 8:22:18 GMT -5
Xboxahoy gave the mp5 gunkick in MW3 as well right? Yes, but it still has the same gunkick as in CoD4: 5,15,-5,10 This is too low to have any effect on accuracy.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 9:20:36 GMT -5
Quick question: if I were to obtain a copy of CoD4, how would I go about modifying the weapon files to test the different GunKick parameters?
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 4, 2012 9:42:03 GMT -5
Quick question: if I were to obtain a copy of CoD4, how would I go about modifying the weapon files to test the different GunKick parameters? 1. Go to the Call of Duty 4 /main/ folder 2. Open up iw_11.iwd with any zip program like 7-Zip 3. Extract the Weapons folder 4. Edit the weapon files inside the weapons/mp/ folder with Notepad 5. Put the weapons folder into a new .zip file, rename it with the ".iwd" extension (make sure the zip file opens up to /weapons/, not the mp and sp folders, the directory is necessary to work right) 6. Go to the Call of Duty 4/Mods/ folder (make it if it isn't there, it should be) 7. Put that .iwd in a folder of your creation (like COD4/mods/test/) 8. Start up the MP game and click on Mods in the main menu 9. Select your mod, named after whatever you'd named your mod folder And then for testing, some important commands in the dev console: "devmap [map name]" (I like to use mp_backlot) "give [weapon name]" (their names are the same as the weapon files) sustain_ammo 1 (for infinite ammo) timescale 1.0 (speed up / slow down the game's passage of time, seeing recoil at one fifth the speed using 0.2 could be helpful)
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5
Quick question: if I were to obtain a copy of CoD4, how would I go about modifying the weapon files to test the different GunKick parameters? 1. Go to the Call of Duty 4 /main/ folder 2. Open up iw_11.iwd with any zip program like 7-Zip 3. Extract the Weapons folder 4. Edit the weapon files inside the weapons/mp/ folder with Notepad 5. Put the weapons folder into a new .zip file, rename it with the ".iwd" extension (make sure the zip file opens up to /weapons/, not the mp and sp folders, the directory is necessary to work right) 6. Go to the Call of Duty 4/Mods/ folder (make it if it isn't there, it should be) 7. Put that .iwd in a folder of your creation (like COD4/mods/test/) 8. Start up the MP game and click on Mods in the main menu 9. Select your mod, named after whatever you'd named your mod folder And then for testing, some important commands in the dev console: "devmap [map name]" (I like to use mp_backlot) "give [weapon name]" (their names are the same as the weapon files) sustain_ammo 1 (for infinite ammo) timescale 1.0 (speed up / slow down the game's passage of time, seeing recoil at one fifth the speed using 0.2 could be helpful) Danke, kind sir. While you're here and while I'm waiting for CoD4 to download (through Steam) do you have any insight you can give us into those GunKick parameters?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 9:04:24 GMT -5
I've finally got my hands on a copy of CoD4 and have been playing around with a modded m4. I can say one thing for certain: the recentering with GunKick is different from ViewKick.
I modified an M4 to have no idle sway and no Viewkick, then gave it GunKick numbers that matched the ViewKick numbers of an MW3 AK47 (same as all CoDs?). Hoping that the recentering mechanic was the same, I set adsGunKickAccel to 1400, the same as its adsViewKickCenterSpeed; the thing turned into a laser beam.
So, its probably the case that the three variables I thought were obsolete actually aren't. Oh well.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 9:56:39 GMT -5
So things are getting... weird.
There seems to be a bug -- or what I assume has to be a bug -- when I use timescale to slow down the game. I modded my M4 to have no viewkick, no sway and gunkick values of 0 left/0 right/ -100 down/100 up (i.e. a guaranteed upward kick of 100). I also set all the other GunKick variables to 0. But when I fire my gun with timescale set to anything below 0.25, I get no gunkick whatsoever; it literally disappears!
It's either a bug or a very telling sign about the mechanic of gunkick, but if this is significant in anyway I can't figure out how.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 5, 2012 12:21:35 GMT -5
Probably bug, doesn't make any sense to simply disappear.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jul 5, 2012 13:16:42 GMT -5
I agree. This game [engine?] seems really sensitive to any imperfect conditions.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 14:52:29 GMT -5
Yeah, this GunKick stuff is really much more complicated than I thought it would be -- and more than it probably has to be. I think I'm done with it for today: I have to get ready for work. If any of you feel up to it you can help with the testing, too.
But yeah, to borrow legitbeastin's vernacular, GunKick is most definitely "worst pony".
Edit: Well, I lied about switching off for the day. I've got a bit of time to kill and I fired up the game once more to do more tests. So I tried this with my ViewKick-less, sway-less M4:
adsGunKickReducedKickBullets=0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent=0 adsGunKickPitchMin=-100 adsGunKickPitchMax=-100 adsGunKickYawMin=0 adsGunKickYawMax=0 adsGunKickAccel=800 adsGunKickSpeedMax=1000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay=0 adsGunKickStaticDecay=0
So the gun always receives a kick upward of 100 (as before). Well, all I had to do was fire the gun once when the ironsights started bouncing up and down like a spring, with the original point of aim as the center. This is a world of difference from ViewKick, which did not allow cross-axial movement. ViewKick would have glued the irons to the point of aim as they returned to center, but apparently GunKick will allow a weapon to go past it on a single kick. (I might post a video of it tomorrow). This is probably what the decay values are meant to prevent.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 5, 2012 16:46:02 GMT -5
So, any ideas to what happens when you change the Speed Max value? Also, what would happen with 0 GunKickAccel?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 15:23:46 GMT -5
So, any ideas to what happens when you change the Speed Max value? Also, what would happen with 0 GunKickAccel? Yes. adsGunKickSpeedMax is exactly as advertised. The speed of the irons can never exceed this value. I know this because when I set adsGunKickAccel to zero and used any value above 100 -- in this case the irons kick straight up until they hit an imaginary bounday and never return -- there was no change in the gun's behaviour. But when I set it to anything below 100 I was able to get off more shots before the gun reached the boundary, an indication that the irons were travelling at a slower pace. (Still using a guaranteed upward kick of 100 at this point.) In light of the fact that GunKick allows cross-axial movement with one kick, this variable is certainly not redundant. adsGunKickAccel is to GunKick as adsViewKickCenterSpeed is to ViewKick. It determines how much acceleration is applied towards bringing the irons back to the center of the screen. Setting it to zero eliminates all effort by the game to recenter the gun.
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Post by Broadband on Jul 6, 2012 15:26:27 GMT -5
Almost always against your favor.
Ba-dum-tsh
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 15:33:34 GMT -5
Almost always against your favor. Ba-dum-tsh
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 20:10:38 GMT -5
The rabbit hole gets deeper. It turns out that, unlike ViewKick, the speed from the previous kick is not erased by the next shot. The settings for my Viewkick-less, swayless M4 this time around: fireTime=1 adsGunKickReducedKickBullets=0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent=0 adsGunKickPitchMin=-1 adsGunKickPitchMax=-1 adsGunKickYawMin=0 adsGunKickYawMax=0 adsGunKickAccel=0 adsGunKickSpeedMax=1000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay=0 adsGunKickStaticDecay=0 So this M4 fires at only 1 round per second, and what I could clearly see was the irons gaining speed with every shot, until it reached that imaginary boundary again. And speaking of that imaginary boundary: it's not (+/-)10 degrees in each direction (like ViewKick), it's (+/-)8 degrees. Why? I have no idea. Here's my proof: The 155 px measures the distance between the original point of aim and the boundary. Now, adsFOV = 50 degrees, and the ratio of width to height of the image is 0.75 (3:4), so the image measures 50*0.75 = 37.5 degrees vertically. Measured from the center, the height is 37.5/2 = 18.75 degrees. Also, the height in pixels from center is 768 px/2 = 384 px Let D be the distance of the player from the wall. Let A be the angle we seek. Then we know that (this is all basic trig): tan(18.75) = 384 px/ D (1) tan(A) = 155 px / D (2) Rearrange (1) for D and substitute into (2) to get A = arctan(155*tan(18.75)/384) = 7.8 degrees I did a similar calculation with ViewKick -- knowing a priori that the angle was 10 degrees -- and found the angle to be about 9.8, a similar error that we see here. I'm satisfied that the angle is actually 8 degrees.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 6, 2012 21:02:10 GMT -5
So, if you made the Speed like 1, if you shoot 30 rounds and then wait, the gun will still be going up =P?
Gosh darn golly gee whiz I wish I had CoD4 for PC. Anybody has a full, clean link to a download? Since I have the game for PS3, it's within the law to download the PC version (in Brazil at least). I feel we are doing some huge breakthrough here. Screw higgs boson.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 6, 2012 21:11:53 GMT -5
And speaking of that imaginary boundary: it's not (+/-)10 degrees in each direction (like ViewKick), it's (+/-)8 degrees. Why? I have no idea. Because the M4A1 has a gunMaxPitch of 8.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 6, 2012 21:19:55 GMT -5
And speaking of that imaginary boundary: it's not (+/-)10 degrees in each direction (like ViewKick), it's (+/-)8 degrees. Why? I have no idea. Because the M4A1 has a gunMaxPitch of 8. How does that translate in our vanilla gunkick numbers? 80?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 21:30:42 GMT -5
So, if you made the Speed like 1, if you shoot 30 rounds and then wait, the gun will still be going up =P? Gosh darn golly gee whiz I wish I had CoD4 for PC. Anybody has a full, clean link to a download? Since I have the game for PS3, it's within the law to download the PC version (in Brazil at least). I feel we are doing some huge breakthrough here. Screw higgs boson. Without any adsGunKickAccel, yes. I'm just testing the GunKick parameters without Accel right now because linear movement is mathematically simple.
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