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Post by individual on Dec 6, 2009 22:36:09 GMT -5
Without repeating all the math (maybe somebody else can double-check my work)...
I just noticed: The M16 + Sleight of Hand Pro + Stopping Power beats all, or at least nearly all primary weapons at any range by a significant margin (assuming their opponent doesn't also use sleight of hand pro -- most people apparently don't).
Assuming you're aiming directly at the target and don't miss.
The SMGs at close range come close, though, as do the LMGs at any range.
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Post by cptmacmillan on Dec 6, 2009 22:38:37 GMT -5
I've been posting all about how burst rifles > all other weapons in ttk if you can aim right. Nobody listens. High damage, highest RoF in the game, and irrelevant recoil.
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Dec 6, 2009 23:04:53 GMT -5
...The only problem with the burst weapons is that they - burst. I avoid them because I'm the guy in every match who's killing my opponents through walls with FMJ, and sadly it's REALLY hard to get kills with the burst weapons through walls. With the automatic weapons you can "feel" where your opponent is running as you shoot through the wall and the little 'hit marker' shows up.
I've tested the recoil of both weapons with all attachments and attack speed; the FAMAS shoots 210 rounds in 50 seconds, the M16 in 43 seconds. The FAMAS is noticeably more accurate than the M16, and it appears that the FAMAS's better accuracy is balanced out with a slower firing rate. ...And since they both do the same damage (40-30) it's up to you weather you want attack speed (M16) or accuracy (FAMAS).
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Post by individual on Dec 6, 2009 23:08:24 GMT -5
I've been posting all about how burst rifles > all other weapons in ttk if you can aim right. Nobody listens. High damage, highest RoF in the game, and irrelevant recoil. Without Sleight of Hand Pro, there's a whole bunch of weapons that beat the burst-rifles at close range... My point is: The burst rifles have a moderately low TTK that's consistent over longer ranges and enough accuracy that the "minimum TTK" at long range actually counts (the F2000, for instance, is so inaccurate that it wouldn't be a fair comparison to say that it would beat a SCAR at long range merely because its TTK minimum is lower). While other weapons do sometimes beat the burst-rifles at close range, the difference is never or almost never greater than 0.14, the time gained from Sleight of Hand Pro. So, at close range, instead of spraying from the hip with an M16... Quickly aim. If you're accurate, you won't be beaten 99% of the time. I think the ACR is comparable to the M16, but you won't conserve ammo the way you do with burst-rifles. |
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Post by individual on Dec 6, 2009 23:11:24 GMT -5
...The only problem with the burst weapons is that they - burst. I avoid them because I'm the guy in every match who's killing my opponents through walls with FMJ, and sadly it's REALLY hard to get kills with the burst weapons through walls. With the automatic weapons you can "feel" where your opponent is running as you shoot through the wall and the little 'hit marker' shows up. I've tested the recoil of both weapons with all attachments and attack speed; the FAMAS shoots 210 rounds in 50 seconds, the M16 in 43 seconds. The FAMAS is noticeably more accurate than the M16, and it appears that the FAMAS's better accuracy is balanced out with a slower firing rate. ...And since they both do the same damage (40-30) it's up to you weather you want attack speed (M16) or accuracy (FAMAS). If you're banging through walls, you'll be wasting lots of ammo. If you use Scavenger or OMA, again, a person with Sleight of Hand Pro gets an extra 0.14 secs to shoot you. About the M16\FAMAS... I think their recoil is the same, but the M16 has sway, while the FAMAS does not. So, at long range, the M16's spread looks wider, but I don't think theres a difference in the radius of each individual burst. Because shooting at walls up close in High Rise, I see no difference... At long range, it's hard to tell. |
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Post by cptmacmillan on Dec 7, 2009 0:10:26 GMT -5
With stopping power, there's a whole lot of weapons that beat out it's ttk at long range where one burst stops killing. Solution: Be a smart person, use both soh and sp, have a faster time to kill than everything that's not instant (shotguns and sniper rifles, mainly).
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 0:12:23 GMT -5
I don't think the M16 has sway, at least not more than the FAMAS. The timing of the bursting is different. Reportedly the M16 burst takes slightly longer to fire but has a much shorter delay between bursts, which would account for having ever so slightly a wider grouping of the burst and possibly actually being able to fire the next burst while you're still not as fully recovered from the recoil kick.
The burst rifles also do not have a slow TTK at close range. With SP they are both 2HK at close range and 3HK at long, both of which are still less than 1 burst, which fires very fast. And in close your TTK is actually only 1/2 of the time it takes to fire the full burst.
In close you just point and click and whoever you're aiming at dies very fast. What is a disadvantage is you can't spray. If your whole burst misses then you're in trouble. And if there are a number of targets you could be in trouble. At close range with SP you are actually wasting a bullet per kill, but you can think of the third as insurance. ;p
Really, I think when we're talking about disadvantages it mostly comes down to a reliance on SP for your TTK and and no spray and pray when you get ambushed.
As for SoH it might be slightly better for them since ADS is a little more important, but the bonus is pretty applicable for all the weapons. Besides, up close you don't even need to worry about it. I've killed many of people with my burst well before I had my sights up.
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Post by individual on Dec 7, 2009 0:42:12 GMT -5
With stopping power, there's a whole lot of weapons that beat out it's ttk at long range where one burst stops killing. Solution: Be a smart person, use both soh and sp, have a faster time to kill than everything that's not instant (shotguns and sniper rifles, mainly). One burst never stops killing with SP. I don't think the M16 has sway, at least not more than the FAMAS. Maybe it's just the animation, but if you look at the M16, it bounces around. The FAMAS is perfectly still. Somebody could do a video comparison, but it's easy: just take both guns and look. The FAMAS doesn't move when aiming. |
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Post by dumdumpop on Dec 7, 2009 0:47:31 GMT -5
M16 has 40 rpm faster RoF than FAMAS while FAMAS has significantly less recoil and .15 seconds longer add time and 1 second longer full reload.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
Assuming you're not getting owned by Models or being touched inappropriately by the lag monster, yeah. It has a better ttk than other guns.
Theoretically, I suppose.
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Post by xg08zero on Dec 7, 2009 1:37:30 GMT -5
i'd love to have more insight on the discussion going on here, but what is "ttk"?
sorry for such a random noob question, I just couldn't find the answer while browsing the boards
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Post by dumdumpop on Dec 7, 2009 1:40:13 GMT -5
ttk= time to kill. No prob in asking questions.
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Post by djuice on Dec 7, 2009 2:21:58 GMT -5
M16 has 40 rpm faster RoF than FAMAS while FAMAS has significantly less recoil and .15 seconds longer add time and 1 second longer full reload. Just wanted to throw that out there. Assuming you're not getting owned by Models or being touched inappropriately by the lag monster, yeah. It has a better ttk than other guns. Theoretically, I suppose. M16, FAMAS, M93 has all same firerate. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=434&page=2#4245 |
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acidsnow
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Post by acidsnow on Dec 7, 2009 2:27:52 GMT -5
If you're banging through walls, you'll be wasting lots of ammo. If you use Scavenger or OMA, again, a person with Sleight of Hand Pro gets an extra 0.14 secs to shoot you. WTF does Slight of Hand have to do with anything? Are you trying to prove something here? ...Using ammo to KILL an opponent though a wall is probably the most skillful use of ammo in the game! ...A waste, is letting your opponent live as he runs behind a thin sheet metal wall. Only Snipers and LMG users have ANY GOOD reason to use Slight of Hand, any other class using Slight of Hand is just stupid; Scavenger is far more useful as a 1st perk, and if you don't realize that by now then maybe you should learn to use your equipment more. |
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Dec 7, 2009 4:27:29 GMT -5
beyond the ADS time being halved who knows.
AFA the burst weapons please keep in mind:
Burst weapons only have the lowest TTK's assuming the target is a 2-3hk in the FIRST BURST. beyond that they have the LOWEST TTK's youre likely to find.
A 3hit kill on the first burst is a close range affair, getting the 3HK at long range wont happen. You're looking alot more into a 2 burst kill with 3-4/6 bullets striking the target, or at very long range 3 bursts with only the first bullet striking.
because of this, when you DO meet that far above average player who can keep 3-4 of his first 6 automatic bullets on target at medium-long to long range, HE has the TTK advantage over YOU the 3 round burst user!
another note is that the FAMAS's TTK is lower assuming a kill in the FIRST BURST. beyond that the M16's higher average fire rate should provide it the kill faster. so when deciding on the two I would suggest using both loaded out the same for an hour and get 50-100 kills with each. Keeping a mental note of how many kills were 1st burst, and how many were after. If the majority are 1 burst, take the famas. If it's above that the M16 will serve you better
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Post by randombs on Dec 7, 2009 4:48:42 GMT -5
If you're banging through walls, you'll be wasting lots of ammo. If you use Scavenger or OMA, again, a person with Sleight of Hand Pro gets an extra 0.14 secs to shoot you. WTF does Slight of Hand have to do with anything? Are you trying to prove something here? ...Using ammo to KILL an opponent though a wall is probably the most skillful use of ammo in the game! ...A waste, is letting your opponent live as he runs behind a thin sheet metal wall. Only Snipers and LMG users have ANY GOOD reason to use Slight of Hand, any other class using Slight of Hand is just stupid; Scavenger is far more useful as a 1st perk, and if you don't realize that by now then maybe you should learn to use your equipment more. You must not be realizing the SoH Pro reduces the time it takes to aim down your sights, this effectively lowers your TTK on all weapons. When you have a gun with already one of the lowest time to kills at ALL ranges (M16 and FAMAS), reducing that even further is going to help you immensely and give you a noticeable advantage over everyone not using it. Most people won't even be able to aim and get off two shots before dying, while you are already sighted and have fired one burst. (Assuming both people see each other at the same time). Also, perhaps you should be less condescending in your posts, as it quite obvious you do not fully understand what you are talking about. Obviously skill is one of the biggest factors when deciding who will win an encounter. Be aware however, the FAMAS does kill in one burst extremely frequently, even at across map ranges. (At least with stopping power, its a 3 hit kill at range) I VERY rarely have to shoot twice if the shot is well aimed, only at far ranges if the target is running left to right in relation to me. After using both the M16 and FAMAS extensively, I can tell you for certain that the FAMAS gets one burst kills far more consistently than the M16. As long as you can hit your first burst with the FAMAS, average ROF over time becomes irrelevant assuming its a one on one encounter. I would still take the FAMAS against multiple enemies, knowing that I will not have to take extra time to fire again at one enemy, and that I can switch to the next target. I don't think an average ROF comparison between the two rifles is fair, because the M16 will miss more often due to a slight recoil that sends shots high. I believe you consistently get more rounds on target faster with the FAMAS. You are my bro, bro. |
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Post by cptmacmillan on Dec 7, 2009 14:13:34 GMT -5
That was a typo, I meant to say without. I think the context there (quoted post saying without and then the rest of my post) pointed towards it being without.
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Post by revolution on Dec 7, 2009 15:51:47 GMT -5
I still prefer Scavenger Pro over SoH on an m16 or famas. Maybe it is because I play more conservatively than most poeple. People that run around with burst fire weapons are more likely to enounter close range combat(in which SoH is better). Before I get Scavenger Pro I always run out of ammo and usually fail to reach high killstreaks(because I fire multiple rounds at more distat people)
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Post by qupie on Dec 7, 2009 18:18:43 GMT -5
both perks are very good, not one is better then the other. @ everybody who thinks SoH is supreme. Dont forget that in that small more time to ADS, you can still aim so when you are sighted you can directly shoot! often with slight of hand I still need a little time to aim. SOH is only really usefull when you also hit him directly!! I'm not saying SoH is not a good perk, I think they are both very good. it is just a choise IMO between these. it is what you prefer. myself I prefer marathon above both  |
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 22:05:37 GMT -5
I rather like SoH pro, especially with a thermal scope on my FAMAS, but yeah the quicker ADS time is good but not god. ;p
I might like scavenger more if I lived longer. >,> Though I am running out of ammo more often lately, but that's usually on my SCAR rather than the FAMAS.
I will say getting all 3 shots to hit at range is really not that big a problem. I often turn my FAMAS into a thermal sniper. The first two hits are almost a gimme, and often I get all three. Plus even when I do miss the third with SP I only need one more hit to kill so the first bullet of another burst or any bullet will do.
SoHpro does give you a quicker TTK, but it's more useful at long range. At short range I've usually fired my first burst before I've even finished sighting and often only get the sights up in time to watch them die. ;p So basically I'd probably be better served with Marathon or Scavenger except on Wasteland, Derailed, Afgan, ect...
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 22:09:23 GMT -5
Oh the other thing I tend to use Perk1 for is I rather enjoy blinging on a HBS. And silencing the FAMAS is practically free since the burst kills even at long range. So I think I currently have either HBS or Thermal blinged with a silencer for long range. (The HBS is more to watch my ass when I'm tactical loitering.)
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Post by dumdumpop on Dec 7, 2009 22:56:51 GMT -5
M16 has 40 rpm faster RoF than FAMAS while FAMAS has significantly less recoil and .15 seconds longer add time and 1 second longer full reload. Just wanted to throw that out there. Assuming you're not getting owned by Models or being touched inappropriately by the lag monster, yeah. It has a better ttk than other guns. Theoretically, I suppose. M16, FAMAS, M93 has all same firerate. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=434&page=2#4245Excellent, so now the M16 and FAMAS arguments can be summed up in: Long range FAMAS Short range M16 woots, thank you PC gamers for saving the console world once again with excellent stats. But, one issue not addressed in this debate about ttk for bursts is that Commando pretty much has a higher priority than bullets (CAUSE WHEN YOU'RE STABBING SOMEONE THEY CAN'T SHOOT YOU RIGHT?!?!?!?) and that the lag monster likes to interrupt our success with epic failure. So, if you're host, then theoretically if your opponent does not have Commando, you have a faster ttk and therefore, should win. Theoretically. Then there's Models with a ttk of -5 seconds... >.> |
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 23:14:33 GMT -5
I don't think a melee charge makes someone immune, but the melee attack has more range than it looks like it does and with lag you may well shoot your weapon on your end before the host has updated you with the fact that he got within melee range and you're already dead. When you watch the kill cam you should see fewer shots than you originally thought you shot if lag is the key. Plus even if your first shot/s hit you gotta get that kill shot before he's in range.
The charge attack could have some form of invulnerability for all I know, though. I'll defer to the experts here on that, I don't know a lot about exactly what happens in a charge except it locks on and extends your melee range.
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Post by cptmacmillan on Dec 7, 2009 23:29:03 GMT -5
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see any advantage of the M16 at close range.
No, it really doesn't. It all depends on how fast they get to you.
If you're host, you have host advantage. Your ttk is improved compared to someone else by however much ping they have and this is how it has been with every game that has a player as host. So if they have 60ms ping, that's 0.06s off of your ttk.
It most definitely does not have any invulnerability frames whatsoever. The biggest cause of people not dying is lag; as you mentioned if you watch the killcam you can often see less bullets than you fired. Which is very, very, very noticeable on shotguns or knives where you have only one shot ("shot" for knives) and it doesn't happen at all in the killcam.
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 23:41:12 GMT -5
M16, FAMAS, M93 has all same firerate. The best testing we have on this done by toysrme suggests that the FAMAS burst is slightly faster than the M16 but the delay between bursts is much longer than the M16 giving the M16 the higher average ROF. It's also not quite as simple as FAMAS for long and M16 for short, but you can go with that. Personally I don't find a problem with the FAMAS at short range either it still 1 burst kills, in fact it 1/3 burst kills with SP, which is 1/2 the TTK of a full burst. The bigger issue is it's not as forgiving if you miss. If you're going to run and gun the M16 will be better, but then there are better guns for that than burst weapons. Still though, the TTK difference is minute, but the delay difference is not. I think the best advice is to try both. |
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Post by dumdumpop on Dec 7, 2009 23:49:47 GMT -5
cptmacmillan I got a question: what platform are you on? Cause I don't have much PC experience but it would make sense there is a lot less lag and life is more balanced, but xbox lag fails. I wasn't speaking literally when I said that knifing makes you immune to bullets, I was just saying that with lag it's rediculous how someone with a knife class and/or a CP marker can turn a corner and own you before your bullets connect from lag. Especially when they're the host, which kills any hopes of balance instantly.
Theoretically, yeah the M16 should outdo a knife or Models but the lag factor makes that theory go away most of the time. And you can't say "just shoot before they get to you", because that's something like a lot of other things (for better or worse), easier said than done.
And also, I didn't mean M16 at close range. I meant it as closer AR range, like more midrange than long. Because since the FAMAS has less recoil, it can more effectively hit targets long ranges. But, because of it's slower reload time than the M16, the M16 becomes more effective when recoil isn't as much of a factor. If it's close range, I personally would use a shotgun...
And I know this message may seem to have an underlying tone of "Im right you're wrong," but that's not how I meant it...
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 7, 2009 23:52:50 GMT -5
It most definitely does not have any invulnerability frames whatsoever. The biggest cause of people not dying is lag; as you mentioned if you watch the killcam you can often see less bullets than you fired. Which is very, very, very noticeable on shotguns or knives where you have only one shot ("shot" for knives) and it doesn't happen at all in the killcam. Good. I didn't think there was any invulnerability, but didn't want to sound like a complete dumbass in case there was. As for the host I honestly think it wouldn't be a bad idea if the net code would add some delay for the host just to make things even. Not a lot, but say it could give the host the effective ping time of the lowest pinging enemy player. It would still be an advantage if you would ping higher than that if someone else hosted, but I think that would be fair. Forcing the host to have a worse ping wouldn't be good. I also specified enemy because if you have a really low ping guy on your team already and the whole other team has bad pings then it wouldn't help the fairness much at all for the host to get the same ping as the other guy on his team. So the lowest ping of an enemy player would be much more balancing. But hey, that's a whole other debate. >,> |
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Post by xg08zero on Dec 8, 2009 0:01:07 GMT -5
making dedicated servers would be a better solution than forcefully induced host latency =P
but yeah a whole different debate (if it really is one) all together
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Dec 8, 2009 0:15:20 GMT -5
OH gawd yes I'd LOVE dedicated servers. At this point I think M$ needs to pony up some of that gobs of cash we pay them for gold and MS points and build their own dedicated server farm. They could easily build in some code to have it dynamically adjust which dedicated servers it starts up and closes down based on need and have it support a multitude of games. That would beat the pants out of Sony and justify our subscription costs. But I doubt they would be even remotely interested in the idea at M$.
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Post by cptmacmillan on Dec 8, 2009 0:29:22 GMT -5
@dumdum: I'm on PC. As far as FAM16 vs. Knives/shotguns, I wouldn't say theoritically anything. Vs. knives the victor is entirely dependent on what distance you spot them at, how fast you can react to them, and latency. Vs shotguns, it depends on you spotting them before they see you, or killing at range, because they have a ttk of 0 with little aim required which will beat every single weapon up close latency aside.
Personally I wish they would include both matchmaking and a dedicated server system. There are advantages to a matchmaking system and I enjoy it, but sometimes I just want to play on dedicated servers. Not that many people would play on matchmaking with dedicated servers in.
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Post by xg08zero on Dec 8, 2009 1:24:00 GMT -5
feel bad for fueling this offtopic discussion of Dedicated Servers but...
all IW has to do is come out with SUPPORT (mainly the software) to setup dedicated support, then release it. People, without a doubt, will purchase their own servers to run for PC users. we all know that from just how many random servers we saw in CoD4, owned by the most completely random types of users, from casual solo players, to low health clans and all the ones inbetween
IW doesn't have to spend the funds hosting their own servers, just give us the (legal) tools for users to do it and the consumer will surely bite it and use it...but IW won't put that effort it...even though there have been hacked dedicated servers already using nothing but the included developer console
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