SOME Halo 4 Weapon Stats

[Z3R0FLAME]

READ THE FOLLOWING

Here's what I have so far. I've pretty much covered all the automatics, semi-automatics, and burst fires (including some ordinance).

Now here's the complications:

1. Having a problem atm with the Time to Kill's on the burst-fire modes. To be frankly honest I just put together what I thought was the closest to the actual times (through manual testing, they seemed pretty standard).I met up with Probaddie and we came up with a very accurate equation for the TTKs for those weapons (of which I have not added to this). Some of you have said that the TTKs and/or RPMs for the other weapons are incorrect, some of you agree that they follow suit to what you feel in the game. If anything, I would go ahead and say there's probably something wrong with the TTKs, as I've used a 100% proof method of calculating RPMs. These problems will be corrected down the road.

2. Did anyone else find that your recording device (Happauge HD PVR here) was recording at 30 FPS? It seemed like it was irrelevant to the testing, as the results aren't really following the 600/750/900 RPM rule. Then again, a lot of weapons in this game aren't actually full-auto.
Note that my frame rate was straight-up constant during this whole thing, with what seems to be a one-frame latency between the shot firing and the ammo count in the right corner going down.It was recorded in 30 FPS, and it seems as though the game is outputting that. All's good here.

3. No idea how to calculate the hip fire spreads or recoil plots. For review purposes, this might not be necessary, but if it's not possible I'll have to find some sort of accuracy%/range comparison. I trust the devs did a good job balancing everything in this aspect, except the Needler has a little bit too much heat-seeking power in my opinion. For those of you who were asking, the supercombine effect requires 8 rounds in an enemy, NOT what was written on the sheet (those shots were paced to avoid a supercombine) The Neddle velocity is about 40m/s.

4. Is the flinch mechanic something that should be taken into account? For example, the Covenant Carbine and DMR are extremely comparable in TTK, except the CC should cause more flinch and the DMR has a tighter ADS spread. To be honest, I think that they should make the CC one less bullet for the shields to go down faster, helping out the headshot hunters. We found that a "bigger" gun with larger magnification (i.e. DMR, Sniper Rifle) will flinch more when hit, and cause more flinch to the target if it's rounds connect.

5. Explosives will take a while, but the standard lethal radius vs. effective radius comparison should be good enough to define the damage output. Mildy hard to test, as it'll take a lot of dying, but feasible nonetheless. So far I've collected four different values - Lethal radius, maximum radius to drop shields, effective radius, and the lowest shield damage that can be inflicted at the extent of the effective radius. From what I have done at the moment, it's a mixed bag, but makes a lot of sense. I have a while to go on this.

Thanks to all of you who've stopped by and either confirmed or disapproved of my results. All of the following will be addressed, including something mentioned about how we'll eventually need some sort of percentage for both shield and health damage based on shots to kill with both of them. Using this we should be able to describe what happens with the Light Rifle's 1-aim 3-burst kill, and maybe something about the melee bleed-through effect.

EDIT 1: Just checked this link from wittyscorpion's post (thanks bro!) from Halo Waypoint:
"BR – 7 bullets to the chest (this gun shoots three bullets in a burst, so the first bullet of the third burst will kill the player), 1 bullet to the head "
(Said statistic was previously speculation to me, but is confirmed through this).

EDIT 2: Changed the link so you can see the equations - I'm a derp.

EDIT 3: For the moment there's a lot for me to check over. Instead of leaving this thread as my active research thread, I'll republish my results in a more interactive thread. In this I'll also include (via download link) the testing footage I'm using, so you guys can compare my results with your own. See you later.

[exaltedvanguard]

Your stats almost exactly mirror how I felt the guns performed based off raw feeling.

You should probably reorganize the chart. Make groups for:
Burst + Semi Rifles
Full Autos
Pistols

BR is the "easiest" rifle to use due to its burst-fire, but also takes the longest to kill. Light rifle burst mode is bad, matching the BR, but zooming in makes it the fastest killing rifle.

DMR and Carbine are pretty much equal. The Carbine will kill faster in ideal situations, but getting 8 quick rounds on target is typically more difficult than 5 slower ones.

As far as flinch goes, I'd say don't try to incorporate it into the TTK stats, but make a separate column. Weapons seem to vary in flinch. Using the light rifle, I noticed a LOT more flinch than it's competitors. I've also noticed the taking hits from the DMR causes more flinch per bullet than the carbine. At least that what it feels like.

To sum up the rifles:
Only use the BR if you struggle with aiming.
Light rifle is the best rifle when scoped, but also suffers the most from flinch. You'll pretty much lose every fight when you're not scoped.
DMR are Carbine are basically tied, and really comes down to player preference. The DMR is just a tad easier to wield, but the Carbine kills just a tad faster.

Overall, I recommend the DMR, as most people will do better with it than the Carbine.

As far as automatics go, the Supressor and SAW are unsurprising. However, the supressor suffers from such huge spread that its numbers are pretty deceptive. In real-game scenarios, the AR generally beats the suppressor.

Is the storm rifle really that much better than the AR? They felt pretty evenly matched (the very few times I've had a fight between these weapons). That seems like a huge difference, so I'd just like those numbers verified. It's possible that the weapon shoots slower (some guns did that in previous games) as heat increases, so the numbers might be skewed. Worth double-checking.

How was the needler tested? Did this include travel time of the rounds? Super-combine? There's a slight delay between the last needle hitting and the super-combine taking place.

Pistols are pretty much as you'd expect. Only thing that jumps out at me is that dropping a shield with the PP only takes 4(!) shots. People looking to "noob combo" might actually be able to drop a shield faster by tapping out those 4 rounds instead of waiting for the overcharge.

Is flinch amount affected by where the shot lands on the body? The angle? Am I right in that the type of incoming round matters? I'd love to see this tested so I can maximize counter-sniping attempts.

How effective is the explosives perk? This would be difficult to measure, I know. I use it since I really have no need for the other perks in that class, but I don't know that it's really doing that much.

[exaltedvanguard]

I did some rough testing tonight.

1) In a, "Stand still and shoot each other," test at various ranges, the storm rifle beats the Assault Rifle. Just barely. BARELY. But it does win.

2) Flinch is determined by both the incoming round type (damage?) and the weapon being used. Using the light rifle, you will suffer from more flinch than you would using a DMR. Being hit by a light rifle round will cause more flinch than being hit by a carbine round.

3) Flinch is not changed by where you're hit. I headshot, belly shot, and foot shot all result in the same amount of flinch. I didn't test side vs head-on flinch.

4) Explosives appear, by rough guesstimation, to be a 25% increase in damage scaling, and 25% decrease in grenade damage received. It does not increase the maximum damage. I forgot to test if it actually results in a bigger splash range, or just raises the minimum damage. Do Halo 4 grenades have a cut off or do they scale all the way down to 0? Something else to test.

5) Armor ability efficiency, like the descritption implies, has no effect on drain rate. It doubles recharge rate.

6) It takes 7 AR or SR bullets for a melee to kill.

7) Friendly fire's off in infinity slayer. Firing a sticky detonator onto your shotgun guy's foot (where it won't get shot) before he runs in results in the expected hilarity.

8) As long as active camo is at half-strength (no jumping, sprinting, or shooting), promethean vision cannot see you through walls, and will only see a blue outline when they have line of sight.

9) If you're really fast with active camo, you can avoid being seen by an enemy promethean vision. In normal circumstances (not tactical loitering and staring at tracker), they'll probably have a quarter to half second to see you before you disappear.

[Z3R0FLAME]

Nov 12, 2012 1:20:11 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

I did some rough testing tonight.

1) In a, "Stand still and shoot each other," test at various ranges, the storm rifle beats the Assault Rifle. Just barely. BARELY. But it does win.

2) Flinch is determined by both the incoming round type (damage?) and the weapon being used. Using the light rifle, you will suffer from more flinch than you would using a DMR. Being hit by a light rifle round will cause more flinch than being hit by a carbine round.

3) Flinch is not changed by where you're hit. I headshot, belly shot, and foot shot all result in the same amount of flinch. I didn't test side vs head-on flinch.

4) Explosives appear, by rough guesstimation, to be a 25% increase in damage scaling, and 25% decrease in grenade damage received. It does not increase the maximum damage. I forgot to test if it actually results in a bigger splash range, or just raises the minimum damage. Do Halo 4 grenades have a cut off or do they scale all the way down to 0? Something else to test.

5) Armor ability efficiency, like the descritption implies, has no effect on drain rate. It doubles recharge rate.

6) It takes 7 AR or SR bullets for a melee to kill.

7) Friendly fire's off in infinity slayer. Firing a sticky detonator onto your shotgun guy's foot (where it won't get shot) before he runs in results in the expected hilarity.

8) As long as active camo is at half-strength (no jumping, sprinting, or shooting), promethean vision cannot see you through walls, and will only see a blue outline when they have line of sight.

9) If you're really fast with active camo, you can avoid being seen by an enemy promethean vision. In normal circumstances (not tactical loitering and staring at tracker), they'll probably have a quarter to half second to see you before you disappear.

First, I'm glad you took it upon yourself to delve into some details - we need more people around here to take Halo on a more technical level. I'll respond to each point accordingly:

1. The SR does make sense to be more powerful than the AR consistently at the closer ranges where accuracy isn't an issue. This references back to your last post, but I'm 100% sure the rounds don't slow down because of the overheat. First, the game guide says it's a direct successor to the Plasma Rifle, of which did not slow down with overheating (contrary to the more effective Plasma Repeater). Second, while testing it, I did not notice any depletion of consistency. Third, the RPM calculated a higher average, and to defend that, the SR has 3 delay frames as opposed to the 4 that are present with the AR.

2. One factor we have to look at is zoom magnification. Understandably, if one were to be flinched, the increased magnification would augment the amount of screen movement. However, I don't deny that a larger round should increase flinch. Down to the basics, if you have a big gun, expect to flinch and flinch more.

3. That's good to know, leaves a heck of a lot less time testing when I get around to it.

4. Halo explosives are a mixed bag. Some, like the Rocket Launcher, have an effective radius outside of the lethal radius that extends to practically zero (making it extremely effective against vehicles since it can bully them around over a large area). Grenades, I'd suspect, do cut off at a non-lethal radius before zero. If they did hit zero "gradually", it'd have to be on such a basis that the distance between such would be minutely untestable and more or less irrelevant.

5. Gee golly whiz, it doubles it? Seems a little bit overpowered when you're using power abilities like PV and Active Camo.

6. This could be an issue, since at the moment I was on the basis that you needed the shields down for a bash to kill instantly. This factored, I'd either have to A. apply this principle to every weapon, a "shots before bash" statistic, or B. assign a damage value to a bash (therefore every weapon would need an overall damage value) and make some sort of master list. Course, I still need to test this for validity between other guns to make sure this applies all-around.

7. Yeah, I was wondering why I haven't gotten a betrayal yet ;D

8-9. Active Camo seems totally absurd on smaller maps. I was on Solace I think and probably got assassinated 5 times because they'd camp the doo-doo out of every corner imaginable in their spawn. Then they call in their ordinance, and poof. Shotgun + wall + AC = happy camper.

Promethean vision should have a heightened ability to see AC's. You said that they were blue outlines even at half-camo. Instead, they should make a gradient-type system, where the less camo they have, the more they'd appear on the scan. Especially when they're still and in the right cover, PV doesn't cut it the way it is right now.

[Z3R0FLAME]

Nov 11, 2012 22:53:17 GMT -5 Mousey said:

I'm gonna say its good to have a second sheet inclue the health of the shield, player, and the vehicles.

The shields I'm presuming to be 100% aka "normal" for core game types. Hopefully I'm understanding that the right way - it'd be kinda useless to come up with some sort of percent yield for every weapon since they're all different and it's better to know how many shots it takes as opposed to a damage value like CoD.

Same goes for player health, it's pretty much 100%.

Vehicles I'm guessing will come later in my research. More or less I'm aiming to get some weapon reviews ready for my YouTube channel and those aren't really the topic matter that I'm currently interested in.

[eLantern]

Nov 12, 2012 10:19:02 GMT -5 Z3R0FLAME said:

8-9. Active Camo seems totally absurd on smaller maps. I was on Solace I think and probably got assassinated 5 times because they'd camp the doo-doo out of every corner imaginable in their spawn. Then they call in their ordinance, and poof. Shotgun + wall + AC = happy camper.

(Shotgun + Wall + AC) indeed equals a very annoying situation to deal with, but don't forget that the Active Camo guy does cause a disturbance to the radar... blue ID indicators will appear which should tip you off that one is nearby. At that point in time it's best to either retreat or tip off nearby allies and see if you can wait out the Active Camo then Ambush him/her... as long as you have the time to do so.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 12, 2012 10:19:02 GMT -5 Z3R0FLAME said:

1. The SR does make sense to be more powerful than the AR consistently at the closer ranges where accuracy isn't an issue. This references back to your last post, but I'm 100% sure the rounds don't slow down because of the overheat. First, the game guide says it's a direct successor to the Plasma Rifle, of which did not slow down with overheating (contrary to the more effective Plasma Repeater). Second, while testing it, I did not notice any depletion of consistency. Third, the RPM calculated a higher average, and to defend that, the SR has 3 delay frames as opposed to the 4 that are present with the AR.

It actually seemed to beat the assault rifle at all practical ranges, albeit just barely. Our longest range test was... hmm... on the top of haven, you have a square area with slanted corners on the areas you can jump up on to (and will get gravlifted on to for one side). We stood on opposite slanted walls, as far apart as possible. I see this as about the limits of their effective ranges and where the could stand a chance in beating a rifle.

2. One factor we have to look at is zoom magnification. Understandably, if one were to be flinched, the increased magnification would augment the amount of screen movement. However, I don't deny that a larger round should increase flinch. Down to the basics, if you have a big gun, expect to flinch and flinch more.

Perceived movement is a factor, but we were only measuring actual movement. Range is arbitrary during these tests as each test is done from the same range.

Our method was to aim at the same place on the opponents head and compare how far off target our aim was after getting shot. A DMR shot would cause the DMR to completely miss, while a DMR would still be on target if shot by a carbine round (and still barely on target when hit by two).

6. This could be an issue, since at the moment I was on the basis that you needed the shields down for a bash to kill instantly. This factored, I'd either have to A. apply this principle to every weapon, a "shots before bash" statistic, or B. assign a damage value to a bash (therefore every weapon would need an overall damage value) and make some sort of master list. Course, I still need to test this for validity between other guns to make sure this applies all-around.

Yeah, melee uses bleed through like every game before Reach. I'm really glad they "fixed" it. I don't know any competitive player that actually liked Reach's melee system. It just led to a ton of double-beatdowns, and if you had to melee in a 2v1, you will die. The best you could conceivably do was 2-1. Now it's possible to go 2-0. On a close-quarters map where this situation happens multiple times, that's huge.

8-9. Active Camo seems totally absurd on smaller maps. I was on Solace I think and probably got assassinated 5 times because they'd camp the doo-doo out of every corner imaginable in their spawn. Then they call in their ordinance, and poof. Shotgun + wall + AC = happy camper.

Promethean vision should have a heightened ability to see AC's. You said that they were blue outlines even at half-camo. Instead, they should make a gradient-type system, where the less camo they have, the more they'd appear on the scan. Especially when they're still and in the right cover, PV doesn't cut it the way it is right now

I disagree. PV needs some counterplay, or it's all we'll ever see (pun intended). We've dealt with campers since before PV or even AC was around. Don't become too reliant on your toys ;D

And really, shotgun+wall is annoying. You don't need AC for that. All it does is tell them there's someone behind the wall, anyway - you can usually guess exactly why someone would be doing that.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 12, 2012 13:21:32 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

Nov 12, 2012 10:19:02 GMT -5 Z3R0FLAME said:

1. The SR does make sense to be more powerful than the AR consistently at the closer ranges where accuracy isn't an issue. This references back to your last post, but I'm 100% sure the rounds don't slow down because of the overheat. First, the game guide says it's a direct successor to the Plasma Rifle, of which did not slow down with overheating (contrary to the more effective Plasma Repeater). Second, while testing it, I did not notice any depletion of consistency. Third, the RPM calculated a higher average, and to defend that, the SR has 3 delay frames as opposed to the 4 that are present with the AR.

It actually seemed to beat the assault rifle at all practical ranges, albeit just barely. Our longest range test was... hmm... on the top of haven, you have a square area with slanted corners on the areas you can jump up on to (and will get gravlifted on to for one side). We stood on opposite slanted walls, as far apart as possible. I see this as about the limits of their effective ranges and where the could stand a chance in beating a rifle.


Perceived movement is a factor, but we were only measuring actual movement. Range is arbitrary during these tests as each test is done from the same range.

Our method was to aim at the same place on the opponents head and compare how far off target our aim was after getting shot. A DMR shot would cause the DMR to completely miss, while a DMR would still be on target if shot by a carbine round (and still barely on target when hit by two).


Yeah, melee uses bleed through like every game before Reach. I'm really glad they "fixed" it. I don't know any competitive player that actually liked Reach's melee system. It just led to a ton of double-beatdowns, and if you had to melee in a 2v1, you will die. The best you could conceivably do was 2-1. Now it's possible to go 2-0. On a close-quarters map where this situation happens multiple times, that's huge.

Anyway, I'd go with shots-to-smash. With damage numbers, you also have to find things like multipliers against shields or flesh.

8-9. Active Camo seems totally absurd on smaller maps. I was on Solace I think and probably got assassinated 5 times because they'd camp the doo-doo out of every corner imaginable in their spawn. Then they call in their ordinance, and poof. Shotgun + wall + AC = happy camper.

Promethean vision should have a heightened ability to see AC's. You said that they were blue outlines even at half-camo. Instead, they should make a gradient-type system, where the less camo they have, the more they'd appear on the scan. Especially when they're still and in the right cover, PV doesn't cut it the way it is right now

I disagree. PV needs some counterplay, or it's all we'll ever see (pun intended). We've dealt with campers since before PV or even AC was around. Don't become too reliant on your toys ;D

And really, shotgun+wall is annoying. You don't need AC for that. All it does is tell them there's someone behind the wall, anyway - you can usually guess exactly why someone would be doing that.

[wittyscorpion]

Great effort, thanks a lot for starting it.

What I would like to know is

1) how many shots are needed before a melee kill. Seems to me for DMR (and probably BR and LR) the answer is 3.

2) What's the effective range for boltshot to OSK

3) Rough idea of 1SK/2SK/3SK range for scattershot and shotgun. I am having trouble using these weapons effectively as I don't have a good sense as how close I need to get near the enemy before starting to shoot.

Also, if I understand correctly the consensus is Storm Rifle > AR (by a very small margin) > Suppressor?

[wittyscorpion]

Talking about AAs:

PV & JP are no question the most useful ones as you can use them in many situations.

AC is very annoying but it seems to be only useful in Dominion, when tactical loitering inside rooms needs to be done from time to time.

TP is much less useful than expected, but I would say that it is still OK. It is good at dodging things: grenades, vehicles, strafe into cover when getting shot from unknown directions on large maps, etc. Offensively I can see usage in situations that you have a CQC weapon (Shotty / Scattershot / Hammer / Sword) and want to close a gap quickly, but I have not tried that yet myself.

HLS is good for one thing: bait when you have teammates around you. In a teamshooting scenario this can be quite useful. Take the point to attract enemy fire (bullets and grenades), so your teammates can get head start on shots. HLS guy also has the option to switch to shooting mode when he is no longer the target, this adds richness to tactics. Not very useful if you are by yourself, as you will be quickly flanked.

Hologram is another tool for adding richness to tactics, probably the most fun to fiddle with:

a) The most common use is to attract enemy fire when turning a corner so you can get the first shot on the enemy while he uses his first 1 or 2 shots on your fake double.

b) flank enemy behind cover. shoot out hologram one way while you are going the other so he has a 50% chance of guessing wrong.

c) Produce the illusion of greater force on enemies' radar. Useful in scenarios like tactical retreat.

etc.

Autosentry is another tool of distraction. Since it is static, it provides less tactical richness vs. hologram. When defending a fixed location (e.g.: flags), it is marginally useful.

In summary:

Category 1 - AAs that are useful all the time: PV, JP, TP. In terms of power of usefulness, PV ~= JP > TP.

Category 2 - AAs that are situationally useful: AC / HLS / Holo / AS. Hard to compare among them as they are for different situations. AS feels the weakest, might be better reserved for Spartan Ops play instead of MP.

Category 1 in general > Category 2.

[exaltedvanguard]

I find AC to be much more useful than PV. I can counter it with AC, and AC gives a tactical advantage. If nothing else, you're just a tiny bit harder to see at a distance which is very important in this long range rifle game.

At range, I like to crouch out of cover when my shields are low and they think I'm running to basically get a free shot and tip the fight in my favor.

I can definitely see how PV can be useful. But with some spatial awareness, map knowledge, and your better-than-ever tracker, I really don't see it as necissary or even that good. It's more for players who can't "see through walls" with their tracker.

This changes with tracker off, of course, but IDGAF about game types that throw out a major game mechanic.

[eLantern]

Nov 12, 2012 15:45:57 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

Talking about AAs:

HLS is good for one thing: bait when you have teammates around you. In a teamshooting scenario this can be quite useful. Take the point to attract enemy fire (bullets and grenades), so your teammates can get head start on shots. HLS guy also has the option to switch to shooting mode when he is no longer the target, this adds richness to tactics. Not very useful if you are by yourself, as you will be quickly flanked.

I would add to what you've mentioned... what I've seen occur more and more often with the HLS is it's use in longer range battles with good amounts of nearby coverage. For example: You are in a semi-long distance battle where you get the upper hand and break the enemy's shield first or tie in breaking each others, they immediately throw up their HLS and begin a retreat to hard cover in order to replenish their shield. If you begin your Sprint or a Grenade throw they drop the shield and begin firing to take advantage of your vulnerability or they continue their retreat knowing you won't be able to reach them in time. Also, they tend to usually call for support when the shield goes up so that leaves you vulnerable to fire from their teammates. This doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it effectively use in this manner on maps such as Complex (mostly this map), Vortex, Longbow, Meltdown, Exile, Solace, and even Haven to some degree. I find it get's less effective use on the smaller maps in the manner in which you mention. Sure it can be of some use as a point man, but that person will usually get avoided pretty quickly if they have their HLS up right away because all the fire will just get directed toward their teammates and once they've been dropped then he or she should be pretty easy pickings... because any moment he or she is not firing, by choosing to have the HLS up is likely a moment where they are giving the firing advantage to the opposing team. Now, if they were firing with their teammates, but then raised their HLS just before their armor's shield was broken or just after ensuring that they truly served as a bullet absorbing decoy, then later (hopefully after the player advantage swung to their side, maybe when they noticed the enemies having to reload) drop the shield for perhaps some easy finishing shots.

BTW, you forgot to mention the Regeneration Field AA.

[wittyscorpion]

Nov 12, 2012 16:26:07 GMT -5 exaltedvanguard said:

I find AC to be much more useful than PV. I can counter it with AC, and AC gives a tactical advantage. If nothing else, you're just a tiny bit harder to see at a distance which is very important in this long range rifle game.

At range, I like to crouch out of cover when my shields are low and they think I'm running to basically get a free shot and tip the fight in my favor.

I can definitely see how PV can be useful. But with some spatial awareness, map knowledge, and your better-than-ever tracker, I really don't see it as necissary or even that good. It's more for players who can't "see through walls" with their tracker.

This changes with tracker off, of course, but IDGAF about game types that throw out a major game mechanic.

Looks like you are using AC beyond just situationa. I am very interested in how you use it in various combat situations:

1) Do you use it on small maps (i.e. the 5 maps in non-big-team IS)? If yes, how do you use it?

2) Do you use it across all game modes? If yes, what strategies do you apply with AC in these game modes? In particular, how do you use it in IS?

Regarding PV, below are my thoughts:

For players new to H4 this is absolutely the best that trumps everything. You don't need extensive map knowledge, just rely on PV to reveal enemies for you.

For players who have played H4 for enough sessions (say > 10 hours), the above usefulness decrease as most of the times you can get the same intel by combining motion sensor with your map knowledge. However, I found PV still very useful for the following:

1) Before going one direction, sweep through the opposite direction of the entire map to make sure no enemies are around, to minimize the chance of being flanked.

2) Check for static enemies behind cover.

3) Look for players in AC.

4) See what weapon the red dot charging to you direction is holding, and plan accordingly.

5) With PV I can pre-nade much more accurately. Maybe for advanced players this is not a problem.

One factor that could further nerf the PV is when Stealth armor mod becomes widely available among players. With that as a counter I can see many PV usages listed above become less powerful.

[wittyscorpion]

Forgot to mention Regen Field. RF is pretty straight forward, an AA useful only between fights to get shield recharge faster so you can get back to fight faster. Can be used as bait as well to lure the chasers into open.

[josefrees]

What spread mechanic does halo use? The longer you shoot the further from center the shots go?

[Z3R0FLAME]

Nov 12, 2012 17:34:05 GMT -5 josefrees said:

What spread mechanic does halo use? The longer you shoot the further from center the shots go?

Yeah, that's basically the idea. Whereas CoD has a static hipfire accuracy, Halo produces what I'd consider to be a multiplicative worsening of such. It's almost like CoD aiming - if you don't allow enough time to recenter, your gun will grow increasingly innacurate. There's a minimum value (i.e. pulsing the Assault Rifle will give you a fairly straight spread) and a maximum value (after about 6-10 rounds, depending on the gun, it will reach a point where it can't be more inaccurate). The question of finding those values will be challenging.

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 12, 2012 16:38:26 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

I am very interested in how you use it in various combat situations:

I use it almost exclusively now. The main thing to remember with AC is that its benefit aren't as tangible, so you won't notice its benefits as quickly as you would with, say, jetpack. However, I feel that the intangible benefits actually out-weigh the benefits of other AAs.

There's rarely a time that it's not useful, if not for any reason other than making you harder to see. This is similar to using hologram in a combat situation. Where hologram might draw a bullet away or make them double-take for a half-second, AC achieves the same benefit by making you harder to see. Even if you aren't crouching, it will take that tiny extra bit for them to see you, letting you line up your shot and begin firing faster than they can.

Again, like hologram, it can confuse the enemies with misinformation. Activate it while charging with the teammate. They see 2 red dots, plus a bunch of blue. Is it just two guys or is there a third one sneaking around with camo?

AC has more utility than hologram, though.

There's the obvious fact that it make you invisible. You can use this in the same way you always have. Shotgun tactical loitering, easymode sniping, etc.

It's a great counter to PV, and you can easily get the jump on people using PV because they can't see you through walls. This alone makes AC extremely powerful, since you can directly counter an enemy's AA while still gaining benefits of your own.

I will say that it's (counter-intuitively) much better for long-range combat rather than close-range. A favorite tactic of mine to win a 1v1 which is tied is to run behind cover, camo, and crouchwalk back out. At range, they can't see the flicker of downed my shields. If we're both one-shot and he can't see me... well... I win that fight. Heck, I almost always get two shots in to their one using this trick.

In close range combat, it's good if you like to juke. Every time you switch directions, you disappear from radar for a split second and/or turn into a blue dot. With the added noise on their radar it just takes that extra split second to reacquire you on tracker. There's that tiny hesitation as they wonder if you're just juking or if your stopping to crouch camp. "If he's gonna crouch-camp, what does he have? Am I gonna get shotguned? He was only half-visible and I couldn't make out what was on his back." That tiny bit of edge can (and will) turn fights around.

One more thing to remember with AC: Compared to Reach it lasts a REALLY long time and comes back a LOT faster. Abuse the hell out of it. It will always be there when you need it.

For players new to H4 this is absolutely the best that trumps everything. You don't need extensive map knowledge, just rely on PV to reveal enemies for you.

For players who have played H4 for enough sessions (say > 10 hours), the above usefulness decrease as most of the times you can get the same intel by combining motion sensor with your map knowledge.

I completely agree with this analysis. I'd say its level of benefit takes a massive nosedive once you learn the maps.

1) Before going one direction, sweep through the opposite direction of the entire map to make sure no enemies are around, to minimize the chance of being flanked.

2) Check for static enemies behind cover.

3) Look for players in AC.

4) See what weapon the red dot charging to you direction is holding, and plan accordingly.

5) With PV I can pre-nade much more accurately. Maybe for advanced players this is not a problem.

1) With intelligent movement combined with map-awareness, I rarely find this to be an issue. Generally when you get flanked, its because you've advanced past someone not because someone was chasing you.

2) This is the main strength of PV and why it was made, so I'd agree. I will note, however, that we've dealt with these campers for 11 years of Halo without it. Not to trying to say it isn't a useful ability, but most people can get by just fine without it. Once you know there's a shotgun guy somewhere in the base, flushing him out isn't too difficult.

3) This actually goes to AC. Unless you have LoS, you don't see them. If you have LoS, they're probably shooting you anyway. Half-camo works as well as full-camo for fighting PV.

4) Fair enough.

5) I'd agree with both statements.

[josefrees]

I've been using the AC pretty exclusively and it makes many cqc situations easy. See a guy on radar? Set trap. If you are really patient you can walk pretty directly to wherever you want. If you use it with sensor, you can be pretty invisible--run where until your sensor goes off and they don't even know you are there. I've had a lot of success tactical loitering the enemy areas [like chilling in the enemy base on ragnorak for as long as I want until a mech spawns or a sniper spawns]. I've had a few instances where I just crouched in a corner when a guy was pursuing me an watched him look for me in the place I was and walk right by me. With power weapons you can absolutely wreck whole teams withvery little risk.

I was excited for the Autosentry but the animation makes it useless to me.

[Z3R0FLAME]

Great discussions people, I'm glad that some of what I could provide helped you a bit. Right now I'm working through the issues and I expect to get in another mechanical sheet in about a week - effective accuracy over range. I'll also try to fill in more guns for the first sheet of stats and make it look nice so you guys can more easily comprehend everything.

[Lexapro]

I don't think you have a single correct value under Fire Rate Calculations or Time to Kill.

[wittyscorpion]

To the AC related posts above, thanks a lot for sharing. I just reached level 41 and have all 5 loadouts unlocked, and I'll definitely get started on this AA by having at least 1 dedicated loadout.

[wittyscorpion]

Important intel regarding light rifle:


1) To get a 4SK, you only need ONE scoped shot!

What this means is that you can zoom in for a quick first shot and then zoom out and use it like how you use BR/DMR from hip, and kill with 4 shots.

2) 2 scoped shots + melee = kill

Since getting shot will not knock you out of zoom, LR can be used in CQC by zooming in for a quick double tap and then follow with a melee.

These are surprising and make LR a very powerful weapon.

[Lexapro]

If the shield has 60 HP, most of the weapons can be assigned integer values for damage per shot (for shields)
AR: 6
BR: 5x3
DMR: 15
Storm Rifle: 6 (maybe test again, shields seem to fall in only 9 shots)
Cov. Carbine: 9 (unsure because it seems like 7 shots perfectly drops shields in equal increments w/o bleedthrough)
LR Scoped: 20
LR Unscoped: ??x3 (This one bothers me. 4x3 is too weak for the above video to work. 5x3 is too strong because it can't drop shields in 4 shots.)
Suppressor: 5
Magnum: 12
PP: ~18 (Drops shields in 4 shots but gets really close with 3. There's definitely bleedthrough on the last shot)
Boltshot: 6
Needler: 10
SAW: 6

Damage scaling is definitely different for health and without a bar, it's more difficult to say exactly how much damage each shot deals.

Things to try:
See if 3 Magnum shots + 1 PP shot drops shields. That should pin PP power to 18.
See if 5 Cov. Carbine shots + 1 BR burst drops shields. That should pin CC power to 9.
Different combinations of the Unscoped Light rifle and other weapons. Pissing me off.

[Z3R0FLAME]

Nov 13, 2012 11:38:14 GMT -5 Lexapro said:

If the shield has 60 HP, most of the weapons can be assigned integer values for damage per shot (for shields)
AR: 6
BR: 5x3
DMR: 15
Storm Rifle: 6 (maybe test again, shields seem to fall in only 9 shots)
Cov. Carbine: 9 (unsure because it seems like 7 shots perfectly drops shields in equal increments w/o bleedthrough)
LR Scoped: 20
LR Unscoped: ??x3 (This one bothers me. 4x3 is too weak for the above video to work. 5x3 is too strong because it can't drop shields in 4 shots.)
Suppressor: 5
Magnum: 12
PP: ~18 (Drops shields in 4 shots but gets really close with 3. There's definitely bleedthrough on the last shot)
Boltshot: 6
Needler: 10
SAW: 6

Damage scaling is definitely different for health and without a bar, it's more difficult to say exactly how much damage each shot deals.

Things to try:
See if 3 Magnum shots + 1 PP shot drops shields. That should pin PP power to 18.
See if 5 Cov. Carbine shots + 1 BR burst drops shields. That should pin CC power to 9.
Different combinations of the Unscoped Light rifle and other weapons. Pissing me off.

There are a lot of added complications if we were to assign a constant for HP, whether that be health or sheilds. Not every weapon kills in the same ratio for shield down shields and body shots - for example, the Plasma Pistol downs a shield in 4 shots but takes another 8 to kill someone to the chest. For the sake of simplicity I think it's just better to have things on a per-shot basis (with guns, of course, there's a whole different mechanic for explosives, etc.).

In response to your previous statement about my RPMs and TTKs, they should all be accurate except for the burst fire TTKs. I talked to probaddie yesterday night and we worked on a different equation for them. He checked over my other calculations and said they checked through. I used Sony Vegas to find the times the everything took. Unless someone else tests them and proves otherwise, I'll stand by what I said should be accurate.

[eLantern]

Nov 13, 2012 11:38:14 GMT -5 Lexapro said:

If the shield has 60 HP, most of the weapons can be assigned integer values for damage per shot (for shields)
AR: 6
BR: 5x3
DMR: 15
Storm Rifle: 6 (maybe test again, shields seem to fall in only 9 shots)
Cov. Carbine: 9 (unsure because it seems like 7 shots perfectly drops shields in equal increments w/o bleedthrough)
LR Scoped: 20
LR Unscoped: ??x3 (This one bothers me. 4x3 is too weak for the above video to work. 5x3 is too strong because it can't drop shields in 4 shots.)
Suppressor: 5
Magnum: 12
PP: ~18 (Drops shields in 4 shots but gets really close with 3. There's definitely bleedthrough on the last shot)
Boltshot: 6
Needler: 10
SAW: 6

Damage scaling is definitely different for health and without a bar, it's more difficult to say exactly how much damage each shot deals.

Things to try:
See if 3 Magnum shots + 1 PP shot drops shields. That should pin PP power to 18.
See if 5 Cov. Carbine shots + 1 BR burst drops shields. That should pin CC power to 9.
Different combinations of the Unscoped Light rifle and other weapons. Pissing me off.

Does 2 non-charged PP shots + Melee = Kill?

[exaltedvanguard]

Nov 13, 2012 12:21:13 GMT -5 Z3R0FLAME said:

In response to your previous statement about my RPMs and TTKs, they should all be accurate except for the burst fire TTKs. I talked to probaddie yesterday night and we worked on a different equation for them. He checked over my other calculations and said they checked through. I used Sony Vegas to find the times the everything took. Unless someone else tests them and proves otherwise, I'll stand by what I said should be accurate.

Either the AR or SR is off. Firing simultaneously at point-blank, there's most definitely not a 500ms disparity between the two.

[Lexapro]

If the AR fires at 600 rpm, that means it can shoot 10 rounds a second. If it kills in 16 shots, then how can TTK be 2 seconds? The game runs at 30fps right? So that means the frame delay between each shot is 3 and the shot delay is .100 seconds. TTK is therefore 1.5 seconds.

Or something as simple as this. The gun unloads in 3 seconds right? It takes exactly half the magazine to kill. So how is TTK not half of unload time?

Let's look at the DMR assuming your RPM value is correct.
155 rpm / 60 seconds per minute = 2.583 shots per second.
Shot delay = 1/2.583 = 0.387 seconds
30 frames per second / 2.583 shots per second = 11.613 frames per shot (your frame delay)
TTK Body = 7-1 shots / 2.583 shots per second = 2.323 seconds

You guys are definitely missing something because the numbers on your own chart disagree with each other.

[brandon7s]

The game definitely runs faster than 30 frames per second. Just judging by eye, I'd say it runs between 45-55. Doesn't quite look 60, but I'd be absolutely shocked if it was a mere 30 fps.

[Lexapro]

"Despite the wholesale changes to the core rendering technology in Halo 4, it's surprising how close the new game sticks to the targets set by Bungie in the older iteration of the engine: 30FPS remains the target, and v-sync with just the odd micro-tear at the top of the screen remains in effect."

www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-halo-4

[skitrel]

I'm not buying these TTKs, in my own testing I get completely different results to yours. The best method for testing TTK is to frame count, the game runs at 30fps. All that's necessary is running theatre mode, ticking over the video frame by frame and acquiring counting the exact number of frames to kill.

The DMR and BR both have identical TTKs with all shots hitting, 1.6s, 48frames to kill. This remained identical throughout 10 tests, I doubt it ever changes.

It's incredibly easy to get the exact TTKs from theatre mode, I'm shocked at the disparity between your BR and DMR results and my own.

In response to wittyscorpion: That method is inferior to just using a DMR or BR as they normally work. Scoped in the LR kills in 1.3s 4 shot, scoped out it kills in 1.9s 5 shot. The ROF changes between the two, Though I haven't tested this combination I can't imagine the TTK being much faster than DMR/BR at 1.6s. Fuck it, I'll do the math -

57frames/5 unscoped makes 11.4 frames per shot.
39frames/4 scoped makes 9.75 frames per shot.

9.75+(11.4*3)=43.95 frames. That's 1.46s TTK using that technique, unless my math is incorrect somewhere. Honestly I don't know whether that's worth it for the significantly higher flinch the light rifle has causing a higher chance to miss or the greater autoaim of the BR at mid, or the greater autoaim range of the DMR. Anecdotally I haven't been able to make the Light Rifle work better than any of the other precision weapons whenever I've implemented it, despite the numbers showing it ought to be good, the autoaim differences between weapons definitely change how guns perform in practice. It should also be noted that the burst in the light rifle isn't as rapid as the burst of the BR, you thus have more chance to miss bullets within your bursts which could easily increase your TTK to a 5 shot.

BR best up close, DMR even with BR at mid, DMR obviously best at range, in my opinion of course.

Now can someone do some full testing properly? Because the numbers in this chart are nonsense, even people performing stopwatch tests on youtube using PVR footage haven't come close to the numbers here.

Example, here's a chart a redditor created stopwatching: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag_41uvwYj9ydHBFaHlNRFRkVFFWS05tXzU4dk93cFE#gid=0

Here's a video with stopwatching from another, though it appears he's not doing it local but over live with a friend as you can definitely see the lag on last shots, even with lag he gets a faster TTK than 2s with the BR as you've got to:

I'm happy with my own numbers, whether they're right or wrong the rough idea is what matters in Halo due to autoaim and other factors differing between weapons, a straight up TTK will not tell you the best weapon to use, every weapon has a precise situational range with which it should be used. Choice of weapon in Halo is nowhere near as simple as choice of weapon in military shooters like Call of Duty or Battlefield. There is a lot of situational experience that has to be applied, you need to take into consideration average engagement distances for the map, your own preferred playstyle, the playstyle of your opponents, how a map is playing out, and even then a bit of brain power used by your opponent and a failure in you to predict him can turn a fight you should statistically win into a fight you're now guaranteed to lose if you do not disengage immediately.

Throw into the equation teamfire and weapon choice becomes even more complex, a team of BRs will beat a team of DMRs for example thanks to bleed through. In team fire scenarios 2 BRs are 100% preferable to 2 DMRs except at extreme range.

Folks need to take a step back and reevaluate how to gauge and test here. An end goal for testing ought to be present, I feel fairly confident in saying pretty much everybody is here for CoD, Battlefield or any other game because they're trying to work out what the absolute best gun to use in the game is. Well, if we're going to apply that end goal to testing in Halo, a more complex system of measures needs to be in place in order to label what the best gun to use is, either per map, or per arbitrary range segments short to long. Even then though more complex situational knowledge regarding teamfire needs to be expressed as it's highly important, as I was saying with BR vs DMR.