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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 17, 2012 17:02:47 GMT -5
img27.imageshack.us/img27/6712/bo2weaponchartv102.pngHaven't seen this posted around here yet. But it's the updated stats after patch 1.02. Overall, some AR's got a little bit of range buff, some SMGs got a range nerf. SMG balance seems kinda wonky. MSMC got a slight range nerf, PDW57 got a slight range buff. I thought the PDW57 was already a little bit better pre-patch, now I think it has a definite advantage. Either way, MP7 and Vector are still kings of the SMG class.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Nov 17, 2012 17:16:43 GMT -5
What does the range mean in terms of the map? For example, in Drone, how far is it from the raised mud at the back of the map to the helipad overlooking B dom? How far is it across the courtyard on Slums overlooking B dom?
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Post by Voice from the Basement on Nov 17, 2012 17:59:37 GMT -5
Overall, some AR's got a little bit of range buff, some SMGs got a range nerf. Intra-SMG balance seems kinda wonky. MSMC got a slight range nerf, PDW57 got a slight range buff. I thought the PDW57 was already a little bit better pre-patch, now I think it has a definite advantage. Either way, MP7 and Vector are still kings of the SMG class. I do agree with you: I think huge capacity advantage of PDW-57 is already enough to balance MSMC's little distance, reload, and recoil (predictable but higher recoil is better than unpredictable and lower recoil) advantages. But it's IW Treyarch…
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 17, 2012 18:25:20 GMT -5
What does the range mean in terms of the map? For example, in Drone, how far is it from the raised mud at the back of the map to the helipad overlooking B dom? How far is it across the courtyard on Slums overlooking B dom? That's hard to say. Honestly you kinda have to get a feel for it just by using different guns. The MSMC and MTAR stop killing in 3 bullets before shotgun range ends. The only concrete reference 9 = knife range.
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Post by Voice from the Basement on Nov 17, 2012 18:43:30 GMT -5
What does the range mean in terms of the map? For example, in Drone, how far is it from the raised mud at the back of the map to the helipad overlooking B dom? How far is it across the courtyard on Slums overlooking B dom? That's hard to say. Honestly you kinda have to get a feel for it just by using different guns. The MSMC and MTAR stop killing in 3 bullets before shotgun range ends. The only concrete reference 9 = knife range. If Knife range stood unchanged it's easy to translate the range into units and meters. The multiplayer's practice shows it's so (if forget the lagcompensation that allows you to have auto-Commando on Knife). But there's no XM25 to prove it.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 17, 2012 19:17:38 GMT -5
Hmm I thought m8a1 sf fired slower than 900rpm. I'll try it out this prestige and compare to type 25 with grip/etc.
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Evan950
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Post by Evan950 on Nov 17, 2012 20:13:59 GMT -5
what amazes me is the fact that the game has only been out for 1 week, and they have done more than 3 patches to the gun balancing weren't they balanced enough on release? what you just realise it now?
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Evan950
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Post by Evan950 on Nov 17, 2012 20:15:21 GMT -5
wait, when did this patch come out? i had this picture saved a day ago
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2012 20:34:19 GMT -5
what amazes me is the fact that the game has only been out for 1 week, and they have done more than 3 patches to the gun balancing weren't they balanced enough on release? what you just realise it now? There's only bee one known patch for gun balancing, and that was like on release day. PC got an update yesterday, and PS3 got an update today--but no mention of gun balance(unless it was behind 360). BTW hollywood, how are vector and MP7 kings of the smg class, when they have lower TTK times than every other smg in its class at close range, as well as significantly higher recoil? The MP7 only has a 4 hit kill TTK advantage over MSMC from within 47-63 units of distance from a target, while the MSMC continues to have a 4 hit kill that extends 64-95 more units away from a target, than the MP7. And the father you shoot, the smaller the target appears, and the more inaccurate you'll be, when you shoot with a higher recoil weapon.
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Post by pwnsweet on Nov 17, 2012 20:49:31 GMT -5
OK, so I couldn't help myself. I just tested the effect that Rapid Fire has on range. Ouch. The 3HK range on MSMC drops from 46 to 20!
I'll probably test out all the guns now...
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 17, 2012 20:56:57 GMT -5
What about the other ranges? I mean, 4hk, 5hk and 6hk. It would be good to know if it was some percentage or a deliberate choice for each gun.
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Post by ElysMustache on Nov 17, 2012 20:58:13 GMT -5
BTW hollywood, how are vector and MP7 kings of the smg class, when they have lower TTK times than every other smg in its class at close range, as well as significantly higher recoil? You know lower TTK is better, right?
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Post by bmac39 on Nov 17, 2012 20:59:19 GMT -5
Wait, putting on Rapid Fire increases drop off speed? Not just fire rate?
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2012 21:09:58 GMT -5
BTW hollywood, how are vector and MP7 kings of the smg class, when they have lower TTK times than every other smg in its class at close range, as well as significantly higher recoil? You know lower TTK is better, right? What? Faster kill time weapon>slower kill time weapon, assuming both targets shoot at each other at the same time and 100% accurate with their shots, and faster kill time weapon has the same recoil or better. Only thing I'm not taking into account, is flinch.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 17, 2012 21:11:47 GMT -5
low ttk is better than higher ttk. 0.1 ttk is better than 0.2
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Post by pwnsweet on Nov 17, 2012 21:14:21 GMT -5
What about the other ranges? Already tested. It's not a percentage. All guns needs to be tested individually. Doing all drop offs right now and will report back when finished accompanied by *sigh* a new spreadsheet to reflect the new info.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2012 21:14:57 GMT -5
low ttk is better than higher ttk. 0.1 ttk is better than 0.2 Oh... I get what you guys are saying. I thought lower TTK means slower time to kill. My bad. My question still stands though. MSMC and PDW57 kill faster at most ranges than the MP7 and Vector, and have significantly lower recoil than them as well. I want to know why he thinks MP7 and Vector are top tier in the smg class.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 17, 2012 21:18:32 GMT -5
What about the other ranges? Already tested. It's not a percentage. All guns needs to be tested individually. Doing all drop offs right now and will report back when finished accompanied by *sigh* a new spreadsheet to reflect the new info. Silencers are a percentage right? Looking at Snake's chart, you can see that almost every range reduction is 25% from the original value. His chart only contains ARs, so I'm not sure.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 17, 2012 21:22:17 GMT -5
low ttk is better than higher ttk. 0.1 ttk is better than 0.2 Oh... I get what you guys are saying. I thought lower TTK means slower time to kill. My bad. My question still stands though. MSMC and PDW57 kill faster at most ranges than the MP7 and Vector, and have significantly lower recoil than them as well. I want to know why he thinks MP7 and Vector are top tier in the smg class. Time To Kill How could taking longer to kill possibly be translated to killing faster?
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2012 22:43:04 GMT -5
I know what TTK means. I thought "higher" TTK translated to a faster kill time. I got the "higher" and "lower" meaning jumbled up.
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Post by bm01 on Nov 17, 2012 22:44:28 GMT -5
"Time to kill" is pretty self explanatory. The less the better. My question still stands though. MSMC and PDW57 kill faster at most ranges than the MP7 and Vector, and have significantly lower recoil than them as well. I want to know why he thinks MP7 and Vector are top tier in the smg class. The MSMC has indeed one of the best TTK at almost all range if we don't take the Skorpion and the Chicom into account. However it is beaten by the MP7 between 47 and 63 "range units" (and by the Vector between 47 and 51), but only by ~0.066 seconds. I think personally that TTK is irrelevant on this case, they're pretty close, so here's what's left : - RoF. In close combat a high RoF is more forgiving, making your effective TTK less random. - Number of bullet to kill. 5 instead of 6 makes a difference at long range or when you don't see much of the target, because your TTK is already pretty bad in this case. - Recoil. Not only its strength but also its randomness, which can be important at medium range. - Ammo capacity. To some extend. The MSMC is perfectly usable at close range, I personally ADS event at close range (at least when I'm not taken by surprise), making the RoF difference irrelevant. I guess you can use the laser to counterbalance this too. Anyway for most players the MP7 has the advantage here. At medium range, well, this is where it becomes complicated. Their recoils are very different. The MSMC's is completely random but with a little luck will not push its weapon too far, however the MP7's will always push its weapon upward and heavily needs to be compensated. But theoretically you can have a better accuracy with this kind of more constant recoil. Personally I don't see much difference between the two of them on this point (in term of efficiency), in my opinion only the Vector shines by its small recoil, and the opposite for the Skorpion. At long range having to put one bullet less is clearly an advantage (or even two between 89 and 95, not sure if that's "long range" however), specially when the guy is at a window. There's nothing much to say about it. Edit : there's still the "extreme long range", where all SMG requires 6 bullets, but that's above ~120. In the end, well, I think both weapon are good without any big flaw, but I tend to do better with the MSMC because of my play style. ... Anyway I prefer the Skorpion Easier to control than the MP7 even with its high recoil and extremely powerful (best TTK). But it has two flaws, the number of bulled needed and its ammo capacity.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 17, 2012 23:21:03 GMT -5
And then there's the variable called flinch, get gets thrown in the mix. Higher damage rounds and more rounds per minute cause more flinch, right?
Definitely complicates things..
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Nov 17, 2012 23:26:03 GMT -5
wait... smg's can ADS in BO2!? i put a laser sight on and forgot...
my opinion of the skorp is going downhill. its just soooooo many bullets to kill and keeping it on target with rapid fire is difficult (and its not like you can kill two-three people per clip ammo is gone in the blink of an eye) the skorpean is the perfect case of a "stats monster" that in practice is worthless. it'd need a p90 clip to be better (and then it'd be so imba it wouldn't be funny)
i really think on the current balances that: FAL & chicom > overall better than everything else 5x7 + laser sight + long barrel is the NEXT best weapon (i'm not kidding. it's a flipping 2-3 hit kill laser at most ranges and shoots really quickly!) the msmc is probably the best all around
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PassiveVengance
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Post by PassiveVengance on Nov 17, 2012 23:31:57 GMT -5
Skorpion rapid fire/laser is best pony
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PassiveVengance
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Post by PassiveVengance on Nov 17, 2012 23:33:42 GMT -5
Also on second note, I need a higher res image for my smartphone, so the chart can at least be readable. Can a bro help me out??
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Post by pwnsweet on Nov 18, 2012 0:02:55 GMT -5
Also on second note, I need a higher res image for my smartphone, so the chart can at least be readable. Can a bro help me out?? The current image is 3k x 1k. That not high enough res? So the rapid fire values are done and they're...interesting. At the moment I'm debating with Corpse whether we should include suppressor range values. Suppressor+ Rapid Fire values are for another day.
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banana
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Post by banana on Nov 18, 2012 0:06:48 GMT -5
And then there's the variable called flinch, get gets thrown in the mix. Higher damage rounds and more rounds per minute cause more flinch, right? Definitely complicates things.. I thought damage doesn't matter for flinch
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 18, 2012 0:54:19 GMT -5
OK, so I couldn't help myself. I just tested the effect that Rapid Fire has on range. Ouch. The 3HK range on MSMC drops from 46 to 20! I'll probably test out all the guns now... What the Foxtrot!!! Rapid Fire already has a hip fire penalty, now it ALSO has a huge range penalty??? Also, combining Rapid Fire and grip on the MSMC, gives it insane recoil. Seriously what the hell is Treyarchs problem?? Silencers are a percentage right? Looking at Snake's chart, you can see that almost every range reduction is 25% from the original value. His chart only contains ARs, so I'm not sure. Someone in another thread said it varies by class. 30% penalty for ARs and LMGs, 85% for shotguns, 75% for SMGs At first I was kinda of surprised to see that Treyarch allowed Rapid Fire + Ext Mags in this game, but now I understand. Huge nerfs to Rapid Fire (your gun is literally worse overall with it) and ext mags being nerfed down to 33% or less of mag size. The more I learn about the stuff going on beneath the surface in this game, the more I dislike it.
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Post by volgon on Nov 18, 2012 1:20:56 GMT -5
At first I was kinda of surprised to see that Treyarch allowed Rapid Fire + Ext Mags in this game, but now I understand. Huge nerfs to Rapid Fire (your gun is literally worse overall with it) and ext mags being nerfed down to 33% or less of mag size. The more I learn about the stuff going on beneath the surface in this game, the more I dislike it. What? Why? Can you imagine how retarded this game would be if RF didn't reduce range? The SMGs are boss enough without giving them Stopping Power.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 18, 2012 1:33:57 GMT -5
If they cant balance the attachment in a logical manner, it should be scrapped. RF reducing range; select fire reducing range... makes no sense.
Recoil, ammo capacity... or something like that... makes more sense.
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