Grenades Discussion

[novanleon]

Here is a smorgasbord of my (informal) grenade testing results:

• All grenades have the same throwing distance and arc.
  
• Frag explodes in approx. 6- seconds after pressing button (whether released or not).
  
• Semtex explodes in approx. 3+ seconds after releasing.
  
• Flash explodes in approx. 2+ seconds after releasing.
  
• Stun explodes in approx. 3+ seconds after releasing.
  
• Smoke explodes on impact with the ground and/or after coming to rest after bouncing.
  
• Frag and Semtex both display location warning markers.
  
• Frag does approx. half the damage of the Semtex, and thus has half the kill radius. (Frag est. 1 meter kill radius, Semtex est. 2 meters kill radius)
  
• Semtex does approx. the same damage as the C4 and Claymore.
  
• Frag can be primed before thrown, the Semtex cannot.
  
• Frag will roll around and bounce after landing, the Semtex will stick to the first object it touches (including other players).
  
• Frag can be thrown back, Semtex cannot.
  
• Frag and Grenade Launcher do approx. the same damage.
  
• Blast Shield will let you survive a point-blank explosion from a Frag or Grenade Launcher.
  
• Blast Shield will NOT let you survive a point-blank explosion from a Semtex. It appears to reduce the kill radius of the Semtex by approximately half though.
  
• Flash grenades effect appears to take into account line of sight of the player with the flash "sphere" surrounding the Flash grenade, as well as proximity to the grenade itself. This would explain why some Flash grenades will flash yourself even though the grenade itself isn't directly within sight.
  
• Flash grenade now gives a hit indicator unlike in COD4 where only the Stuns had the hit indicator.
  
• Stun grenade effect seems to be proximity based and goes through some objects, and seems to have a secondary, greatly reduced flash effect that is line-of-sight based like the Flash grenade. More testing may be needed on this to determine the rules around what objects are ignored or not.
  
• Since Flash grenades are primarily line of sight based, they effect players from a further distance than Stuns (easier to flash yourself). Since Stuns are primarily proximity based, they effect players within a shorter distance (more difficult to stun yourself).
  
• Blast Shield makes you immune to the stun effect of Stun grenades.
  

Things I forgot to test:

• Do both Flash and Stun grenades temporarily disable Claymores? For equal amounts of time? From equal distances?
  
• Do both Flash and Stun grenades effect Sentry Guns? (I've never seen it myself).
  
• Someone said that teammates Stuns/Flashes will disable your Claymores? Is this true?
  

Frag vs. Semtex

Is the much reduced kill radius of the Frag worth the ability to prime the grenade, it's only advantage? (requiring you to be much more accurate with your throw and timing). Is the larger hit radius of the Semtex, combined with the much shorter timer and sticky ability greatly overpower the Frag? Is priming really that useful given the short timer of the Semtex?

Post any questions, ponderings or information you have to share for discussion.

You are my bro, bro.

[mdnl]

The main advantage for frag over semtex is that it won't stick to the first object it touches.

Bouncing a primed frag off a door frame is often needed but I guess you could stun then move in with the gun in those situations but a good clean kill without having to get your hands dirty is always nice.

[acidsnow]

An allies/enemy's Flash/Stun will disable your own Claymores/C4 even when the grenade goes off behind a wall and has no line of sight on the Clay/C4 (AoE is all that matters)... Not sure for how long, but from exp I'm guessing ~5 seconds.

A Sentry Turret will get disorientated for ~1 second (maybe 2), while disoriented it will still try to target you as it fires blindly (I think the turret still sees you, but its aim is greatly off because the game increases the size of the turrets hit box as it 'sways around firing within that box that outlines you as a target').

[ecomni]

Dec 16, 2009 11:47:31 GMT -5 novanleon said:

Frag vs. Semtex

Is the much reduced kill radius of the Frag worth the ability to prime the grenade, it's only advantage? (requiring you to be much more accurate with your throw and timing). Is the larger hit radius of the Semtex, combined with the much shorter timer and sticky ability greatly overpower the Frag? Is priming really that useful given the short timer of the Semtex?

I think, if IW is really serious about all the updates, that Frag vs Semtex needs to be greatly considered. I'm trying to use frags more now just for the sake of using frags, and I'm just not getting nearly the amount of kills I would if/when I use semtex.

I really think the current way is backwards. For semtex to have such a short fuse (no need to cook) and easy placement, the blast radius should be weaker than frags, not stronger. It burns my bottom when I cook a frag for a good while only to get a hit-marker rather than a kill, whereas if I just lazily chucked a sticky, the guy would've certainly died.

I don't really see the ability to bounce as an advantage; I see it as a tradeoff. For example, on Terminal at C, people really like to camp inside the corner opposite Burger Town. Getting a kill there with a frag is harder because it has to be cooked properly and you have to take into account the bounce. Getting a kill with a semtex is easy because you just need to throw it at the ground around the corner.

The only advantage, IMO, that frags have over semtex is that you can throw a frag a longer distance without it exploding in mid-flight.

[juice]

Frags are better for certain things, like taking out a guy on a roof above you. I agree, though, overall, semtex is better.

[i8]

No cause frags will bounce off or roll off the roof

[novanleon]

In my experience the Semtex' fuse is long enough to make the full flight when thrown, I tried throwing it at a distance where it would blow up mid-air and the only circumstances where this occurs is when you're standing higher than your target and you throw it up in order to get more air time. There may be other circumstances but generally the Semtex has just enough fuse to get where you're throwing it, even at long distances.

PS. My opinion is they could better balance the Frag and Semtex by either: (pick one)

• Increasing the damage of the Frag to be the same as Semtex.
  
• Decreasing the damage of the Semtex to be the same as the Frag.
  
• Increasing the Semtex timer by 1-2 seconds, giving players more time to escape the larger kill radius.
  

[randombs]

Semtex does TWICE the damage of the frag? What the hell was IW thinking?

If you use semtex you get twice the damage, it can't be thrown back, shorter fuse so you don't have to stand there cooking it off, it sticks to players and surfaces, and it won't roll away from where you want it to go.

If they want to balance it, they should just switch the damages and radius of the semtex and frag. I might consider using frags if they did this.

[Den]

Science time!

The Frag still has a 3.5 second fuse, starting after the Frag's RaiseTime animation finishes and exactly when the grenade can be thrown.

The Semtex has a 2 second fuse, starting once thrown.

From the MP Logs, the Frag has a maximum center damage of 150 and a edge of 50.
The Semtex, though, has a maximum of 200 and a minimum of 50.

The Frag also has a smaller blast radius. A line in one of the .gsc files makes a reference to it's MP version - 220 inches, a 30 inch window of safety in the grenade indicator range.

Unlike the Frag, both the Semtex and C4 have a 256 radius with 200-50 damage.

My suggestion:
Semtex fuse does not start until it has stuck to something.
While this will allow more "skyscraper" throws, it also gives players two seconds to get out of range.
Those two seconds would be an eternity compared to the Frag which will have less than one second left from the same throw.

[smokemaxx]

You sure about the Blast Shield - Semtax interaction? I know I've survived a stickied Semtax with a Riot Shield/Blast Shield Class.

[i8]

That's cause it was stuck to ur riot shield not u

[novanleon]

Dec 16, 2009 17:12:49 GMT -5 smokemaxx said:

You sure about the Blast Shield - Semtax interaction? I know I've survived a stickied Semtax with a Riot Shield/Blast Shield Class.

If you had a Riot Shield and Blast Shield, that would give you a double-layered defense against the explosion, that might explain how you survived.

[chyros]

Dec 16, 2009 16:57:20 GMT -5 Den said:

Science time!

The Frag still has a 3.5 second fuse, starting after the Frag's RaiseTime animation finishes and exactly when the grenade can be thrown.

The Semtex has a 2 second fuse, starting once thrown.

From the MP Logs, the Frag has a maximum center damage of 150 and a edge of 50.
The Semtex, though, has a maximum of 200 and a minimum of 50.

The Frag also has a smaller blast radius. A line in one of the .gsc files makes a reference to it's MP version - 220 inches, a 30 inch window of safety in the grenade indicator range.

Unlike the Frag, both the Semtex and C4 have a 256 radius with 200-50 damage.

Nice, well done. . I like these figures, it confirms what I kind of suspected and more: the killing area of a Semtex is almost two-and-a-half times bigger than that of a Frag (well, 2.41 times).

Dec 16, 2009 16:57:20 GMT -5 Den said:

My suggestion:
Semtex fuse does not start until it has stuck to something.
While this will allow more "skyscraper" throws, it also gives players two seconds to get out of range.
Those two seconds would be an eternity compared to the Frag which will have less than one second left from the same throw.

An interesting suggestion, but wouldn't it be bad to buff the Frag instead of nerfing the Semtex? It kind of sounds like nerfing the Semtex would render them both useless instead of both useful .

[Den]

The intent of the idea is to make it less of a Halo grenade and more of a planned throw kind of grenade.
Currently, Semtex is most commonly used right after a stun thrown into a room. The thing is thrown through a doorway and will often take out players before they even see it coming - that makes the new Frag obsolete with its lowered power, longer fuse and rolling around.

By making the fuse start after contact, that would add to the "fuse" an extra second or so on throws, both giving it a fuse time similar to the frag for short throws as well as letting it have greater versatility for distance throws (also giving players a chance at avoiding a Semtex).

Basically it is the same thing as adding a second or two to the fuse.

[chyros]

Dec 16, 2009 19:35:18 GMT -5 Den said:

The intent of the idea is to make it less of a Halo grenade and more of a planned throw kind of grenade.
Currently, Semtex is most commonly used right after a stun thrown into a room. The thing is thrown through a doorway and will often take out players before they even see it coming - that makes the new Frag obsolete with its lowered power, longer fuse and rolling around.

By making the fuse start after contact, that would add to the "fuse" an extra second or so on throws, both giving it a fuse time similar to the frag for short throws as well as letting it have greater versatility for distance throws (also giving players a chance at avoiding a Semtex).

Basically it is the same thing as adding a second or two to the fuse.

Hmmmyes, but would you propose a change to the Frag as well, then? Because personally I think the Semtex is, in absolute terms, relatively well-balanced, and that the Frag is too weak.

[smokemaxx]

I thought riot shield offered zero defense against Semtax? Is it just that Semtax does ~250 damage and riot shield only decreases it a little bit (but not enough to protect against Semtax)? Thus, when used in combination the player is protected?

[ecomni]

Even if they were similar in power, I think the fact that the semtex "auto-cooks" mid-flight would still make semtex better than frags, rather than different. For many situations when I want a cooked grenade, I want it to explode maybe a little over a second after the throw. With a frag, I have to stand vulnerable for a second to do this, being aware of my surroundings. With a semtex, I just throw it because the fuse time is usually adequate for many if not most of these "cooked grenade" situations. I think when I kept noticing that I was killing people (and getting killed) almost as soon as the grenade touched a surface was when I gave up frags, even before realizing how much weaker frags were.

I do like Den's suggestion of starting the fuse post contact (though, technically, that change is actually making it more like a Halo grenade, because that's how plasmas worked in that game).

[das147369]

As for the OP, I thought stuns only detonate when they hit the ground, I remember messing around on highrise and throwing stuns off the side, 10 seconds later there'd be a muffled boom and a tiny puff way down there.

[mannon]

Mebbe everyone knows this, but as I've not seen it I'll put it in here.

Flashbangs will set off explosive barrels, but not oxygen tanks. I don't know about stuns, I haven't tested them. But the flash explosion definitely detonates explosive barrels, it's actually quite useful in a few key places. ;p

[toad]

Just to comment on the Blast Shield reference. I used that yesterday, and got killed by a grenade launcher. The grenade impacted on the wall behind me. Does that mean the blast shield only works if the explosion is in front of the player? I'm fairly sure he wasn't using Danger Close.

[playn]

in my experience ALL grenade launcher shots that are on the side of you and behind you will kill you 99% of the time even with blast shield on

blast shield does nothing IMO. it hasnt protected me from anything at all

[cptmacmillan]

Stuns do indeed set off explosive barrels, it's a tactic I use often.

[novanleon]

Dec 17, 2009 8:40:09 GMT -5 playn said:

in my experience ALL grenade launcher shots that are on the side of you and behind you will kill you 99% of the time even with blast shield on

blast shield does nothing IMO. it hasnt protected me from anything at all

In my testing I couldn't kill a player with Blast Shield on with a single shot from a grenade launcher, no matter where it hit.

Are you sure you had the Blast Shield turned "on"? (screen view narrows, map goes away?) Perhaps you were wounded?

[playn]

Dec 17, 2009 9:47:24 GMT -5 novanleon said:

Dec 17, 2009 8:40:09 GMT -5 playn said:

in my experience ALL grenade launcher shots that are on the side of you and behind you will kill you 99% of the time even with blast shield on

blast shield does nothing IMO. it hasnt protected me from anything at all

In my testing I couldn't kill a player with Blast Shield on with a single shot from a grenade launcher, no matter where it hit.

Are you sure you had the Blast Shield turned "on"? (screen view narrows, map goes away?) Perhaps you were wounded?

yep i used to always use it in my riot shield class (now replaced with throwing knife) and i found that i never once survived a grenade launcher shot unless it was fired in front of me
and yea it was turned on (blocking half my screen) and all. no damage taken before the blast most of the time and yea. its just a really iffy perk

[toad]

LOL! Didn't know you had to "turn it on" Ooops.

[novanleon]

Dec 17, 2009 10:05:14 GMT -5 playn said:

Dec 17, 2009 9:47:24 GMT -5 novanleon said:

In my testing I couldn't kill a player with Blast Shield on with a single shot from a grenade launcher, no matter where it hit.

Are you sure you had the Blast Shield turned "on"? (screen view narrows, map goes away?) Perhaps you were wounded?

yep i used to always use it in my riot shield class (now replaced with throwing knife) and i found that i never once survived a grenade launcher shot unless it was fired in front of me
and yea it was turned on (blocking half my screen) and all. no damage taken before the blast most of the time and yea. its just a really iffy perk

He must have had the Danger Close perk, the is the only way this is possible I think.

[juice]

Yeah, blast shield will save you from a lot of stuff, unless they have danger close perk. The danger close perk will enable practically anything to kill you again.

[mannon]

Yeah I ran with Blast Shield with it off for a while before I accidentally found out I had to actually put it on. heh At first I didn't even realize it was the blast shield and it freaked me out that it kept happening. The description could have been a bit better on how to use it. heh

As for it helping I've squatted practically right on top of grenades and they didn't kill me so it definitely does help. In fact I find that I live much longer with it than without it when I play HQ.

[playn]

Dec 17, 2009 11:38:20 GMT -5 novanleon said:

Dec 17, 2009 10:05:14 GMT -5 playn said:

yep i used to always use it in my riot shield class (now replaced with throwing knife) and i found that i never once survived a grenade launcher shot unless it was fired in front of me
and yea it was turned on (blocking half my screen) and all. no damage taken before the blast most of the time and yea. its just a really iffy perk

He must have had the Danger Close perk, the is the only way this is possible I think.

im not sure, it was with a lot of people. maybe danger close is a very popular perk? haha dont really know

[mannon]

Depends... People that use the tube a lot probably do like DC. Different game types also attract different class setups. (Why I really wish IW gave us 5 classes per game type, rather than just 5 classes. It would be nice to not have to manually edit all my classes just because I switch from one game type to another.