Mechanics of Hipspread and ADS Delay

[Marvel4]

Hipspread

Descriptions:

hipSpreadStandMin: Smallest diameter the crosshairs can contract to.
hipSpreadDuckedMin: Size of the crosshairs at rest when crouched.
hipSpreadProneMin: Size of the crosshairs at rest when prone.
hipSpreadMax: Largest diameter the crosshairs can expand to while standing.
hipSpreadDuckedMax: Largest diameter the crosshairs can expand to while crouched.
hipSpreadProneMax: Largest diameter the crosshairs can expand to while prone.
hipSpreadFireAdd: Amount by which the crosshairs expand per bullet fired.
hipSpreadTurnAdd: Rate of crosshair expansion due to player panning the view in any direction.
hipSpreadMoveAdd: Rate of crosshair expansion due to player movement.
hipSpreadDecayRate: Rate at which the crosshairs try to return to the Min hip spread size.
hipSpreadDuckedDecay: Multiplier of Decay Rate for crouched stance, controlling how fast the crosshairs return to Crouch Min.
hipSpreadProneDecay: Multiplier of Decay Rate for prone stance, controlling how fast the crosshairs return to Prone Min.

Values:

Weapons	hipSpreadFireAdd	hipSpreadMoveAdd	hipSpreadDecayRate	hipSpreadDuckedDecay	hipSpreadProneDecay
ARs, LMGs, AKS-74U, Kiparis	0.6	5	4	1.05	1.1
SMGs, MPs	0.52	4	4	1	1
Sniper Rifles, M14	1	5	5	1	1
Shotguns	0	0.1	5	1	1
Model 1887, Ranger	1	0	5	1	1
Shotguns (Black Ops)	0.6	2	4	1.05	1.1
HS-10 with Dual Wield	1	2	4	1.05	1.1
Handguns, 93R, Crossbow	1	4.5	4	1	1
Makarov with Dual Wield	1	4	4	1	1
Launchers	0.4	2.3	2.5	1.375	1.6
Bazooka	0.25	0	1.5	1.375	1.6

Details:

hipSpreadFireAdd:
0 = Min hipspread
1 = Max hipspread

hipSpreadMoveAdd:
Time it takes to go from min to max hipspread when moving = 1 / (hipSpreadMoveAdd * moveSpeedScale)

hipSpreadDecayRate:
Time it takes to go from max to min hipspread when not moving or while ADS = 1 / hipSpreadDecayRate

Example:

When standing still and firing one round, the hipspread of ARs and LMGs goes from 0 (min hipspread) to 0.6 (60% between min and max hipspread) and then goes back to 0 in 0.15 seconds (0.6 / hipSpreadDecayRate).


ADS Delay

When aiming down sights, the spread can be different from the standard ADS spread, depending on if the current hipspread is higher than the minimum.
To get the ADS spread, you have to wait until your hipspread reaches the minimum.

Examples:

When aiming down sights while moving with an AR, it takes 0.25 seconds to finish the ADS animation and then 0.25 seconds (1 / hipSpreadDecayRate) to go from 1 (max hipspread) to 0 (ADS spread).
When aiming down sights directly after moving with an AR, it takes 0.25 seconds (1 / hipSpreadDecayRate) for the hipspread to go from 1 (max hipspread) to 0 (min hipspread) and to finish the ADS animation.

[probaddie]

Nice. Well done, good sir.

This gets my nod for a sticky in the Conclusions thread.

[Megaqwerty]

Is this ADS delay separate from the one previously known or is it the very same? (I.e. the ADS delay is variable across weapons and scenarios and thus not always 200 ms.)

Regardless, bravely done, comrade.

Assuming the same values in BO2, this means that shotguns take 450 ms to fully obtain ADS spread upon completion of sprint out, but will have a spread between their hip spread and their ADS spread between 250 to 450 ms.

On the 870 and the KSG, the laser thus may be very potent for shots fired closer to the 250 ms mark. The same may be true for snipers attempting to rail gun, but is probably irrelevant at most ranges.

As you approach the 450 ms mark with a shotgun, the laser means less and less as the value has the same end point and time scale regardless of the attachment.

Given my play style, this means that having a laser and quickly ADSing in CQC is not futile. SMGs may also benefit from laser and quick draw due to this.

[Megaqwerty]

This is different from our previous thoughts on this topic.

Previously, we thought that there was a static delay to ADS spread.

Now, however, we know that the delay is the continual reduction of ADS spread, which is a very distinct phenomenon.

[probaddie]

Dec 10, 2012 20:21:10 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Its the very same. Youll notice that for ars and smgs the delay is .25 start to finish. And snipers/shotties are .2

However since its a gradual change, the effect is actually less prominant than what was initially thought (at least in my opinion).

That's what I gathered. This is what ADS functional delay is: the gun switches from hipSpread to adsSpread only after the weapon reaches hipSpread[stance]Min, and this occurs only after the ADS animation is finished. (I hope that's right.)

[bm01]

Lol, I deleted my post too late :/
So yeah, I was asking about the laser sight, but after Megaqwerty's post it was quite obvious that sniper rifles (hence railgunners) also benefit from it.

[Dumien]

<- Meet Dumien.

"Hi Dumien"

Dumien doesn't know what these stats mean even with Marvel's examples.

"Sorry Dumien"

Can you spoonfeed this info for Dumien?

"Sure, how much will you pay us?"

Nothing.

[RageHulkSmash]

I think having something like this is retarded. Everyone expects shots to go exactly where they aim at when they ADS. Wouldn't it make more sense if this didn't exist and your spread reduced as you ADS in?

It definitely explains the extra lag when snapping onto targets and not getting hit markers for the first few shots. I feel like this is just extra lag on top of latency that could easily be removed by the devs. The only weapons imo that warrants something like this is quickscoping snipers.

Does having a decayrate of 0 mean your ADS will always spread like hipfire?

[bluespark]

Dec 11, 2012 3:19:08 GMT -5 RageHulkSmash said:

I think having something like this is retarded. Everyone expects shots to go exactly where they aim at when they ADS. Wouldn't it make more sense if this didn't exist and your spread reduced as you ADS in?

Well, you can argue about whether or not it's a 'good' feature to have in the game, but I, for one, find this new insight (all hail Marvel) much more satisfying than the previously assumed "static ADS delay." Why? Well, it just 'makes more sense,' I guess - the higher your current hip spread, the longer it takes for your shots to become accurate. It is, in a way, very consistent with the core game mechanics of Call of Duty.

Still, I completely agree that it's stupid to leave the average player in the dark about this. If you ask me, they should simply have made the length of the ADS-In animation dependent on your hip spread at the moment ADS is activated.

[Marvel4]

Dec 10, 2012 20:16:39 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

Assuming the same values in BO2, this means that shotguns take 450 ms to fully obtain ADS spread upon completion of sprint out

500 ms, actually, since the shotguns in Black Ops have the same hipSpreadDecayRate as ARs and LMGs.

[Evan950]

Dec 10, 2012 23:58:14 GMT -5 Dumien said:

<- Meet Dumien.

"Hi Dumien"

Dumien doesn't know what these stats mean even with Marvel's examples.

"Sorry Dumien"

Can you spoonfeed this info for Dumien?

"Sure, how much will you pay us?"

Nothing.

im hungry too,
and its late and tired so i didn't really get it either

[-3055-]

This is a nice description of what seemed to be a conclusive topic.

Now, my question is what get ads spread for shotguns sooner when running to ads: laser or quickdraw? If quickdraw even effects the decay rate at all?

[Voice from the Basement]

Marvel4 should be rewarded with "The Bro We Trust" medal, IMO.

---

OK, am I right that if you ADS while running with KAP-40, for example, after pressing ADS button (let's forget about ping and reaction issues) there's actually Hip Spread for first 0,35 seconds, and in first 0,1 second, meaning the ADS animation, it has it's maximum Hip Spread values, and then, in "second" 0,25 seconds, its Hip Spread is going from Maximum to Minimum? Well, if so, I lose my first bullet with Maximum Hip Spread values, and my next 4 (0,25 + 0,036 / 0.064) will be fired with diminishing Hip Spread. It means I've lost the one-third of my clip with Hip Spread values even though I'm ADS'd in – and it's only in theory (practically it means sometimes the loss of half of the clip). Now I see why have they given KAP-40 0,1 sec. ADS in time and the actual benefits of Laser Sight + Extended Clip combination on it.

Correct me, if I'm wrong – I'm too bad in understanding difficult things like this. Also, my English is priti gut tu axplain zis.

[Megaqwerty]

Here's my understanding of this behavior. These particular values are for shotguns, but the concept applies to any weapon.

I have the same understanding as clown.

Dec 11, 2012 9:12:38 GMT -5 -3055- said:

Now, my question is what get ads spread for shotguns sooner when running to ads: laser or quickdraw? If quickdraw even effects the decay rate at all?

Quick draw means you will reach the final stage faster, but a laser will provide tighter spread en route to the final stage. Here's a visual.

Consequently, a laser is superior to quick draw on a shotgun for most of the time.

[Megaqwerty]

We need Marvel to clarify.

Lexapro's interpretation is far more lenient than mine.

[Voice from the Basement]

Dec 11, 2012 10:52:59 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

I have the same understanding as clown.

I was using Marvel4's info ("When aiming down sights while moving with an AR, it takes 0.25 seconds to finish the ADS animation and then 0.25 seconds (1 / hipSpreadDecayRate) to go from 1 (max hipspread) to 0 (ADS spread).") for my idea…So maybe you're right about this thing, either we're both wrong.

[-3055-]

Thanks for the graph, and quickdraw's advantage over laser sight seems very trivial.

Guess I'll be going back to laser & long barrel, even for ads engagements. I'll keep checking back for Marvel4's confirmation, however.

[deston]

Don't forget Quickdraw & Laser sight can be combined guys.

[-3055-]

I'm aware. But I need long barrel. And using two points to add another is stupid.

[Lexapro]

This is now my understanding (verified to be correct):

[-3055-]

Thanks to Marvel4's data testing and charts, I've calculated the time for all primary weapons and pistols:

All assault rifles except for the SMR: 0.50 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.40 seconds.

The SMR: 0.53 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.418 seconds.

-

All submachine guns: 0.45 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.35 seconds.

-

All light machine guns except for the QBB LSW: 0.73 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.61 seconds.

QBB LSW: 0.70 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.5875 seconds.

-

All sniper rifles except for the Ballista: 0.60 seconds.

Ballista: 0.55 seconds.

-

All shotguns except for the m1216: 0.50 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.40 seconds.

The M1216: 0.45 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.37 seconds.

-

All handguns except for the Executioner or KAP-40: 0.38 seconds.
The Executioner: 0.45 seconds.
The KAP-40: 0.35 seconds.

[drift0r]

This is one of the most technical and interesting threads I've seen in a while. It should explain why people have been complaining about bullets going screwball and stuff. Especially with the KSG

[Voice from the Basement]

Dec 11, 2012 13:32:23 GMT -5 -3055- said:

All light machine guns except for the QBB LSW: 0.73 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.61 seconds.

QBB LSW: 0.70 seconds.
With quickdraw: 0.5875 seconds.

That puts ":(" on my clowny face. Also, it means that Laser Sight is a "must have" attachment for the LMGs, especially 'cause of its big Hip Spread decrease. However, I got my only Brutal Killer medal playing with Mk 48 without Laser Sight.

[-3055-]

yeah, it's painfully slow. It's mostly because quickdraw only gives LMGs a 25% ADS speed bonus. Way too low, if you ask me.

[Marvel4]

There's a difference between reducing ADS time by 25% and increasing ADS speed by 25%.

That's why a lot of people thought Quickdraw in MW3 (and Sleight of Hand Pro in MW2) reduces ADS time by 50%, but it actually increases ADS speed by 50%.

[-3055-]

I can see why they should be treated as different functions, but wouldn't they create the same effect? Unless the visual gun ads and systematic ads were controlled by two different set of numbers.

[Marvel4]

Dec 11, 2012 17:37:01 GMT -5 -3055- said:

I can see why they should be treated as different functions, but wouldn't they create the same effect?

No, there is a difference. Increasing ADS speed by 50% reduces ADS time by 33% (1 / 1.5 = 0.66).

[Dumien]

bahaha I've been supporting the use of LS on LMGs from the beginning.

[Amirror]

Wow, so THIS IS WHY I start owning with the QBB LSW all of a sudden after putting Laser Sight + Quickdraw. Great to know.

I'll try this combo attachments with the other LMGs and see if that helps them too.

(I finally got Diamond Shotguns! ...but they still suck, looking at you M1216 and Executioner especially.)

[anthraxx]

Thank you Marvel