How to (Properly) Balance the Grip

[Usagi]

They're adamant about not buffing it for fear of it making some guns MW2 ACR lasers. So it's either OP or worthless. I wish they'd just take it out of the game.

[banana]

Which is why probaddie proposed a percent reduction in viewkick and centerspeed so that grip has the same effect (quality not quantity) on every gun

[asasa]

That would still make weapons "floaty".. smoothed out recoil rather than jittery.

[ingulit]

It is a valuable question to ask which guns are helped by the grip the most, even if it's still not enough to warrant a CaC point. I'd assume the higher the firerate, the more noticeable the almost negligible improvement, meaning stuff like the Skorpion. That's just a guess, though, and I'm open to being proven wrong.

[kirbyderby]

Mar 29, 2013 19:39:29 GMT -5 ingulit said:

It is a valuable question to ask which guns are helped by the grip the most, even if it's still not enough to warrant a CaC point. I'd assume the higher the firerate, the more noticeable the almost negligible improvement, meaning stuff like the Skorpion. That's just a guess, though, and I'm open to being proven wrong.

A valuable question in theory, but when it's a 2% decrease in recoil it's not gonna be a "noticeable" difference, whether you have 600 RPM or 5000. Right now, absolutely zero guns are helped in a tangible manner by the Grip.

[Usagi]

Theoretically, a weapon with a higher centerspeed will benefit more because the bonus is a percent. For example, a gun with 1000 CS will be buffed to 1020, an increase of 20 CS, a gun with 2000 CS will be buffed to 2040, an increase of 40 CS. By this, the guns that are best with the Grip are the LMGs, the XM8, and the Vector.

[Deleted]

Is the Grip even that big of a deal? I mean almost all of the guns in the game have very low recoil as it is and the ones that have a lot like the Scar are easy to control.

[asasa]

Mar 29, 2013 22:30:01 GMT -5 Usagi said:

Theoretically, a weapon with a higher centerspeed will benefit more because the bonus is a percent. For example, a gun with 1000 CS will be buffed to 1020, an increase of 20 CS, a gun with 2000 CS will be buffed to 2040, an increase of 40 CS. By this, the guns that are best with the Grip are the LMGs, the XM8, and the Vector.

I dont think so. It will be completely dependent on the weapons kick values. if higher CS weapons just happen to have unproportionally large kick values, yes.. but otherwise? Not that I can think of..

Doesnt matter if a low recoil weapon has 1000CS or 2000CS. The kick values determine how much a %CS increase helps, not the base CS.

[mmacola]

I believe that weapons that have low recoil but very high rof (say the QBB) are good with grip, simply because of how much easier the recoil becomes. Say you would need 20 bullets to kill someone at long range (thanks to needing 5 hits to kill and you send out 937.5rpm), 20 bullets mean a lot of recoil. Grip would reduce that whole recoil by 20% of what it was going to be.

But yeah, you can just burst fire and save some bullets

[mmacola]

Mar 30, 2013 14:06:07 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Mar 30, 2013 14:03:57 GMT -5 mmacola said:

Grip would reduce that whole recoil by 20% of what it was going to be.

...how?

Well sorry I meant 40%. I said 20% because the last time I explained that to someone I used 10 bullets instead of 20

[ingulit]

Percentages aren't additive like that, I don't know what formula you should use but it isn't just a summation

[mmacola]

Mar 30, 2013 15:27:34 GMT -5 Mousey said:

yeah...After twenty bullets, overall recoil would be reduced by 40% of a single bullet. (or whaever it comes out to when you plug it into the formula)

Sorry if I don't calculate all the variables, but if you reduce say 0.05 degrees from every QBB recoil, in 25 bullets (or 1.5 seconds), needing 5stk at long ranges it will have reduced 1.25 degrees in total, something that otherwise you would have to be the one compensating. In other words it is good for weapons with low but very cumulative recoil.

On the exemple above I considered a 20% accuracy

[mmacola]

Mar 30, 2013 16:32:42 GMT -5 Mousey said:

oh i figured you meant with the current grip. my bad.

Nope. I considered a guy needing to shoot 5 times what he needs to get a kill, and he only hits 20%.

So I just made some calculations (with a lot of rounding so there may be some small variances). IDK the height of a CoD character, but I considered it to be 1.9 meters or 75 inches or however you americans say it. The QBB 5hk range is 50 meters or 2000 inches. By doing some basic trigonometric stuff, it resulted the entire body structure of the enemy at that distance (when talking about height) is little more than 1º, or one degree.

If the grip reduces something as little as 0.025 degrees per shot, it is enough to make a difference in this scenario (if you are playing on Turbine lol).

But again, it is still easier to burst fire. Grip definitely needs a buff

[mmacola]

Mar 30, 2013 17:00:48 GMT -5 Mousey said:

You also need to consider that the 20% is lower than one's true accuracy when fighting. Prefiring/postfiring weighs that down. Not to mention a lot of people will keep shooting after having killed a person since the host needs to acknowledge it.

Sure, but in this case (>= 50 meters) I just assumed that a gun like the QBB would probably have a 20% accuracy

[duckcall00]

Syndicate has been doing some recoil testing in Zombies. It's not a very scientific test, but it proves a point.
What could make the recoil on those two weapons act so strangely? I'm guessing the SMR has high ADS spread, similar to that of a shotgun. But what could give the FAL that perfect 'L' shaped recoil pattern?

[42]

It's possible that Treyarch implemented spray patterns in zombies.

[asasa]

@duck: Thats just ADS spread. Must be used in zombies and really f's that gun up. As for the L, thats normal. It was like that in Black Ops 1 as well. Fire it fast enough and its not a perfect L anymore.

[adw1983]

Mar 27, 2013 17:17:08 GMT -5 Usagi said:

They're adamant about not buffing it for fear of it making some guns MW2 ACR lasers. So it's either OP or worthless. I wish they'd just take it out of the game.

While I think you're right, that is an extreme problem about game developers today:

They are completely freaking retarded!

What I would do before releasing a 100 000 000 000$ game:
Test it.

Freaking TESTING THE FREAKING GAME.

Booya.
Sure, it would take one person about 8 hours, but by all the gods, living and dead -- why the freaking nuggetmuffin do they not actually test the game??!?!

ALL of treyarch's recoil plots look like they, on the day of release, type random and conservative numbers into the spreadsheet for all weapons, blatantly based on CoD4's AK47, and hope it works out.

Just IMAGINE if they actually TESTED each weapon, and then with the attachments affecting recoil, on 3 ranges three times:
1: Close range
2: Medium range
3: Long range

4: Close range through cover
5: Medium range through cover
6: Long range through cover

7: Close range versus a target partially behind impenetrable cover
8: Medium range versus a target partially behind impenetrable cover
9: Long range versus a target partially behind impenetrable cover

Let's assume they're really, really slow and spend 6 hours doing this.

They then have two hours to compare the results:
"Oh my, the SMR is utterly useless on long range at all times -- and it's only decent on medium range, and not good on short range!
Do we want it to be a long range weapon or a medium range weapon?"

"Darn! The SVU really got the short end of the stick! How can we make the compact Dragunov more accurately represent a light assault-rifle-like 8 pound sniper rifle that would be faster to aim down the sights than the 25 pound snipers, comparable to the 7.5 pound FAL?"

"Wow. Do we REALLY NEED the SCAR-H to be a 5 hit kill on the longest ranges?"

That, and the numbers that are NOT recoil are so uninspired.
And the abrupt damage decrease can be felt and it feels artificial.

[asasa]

TBH BO2 weapon balance is pretty good. Perk/Attachment balance.. not so much.

[-3055-]

I use fmj & grip on my mk48 class. It's called the no attachment class.

[adw1983]

Apr 3, 2013 5:53:14 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Each game has a two year development cycle. They don't have time for extensive testing.

Honestly it may be good from a sales standpoint for it to exist as a placebo. I mean of all the complaints I hear about cod, bo2 is the first one where technical issues are heard about more than game balance issues.

And to be completely honest weapon balance hardly means jack shit in the first place. There are competitive players who live by the Fal@grip. Hell, most bo1 weapons were exactly the same and most players had no fucking clue. I'd much rather they invest time in the technical issues rather than put extensive testing into weapon balance as a select few will ALWAYS come out on top with the subtlety of the differences between them.

I think weapon variety is important.

Weapon balance is a major part of weapon variety
Difference between weapons is another major part.

The weapon variety in CoD4 felt larger and better to me than any other CoD.
Simply because all the weapons could be used effectively, except R700 and perhaps Mini-Uzi.

[Usagi]

Apr 5, 2013 6:37:00 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Mw2 was the king, queen, and royal iguana of weapon balance.

[kirbyderby]

MW2 is best weapon balance pony.

[Usagi]

And yet no one on the internet will take your argument seriously because of OMA Tubes.

[markopolo]

Apr 5, 2013 10:26:53 GMT -5 Usagi said:

And yet no one on the internet will take your argument seriously because of OMA Tubes.

But that's an attachment issue.

If we're dealing strict, nekkid, weapon balance... MW2 was pretty good

[adw1983]

Apr 5, 2013 10:26:53 GMT -5 Usagi said:

And yet no one on the internet will take your argument seriously because of OMA Tubes.

This is so sad because it's true.

After my kids broke and scratched ALL of -- ALL OF my 360-games, I bought MW2 and Black Ops.

Unfortunately, I bought MW2 used and Black Ops downloadable.

I have a hole in my soul where MW2 should be, after my kids went rampaging again, ruining my MW2 and Black Ops 2 DVDs.

...

MW2 weapon balance was good.

...

Oh god.

I miss my FUNCTIONAL ACOG M21 and ACOG WAZOOO so much right now.
How much is MW2 right now???

[Brick2urface]

Like 10 bucks. Come back to mw2 where a 4 bar means a 4 bar and the shotguns don't shoot confetti.

[Usagi]

I really like these MW2 circlejerks we have.

[UrbaneVirtuoso]

Yup.

[adw1983]

Apr 5, 2013 6:37:00 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Lolcod4balance

Barret+m40acog beat all snipers, bar countersniping with dragunov
P90 was best smg
G36c was best ar, with maybe m16 on console as well.
M60 juggernaut gg
Shotguns sucked
Deagle was the only pistol

Mw2 was the king, queen, and royal iguana of weapon balance.

Assault rifles:
M16 > M14 = G3 = AK47 = M4 > G36C > STG44
M14 and G3 are underrated. G36 isn't special;
It's a hybrid between AK47 and M4 -- with no real upsides over either gun it bastardizes.
Lower rate of fire and higher recoil than M4.
1 more shot to kill and only a marginally lower recoil and a marginally higher ROF than AK47.

SMGs:
MP5=AK74u=P90>Mini-Uzi
MP5 has 800 RPM and kills in two hits.
P90 has 925 RPM and kills in three hits. I'll never understand why people used P90 -- except sprayers.
I did not mention skorpion, because it's a bit tricky to place: It is the most accurate SMG and is not at all useless on longer ranges where it 4 hit kills with stopping power.

LMGs
RPD Grip > RPD = M60 = M249 SAW
RPD outside the hallway in Broadcast in S&D == Win
M60 was not good on medium range or beyond.

Snipers:
SVD JGNT = M40 ACOG SP = Barret SP > M40 non-SP = SVD non-JGNT = M21 SP = R700 SP
My best game with SVD Juggernaut was 17-0 in search and destroy on Pipeline -- wiping 5 players on the enemy team twice as the last player as attacker two rounds in a row.
I also went 27-3 with Dragunov ACOG, also on Pipeline, in headquarters.

... I remember fondly how you actually could HELP YOUR TEAM with a sniper rifle in CoD4.
Because there were actually separate buildings that werent connected as if the maps were built with one long single piece of square brick-wire, with a shipload* of random clutter on it.

*Shipload.
Wow. I need to use this word more often!

Only the gods know what made IW buff the M40 ACOG instead of R700 ACOG.
And not fix the G3 silenced knife bug.
And not make AK47 and AK74u consistent.

=========================

In other news:
It would NOT take long to rebalance the grip.

It would take two people a maximum of two to three hours.
IF everything goes wrong and they need multiple reboots.

Making the SVU usable outside Touch Football would take 10 minutes.

But why do the developers NOT simply do this??

If I was a developer, I would not let stuff like this go unfixed when I could do it on the bus home or while sleeping one night
.