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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 10:36:11 GMT -5
If so, I have a quick question that involves statistics and how they relate to the investigation after Monday. From this article I read today........ www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/24/us-usa-explosions-boston-suspect-idUSBRE93N06720130424"Tsarnaev, 26, was killed in a police shootout early Friday, while his younger brother Dzhokhar, 19, was captured later that day. The sources said Tamerlan Tsarnaev's details were entered into TIDE, a database maintained by the National Counterterrorism Center, because the FBI spoke to him in 2011 while investigating a Russian tip-off that he had become a follower of radical Islamists.The FBI found nothing to suggest he was an active threat, but all the same placed his name on the "Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment" list. The FBI has not said what it did find about Tsarnaev.
But the database, which holds more than half a million names, is only a repository of information on people who U.S. authorities see as known, suspected or potential terrorists from around the world. Because of its huge size, U.S. investigators do not routinely monitor everyone registered there, said U.S. officials familiar with the database.
As of 2008, TIDE contained more than 540,000 names, although they represented about 450,000 actual people, because some of the entries are aliases or different name spellings for the same person. Fewer than 5 percent of the TIDE entries were U.S. citizens or legal residents, according to a description of the database on the NCTC website."Reading the above. From the above Government numbers, slightly less than 5% of the people listed on the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE) list are actual US citizens or residents. Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not a US Citizen, but he was a legal resident in the US. So he's one of the 5%. He also did have an open application sitting there waiting to become a US citizen. He applied in late 2012. So the question(s). By late Monday evening, hours after the bombing, shouldn't the FBI and other counter-terrorism US officials have first scanned the above TIDE list? Wouldn't that have been the first place to look for a potential suspect? Yes, it would have been. Look at the list and then see if there any people living in Boston who are on the above TIDE list. Seems like one wouldn't need Jim Rockford type of skills to figure out that one. Check to see if there were any people in Boston on the TIDE list. Maybe cross checked for those who have active applications waiting to be a US citizen? Or VISAs? Or residents who recently traveled? Or traveled to hot spots overseas? If only about 5% are US citizens or legal residents (which Tamerlan was), we would only probably be talking about checking some two hundred people in the Boston area. That's it. Fifty Government agents could knocked this off in only a few hours and had a solid list of probably twenty people to check into. Checking to see if they are still in Boston, what they have been up to, where they have been, traveled, etc...A quick check on Tamerlan, seeing he recently traveled to a hot spot of Terrorism in Russia, would have immediately red flagged him by anyone doing a check of this list. He would have been on a small list. Think about that. Then think back to Tuesday, and the Government having all those videos and pictures to sort through. That part is immense, but within hours, they would have easily had people in pics or videos spotted with backpacks. Plus we know they had the Lords/Taylor dept store camera shots, plus the video they showed, plus other pictures, of the two brothers. Just how long would it really take hundreds of Federal investigators to match up the TIDE list with the video/pictures? A day? Two days? Which begs this question. Why were Government officials asking the public for help in identifying the photos of two 'young men' at 5:15pm on Thursday? Acting confused and needing Joe Public to help catch these dangerous terrorists. Why? By Thursday morning, doing any bit of a TIDE check, with the information they had in hand, they would have EASILY known who Tamerlan was. The guy is on the TIDE, still a resident of Boston, had recently (openly) traveled to Chechnya, has pictures of himself on the internet (ID'ing himself), open Islamic rants online, plus was openly ID'd at the race, with a freaking backpack that supposedly matches the bomb backpack. And the US counter-Terrorism people were asking us for help at 5:15pm Thursday, to ID the suspects? Good lord, that stretches all levels of believability there. It's absurd. A ten high school kids with some CSI TV shows under their belts, would have solved this if they had the Govt resources. But yet our experts were stumped on Thursday afternoon? To quote Penn and Teller.....'"Bvlldoo-doo" Am I missing something here?
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Post by -3055- on Apr 24, 2013 11:26:05 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_biasGood news is that the mess is over. Personally I didn't give it much thought. I was, for the most part, indifferent to the whole ordeal. Sure, it was a tragedy, especially for those involved, but It didn't directly affect me in any way so I just it was just a passing news story at most for me.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Apr 24, 2013 13:45:26 GMT -5
Wouldnt surprise me if it were another false flag attack. We were a bit overdue. Gotta keep dem muslim terrorists on everyones minds.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 14:03:34 GMT -5
I fail to see how an issue of 'hindsight' can be at play here. Yeah, I know it seems very simple right now, after the fact, to say that Govt officials should have been able to piece it together, and that reality says different. But look at reality. The United States top counter-intelligence agencies were all on top of this case by Monday at 5pm. We had the FBI at work. Homeland Security. Definitely the higher ups at the DNI. We even had ex- SEAL private mercenaries working the area 20' from where the bomb went off. These are all groups that if they want, can read the writing on a candy bar wrapper six time zones away with their spy satellites. There is no "hindsight is 20/20" at play here. Simple detective work late Monday night, early Tuesday morning, would have easily pulled out all Boston metro area TIDE suspects. This is easy. And a small task force would have easily culled from that, a small group of active and suspicious people. Tamerlan, who was on the list, would have lit up like a neon sign. With the later pictures available at the crime scene, an hour of detective work would have then shown..."HOLY SH1T, THAT'S TAMERLAN STANDING IN THE CROWD." followed by..."WTF, TAMERLAN HAS A BACKBACK AND SOMEONE WITH HIM, HIS BROTHER? Done. This is a layup and thousands of the elite, best of the best counter-intelligence officials would have EASILY known this by Tuesday. There seems to be nothing to dispute here. But there we were last week, as late as 5:15pm Thursday, with Government officials asking us, Joe Public, to help identify the suspects. Why? It all seems like a silly fake show. But it what it was. We had the FBI asking us for help on Thursday, and then only a few hours later we have the two suspects making their getaway. Reportedly they were lounging around with friends in public places all week, relaxing, chilling, but then Thursday decide to make a run for it. And start that run by hijacking cars, shooting cops and robbing convenience stores. Wait a sec. Two guys supposedly smart enough to build a complex explosive device, smart enough to plot this out, get it by cops and other security people who were doing bomb drill tests at the race......suddenly weren't smart enough to just get away? They suddenly got 'dumb' and start their get-away by ID'ing themselves in a car-jacking and convenience store robbery? Good lord. If someone tried to pass this off as a Hollywood movie plot, the audience would shake their head and say it's ridiculously unbelievable and stupid.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 14:14:25 GMT -5
Wouldnt surprise me if it were another false flag attack. We were a bit overdue. Gotta keep dem muslim terrorists on everyones minds. ...or yet another FBI/Intelligence community sting operation simply gone off the rails yet again. It wouldn't be the first time. There are dozens of well documented (and admitted) past so -called terrorist attacks where it was later found out, that US officials were already working on the inside, on an undercover basis. Basically leading and prodding the dumb people along, to get them to do 'something'. Can't find any terrorist acts to bust? Help jump start some by luring radicals. Help them along, lead them to the goal line, and then let them do the act.....with the intent of busting them right before they do it. This has happened in the past. This seems to be the case here. At least to me, everything i read seems to point that way yet again.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Apr 24, 2013 14:31:00 GMT -5
Sure is tinfoil and retarded in here. You do realize there are places on the internet devoted to knuckle draggers just like you? boards.4chan.org/pol/Make this thread there and delete it from here. It will be much better received. You'll have a ready supply of moon landing denying flat-earther illiterate peasants, drinking their own piss to avoid fluoride in the water while they build their tinfoil monument to Ron Paul. You'll fit right in. Or maybe this post is a secret government false flag attack and my link actually installs illuminati spyware. You'll never know.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Apr 24, 2013 15:09:35 GMT -5
I think you have to be borderline retarded to be motivated enough to kill lots of people but only manage 4. I mean that is terrible in any country but in the land of full auto assault rifles and massively open borders you should be looking at a minimum of 25 if engaging a soft target like civilians.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Apr 24, 2013 15:22:24 GMT -5
I think you have to be borderline retarded to be motivated enough to kill lots of people but only manage 4. I mean that is terrible in any country but in the land of full auto assault rifles and massively open borders you should be looking at a minimum of 25 if engaging a soft target like civilians. Did you see those crowds? If the bombers could have had 200, easily. If every injury was a death they would have had more. As you say, in a land with much better equipment available, pressure cookers, nails and ball bearings do seem pretty underwhelming.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 15:33:54 GMT -5
Sure is tinfoil and retarded in here. You do realize there are places on the internet devoted to knuckle draggers just like you? boards.4chan.org/pol/And please do tell, what is tin foil'ish about asking why a half dozen agencies didn't cross check this stuff, before asking the public for help? That is what I posted. All these agencies had a list designed for this purpose (TIDE, plus others) and four days to check it, but it never occurred to them? What's so conspiratorial about asking this question? Or did you just never read what i wrote? Or by TinFoil'ish, you mean my comment that the Government has been chest deep in undercover sting operations with terrorist activities in the US? I cant' imagine that's what you mean, because that's all documented and real. Nothing tinfoil there, just reality. So please do explain. But I'm not holding my breath. The point of your post wasn't to peacefully discuss a topic, but just jump in with the name calling personal attacks. But then, I expected nothing else from someone like yourself. A pencil-necked p*ssy like yourself who talks sh1t on the internet, but can't back it up.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Apr 24, 2013 15:37:52 GMT -5
Do not look for conspiracy theories where plain old incompetence would cover it.
You know at work iw5k when someone asks for a cheeseburger but you give him a Big Mac? Yeah, it's like that but instead of you just asking for a cheeseburger again 4 people die,
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 15:44:06 GMT -5
Do not look for conspiracy theories where plain old incompetence would cover it. You know at work iw5k when someone asks for a cheeseburger but you give him a Big Mac? Yeah, it's like that but instead of you just asking for a cheeseburger again 4 people die, There was nothing conspiratorial in what i asked. The question was simple. How could multiple agencies simply fail to check a database that was made to hold information for things exactly like this? Not only fail to check it, but then days later, go on to ask the public for help.....when the suspects name was already sitting on there list. Maybe it is incompetence, but THAT much incompetence? Seems far fetched. And please note, I'm not advancing any other theories from that point. Like lizard people did it or Obama was in it, dumb sh1t like that. The point on the list was to discuss how it could be missed, and as I said at the end of the post, what I am missing? Does anyone else know more about TIDE? Read something else? Just discussing that, not space aliens.
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Post by Judge_St3vo on Apr 24, 2013 15:44:59 GMT -5
So, IW, you're complaining that it took 4 days to kill one suspect and capture the other?
Second, what are you gonna do, send SWAT teams to the door of every person on the TIDEs list in the Boston area?
These guys were armed and dangerous, you saw what happened when they were stopped by police Thursday night.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 24, 2013 15:51:03 GMT -5
So, IW, your complaining that it took 4 days to kill one suspect and capture the other? Where in my post am i complaining it took to long? WTF? I offered my thoughts on what seemed a bit ridiculous on the search 'process' (not complaining) and then asked some questions on it. Not the point of my post. The point was asking why go to the public when it seems like they already had the info. But to answer your question, why not? That's ultimately what they did anyways when hundreds upon hundreds of cops/SWAT/FBI teams went door to door, pulling people from hundreds of homes when searching for the younger brother. Would it have been any worse if we had sent teams to say 20 homes instead? Those residences of the 20 to 30 TIDE people in the Boston Metro area? That's what would have happened, if the two dumbazzes hadn't been dumb enough to rob a convenience store for $62, foolishly 'outing' themselves and making any search not needed. But if they hadn't done that, remained hidden, ultimately a showdown might have been needed. But that's speculation.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Apr 24, 2013 16:03:36 GMT -5
The government dashboarded their terror databases because they didn't want the hit to go down on their KD. Pretty simple.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Apr 24, 2013 16:05:38 GMT -5
So. Funny story.
I was just sitting with my laptop on a bench during some free time between classes. Nobody is around. Dude walks up to my bench and drops his backpack next to me while still standing.
He says "Hey, You heard about those Boston bombings?"
I said, "Yeah, it was a real tragedy" ...still looking at my pokemans.
He says, "You would have to be some kinda sick, twisted person to do that"
Then he gets all serious toned and says "Somebody just told me I look like one of the bombers." I take a look at him and he resembled Dzhokhar. Bro...I got chills. He pulls a banana out of the bag and starts eating it. He asks me if I like my college. I say that I do. He asks what year I'm in. I tell him 4th and I give him a schpeel about why I switched colleges to see his reaction. I ask what year he is in. He says 3rd. He says "Nice to meet you," picks up his bag, and walks away.
2nd most surreal moment of my life.
People are never that polite.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Apr 24, 2013 16:51:22 GMT -5
It took us ten fucking years to kill Bin Laden. They got these guys within a week. I'm calling that progress.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Apr 24, 2013 18:29:34 GMT -5
It took us ten fu cking years to kill Bin Laden. They got these guys within a week. I'm calling that progress. This was in our own turf, however. Bin Laden was half a world away. True
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 21:11:05 GMT -5
Pressure cookers are OP, needs a nerf
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Post by -3055- on Apr 24, 2013 22:08:55 GMT -5
*pressure cookers are UP. Leave them be, since they require little to no skill/effort
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Apr 24, 2013 22:30:36 GMT -5
Reading the above. From the above Government numbers, slightly less than 5% of the people listed on the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment (TIDE) list are actual US citizens or residents. Tamerlan Tsarnaev was not a US Citizen, but he was a legal resident in the US. So he's one of the 5%. He also did have an open application sitting there waiting to become a US citizen. He applied in late 2012. So the question(s). By late Monday evening, hours after the bombing, shouldn't the FBI and other counter-terrorism US officials have first scanned the above TIDE list? Wouldn't that have been the first place to look for a potential suspect? Yes, it would have been. Look at the list and then see if there any people living in Boston who are on the above TIDE list. Seems like one wouldn't need Jim Rockford type of skills to figure out that one. Check to see if there were any people in Boston on the TIDE list. Maybe cross checked for those who have active applications waiting to be a US citizen? Or VISAs? Or residents who recently traveled? Or traveled to hot spots overseas? If only about 5% are US citizens or legal residents (which Tamerlan was), we would only probably be talking about checking some two hundred people in the Boston area. That's it. Fifty Government agents could knocked this off in only a few hours and had a solid list of probably twenty people to check into. Checking to see if they are still in Boston, what they have been up to, where they have been, traveled, etc...A quick check on Tamerlan, seeing he recently traveled to a hot spot of Terrorism in Russia, would have immediately red flagged him by anyone doing a check of this list. He would have been on a small list. Think about that. Then think back to Tuesday, and the Government having all those videos and pictures to sort through. That part is immense, but within hours, they would have easily had people in pics or videos spotted with backpacks. Plus we know they had the Lords/Taylor dept store camera shots, plus the video they showed, plus other pictures, of the two brothers. Just how long would it really take hundreds of Federal investigators to match up the TIDE list with the video/pictures? A day? Two days? Which begs this question. Why were Government officials asking the public for help in identifying the photos of two 'young men' at 5:15pm on Thursday? Acting confused and needing Joe Public to help catch these dangerous terrorists. First, a correction to your post. It has been reported that Dzhokar (sp) became a US citizen on 9/11/2011 (the media cites this as a weird coincidence). So yes, he is a current US citizen which is why he should't and lawfully can't be treated as an enemy combatant which many on the right pushed for. Second, there was no initial information as to whether the suspect(s) was domestic or foreign. Going to that TIDE list speaks towards profiling. This is why the FBI asked for the publics pictures so they could image match exactly who these people were. In this age of social media, the mass population has tremendous power and it is our duty to be socially responsible for the common good. I remember reading through the comments section on the live feed on CNN and some of the information was ridiculous. A rumor got started that the suspect was an Indian who went missing a couple months ago. This is where the true hate from people came out with such vile derogatory comments. This is why using that TIDE list to profile is not rational as it leads to increased profiling. The cops/FBI had it right when they researched the case and made sure not to say whether the suspect was foreign or domestic until they truly had the facts. My respects to the families and friends that have been impacted by this tragedy. May the victims rest in peace.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Apr 24, 2013 22:36:32 GMT -5
It took us ten fu cking years to kill Bin Laden. They got these guys within a week. I'm calling that progress. This was in our own turf, however. Bin Laden was half a world away. lol @ "we got bin laden" jeebus, do people just take everything the gov't says as the truth? i thought people woke up.. you know, 12 years ago?
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Post by -3055- on Apr 24, 2013 23:09:38 GMT -5
For all I know, there's a possibility other planets don't exist. Fuck it, I've never seen them so there's no internally empirical way of knowing.
But I just choose to accept some things as fact, because life is just easier that way.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Apr 25, 2013 2:28:08 GMT -5
….. A ten high school kids with some CSI TV shows under their belts, would have solved this if they had the Govt resources. But yet our experts were stumped on Thursday afternoon? To quote Penn and Teller.....'"Bvlldoo-doo" Am I missing something here? Police and other forces work strictly in line with procedures, especially army fights looking at manuals. Last time our police “thought” I saw an innocent guy (~18Y) killed in his car, as police “thought” he was the suspect, probably armed, they acted quickly during the night and to them: everything seemed to “fit”. Double, triple checking is required and I prefer police working with care and patiently, especially before opening fire. There might be errors in databases….
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 25, 2013 6:48:25 GMT -5
First, a correction to your post. It has been reported that Dzhokar (sp) became a US citizen on 9/11/2011 (the media cites this as a weird coincidence). So yes, he is a current US citizen which is why he should't and lawfully can't be treated as an enemy combatant which many on the right pushed for. I think you might be confusing the two brothers. My questions in my first post were dealing with Tamerlan Tsarnaev, not his younger brother Dzhokhar. To recap. Both brothers came over with the Tsarnaev family in 2002 I think. They came from Dagestan Russia, and once in the US, applied for political asylum. In March of 2007, the family was given legal resident status in the US. As you said up above, on 9/11/2011, the younger brother Dzhokhar (17 at the time), his application for US Citizenship was approved. The older brother Tamerlan, as of 2013, he was still waiting on his US Citizenship application. It had NOT yet been approved. He had filed it in late 2012. Please read this link from the LATimes. www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-citizenship-ice-boston-20130421,0,154058.story So that cleared up, let me contitinue with the timeline. My post was about Tamerlan Tsarnaev......not Dzhokhar. Tamerlan was born in 1985 and came to the US with his family in 2002 at age 17. He applied to UMass in '06 but was turned down. He attended community college from '06 o '08, but dropped out for his boxing pursuits. The above LATimes article discussed this. Sometime in 2009 he started to become radicalized with Islam. It is being reported he started attending a local Boston Mosque and talking to people. He dropped his boxing pursuits and stopped working. That brings us to 2011. Whatever Tamerlan was doing at this Boston Mosque, it raised the suspicions of the Russians FSB. The FSB contacted the CIA because of Tamerlan's activities in the Boston mosque, and this info indicated he might be making plans to come back to Russia. They wanted to know more about him. This right here should have been a big red flag. The CIA did look into matters, but told the Russians they had nothing. That's a bit weird, but ok. The above action, alert, did put Tamerlan on the TIDE list even though they cleared him. Also, the CIA asked the National Counterterrorism Center (NCC) the nation’s main counterterrorism agency, to add Tamerlan to their watch list as a precaution too. Other agencies, including the State Department, the Homeland Security Department and the F.B.I., were alerted too. So all in all, in late 2011, Tamerlan is now residing on not one, but FOUR US Intelligence agency watchlists. Not only on a list, but one of them, the FBI, actually called and dug around a bit with his family and such. They then added Tamerlan's name to a fifth list. To quote a NY Times article...... "In closing out its report, the F.B.I.’s field office in Boston added Mr. Tsarnaev’s name to a second watch list, the Treasury Enforcement Communications System, or TECS, which was set up to send an electronic message to customs officials whenever Mr. Tsarnaev left the country."www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/us/tamerlan-tsarnaev-bomb-suspect-was-on-watch-lists.html?_r=0Here we go. January of 2012. The Russians were right about Tamerlan's desires to travel. Tamerlan did indeed travel to Russia in January 2012. During the six months he was there, he visited the North Caucasus, including Dagestan (his old home area) and Chechnya. Chechnya as we all know from the news, is an area of extremist Islamic ideology, and a "hotbed" of militant Islamic activity. Yet another red flag. The third one. This should have sent alerts up and down the US Intelligence community, on all five of the lists Tamerlan resided on. So the point of my post. While Janet Napolitano has made the excuse that a spelling error is 'why' Tamerlan's name didn't send off alerts on the TIDE system, that doesn't excuse the other four agencies, nor the TECS system either. Furthermore, disregarding the fact Tamerlan slipped overseas to a hotbed of Islamic Terrorist activity WHILE on five US group databases, an egregious also comical error if there ever was one...... ....that is still no excuse for WHY his name wouldn't have popped up front and center Monday afternoon when scanning databases for possible suspects after the bombing. Going into TIDE and other databases is NOT profiling. Agencies like the CIA, FBI, HS, and others are allowed to access this for searching purposes. And when you have a terrorist act on a Monday afternoon, during the freaking Boston Marathon, you need suspects, it's common sense, detective work 101 to scan all these lists for possible suspects living in the Boston Metro area. Tamerlan's name would have been on ALL those lists. We are only talking probably 30 or so names in that area. Jesus, the FBI knew all about him as they went and talked to his family members in 2011, only two years prior. They freaking knew where he lived and his family for christ's sake. And we are supposed to believe four days after the bombing, it never occurred to the all the US intelligence agencies to maybe check these lists and go look into, investigate, the HUGE red flag known as Tamerlan who was living only a few miles from the bombing? Not only go check, but while they were standing around, they ALSO had pictures of who probably did it? THINK. The FBI and other groups had a picture of the suspect probably Tuesday morning and his name with multiple red flags sitting in a database.....and they couldn't link that up for three days? Good lord. They had been to Tamerlan's house in 2011. Opening one file would have matched up that visit with the pictures they had. But yet, we are supposed to believe all these intelligence agencies were standing around all stupid like late Thursday asking the public to ID the two guys in a picture? I have a VERY hard time believing the above. That's absurd. edit * - note. The above doesn't mean I believe space aliens did this or Barak Obama was 'in' on it. As far as tin foil conspiracies go, there probably aren't any. The above very suspicious cover-up might simply be Government officials trying to hide their past errors, and not wanting the public to know that the guy who ultimately killed people, was ALREADY sitting on five intelligence watchlists and slipped by thousands of federal officers. A cover-up of mistakes. Or, as I also said earlier, this situation might simply be a case that the reason the FBI and others supposedly ignored Tamerlan was due to the fact they hadn't. They knew about him, as he was already working with undercover US officials in some capacity, in a sting operation. This is why the CIA wouldn't share info with the Russian FSB. The CIA and FBI were egging, leading Tamerlan along a path of duplicity. This would explain Tamerlan's mother's claims of constant Government involvement with her son the past few years. Nothing tin foil there. Just asking people to open their eyes and think a bit.
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Erik
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Post by Erik on Apr 25, 2013 7:37:43 GMT -5
Nothing tin foil there. Just asking people to open their eyes and think a bit. Aye, but is this the appropriate venue to be discussing it? As the Multiposter (Mousey) said, there is an off-topic portion of this board. The Call of Duty board is where the crow-feeders and stat-seekers lie; it should not be home to investigations of skullduggery.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 25, 2013 8:51:02 GMT -5
Nothing tin foil there. Just asking people to open their eyes and think a bit. Aye, but is this the appropriate venue to be discussing it? As the Multiposter (Mousey) said, there is an off-topic portion of this board. The Call of Duty board is where the crow-feeders and stat-seekers lie; it should not be home to investigations of skullduggery. That's why I asked in my post as to where to put this thread. And where this other 'off topic' board is, I did look and wasn't sure. There are nine other sections on this website, and after glancing at them, they all seem to contain specific topics relating to games (Halo, BF3, Planetside, etc..) The closest I could find was the ' what' board, and looking in it, it also seems to be all game related threads inside of it too. If this to heavy, deep, to political for this particular board, then by all means I'll discontinue. I just had nothing to do discuss this week that was BO2 related.
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Post by Erik on Apr 25, 2013 8:56:59 GMT -5
And the "What" board would be more appropriate. Very few of the topics actually have to do with game topics, and since this has nothing to do with Call of Duty, it would be more appropriate for this topic to reside there. Alas, I fear it is too late for that unless the Moderator will move it there. There is nothing wrong with "too" heavy or "too" political subjects; however, in the future, it would be kind merely to consider starting such a non-Call of Duty topic elsewhere.
Also, you may want to change bombins to bombings.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 25, 2013 9:13:27 GMT -5
I remember reading through the comments section on the live feed on CNN and some of the information was ridiculous. A rumor got started that the suspect was an Indian who went missing a couple months ago. This is where the true hate from people came out with such vile derogatory comments. This is why using that TIDE list to profile is not rational as it leads to increased profiling. The cops/FBI had it right when they researched the case and made sure not to say whether the suspect was foreign or domestic until they truly had the facts. I think you are mixing up issues here laxman.What you are referring to is an Indian student at Brown University named Sunil Tripathi. He was an American citizen I believe. He took a leave from school, and then went missing on March 16th. He simply went off the grid. Disappeared. This has been in the news up there. What happened wasn't a racist issue, but simply people using the 'Redit' sight, trying to be amateur detectives, simply reposted info that linked the missing person (Sunil) with the pictures from the bombing. What do you want, when amateur detectives get involved? Redit's site formally apologized for allowing this stuff to be posted. Interestingly enough, a body recently emerged from a lake near Providence, and as of a few days ago, authorities said it might be Sunil. Anyways, you are confusing issues. The above ugly misnaming occurred due to the general public trying to help, playing detectives, and doing it in a very unprofessional manner. But that's what you get, when you ask the public to help. Which ties into my main point, why the hell were the FBI asking the public for help last Thursday at 5:10pm, when by all accounts, they already knew Tameran did it. So this had nothing to do with TIDE lists, just Redit message boards. The TIDE lists are not profiling or racist. They are just one of many lists the various Government intelligence agencies use to quickly pinpoint and track suspects criminals and terrorists. The reasons for these lists are so that people like Tameran can be tracked quickly on the grid. Which he would have been, quite easily, in as little as a few hours after the bombing. Keep in mind, the FBI already had files on Tameran, knew him and his family during meetings in 2011. Are we to believe the Boston area FBI case officials, who handled that file 19 months ago, never even thought to look at that Tameran's file when trying to think who planted the bombs? That's ridiculous. That would have been amongst the first places any field officer would have looked hours after the bombing....."Who lives in the area who is on our watch lists" Duh.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 25, 2013 9:15:19 GMT -5
First, a correction to your post. It has been reported that Dzhokar (sp) became a US citizen on 9/11/2011 (the media cites this as a weird coincidence). So yes, he is a current US citizen which is why he should't and lawfully can't be treated as an enemy combatant which many on the right pushed for. Laxman, I think you might be confusing things up here again, as to who the two brothers are. My questions in my first post were dealing with Tamerlan Tsarnaev, not his younger brother Dzhokhar. To recap. Both brothers came over with the Tsarnaev family in 2002 I think. They came from Dagestan Russia, and once in the US, applied for political asylum. In March of 2007, the family was given legal resident status in the US. As you said up above, on 9/11/2011, the younger brother Dzhokhar (17 at the time), his application for US Citizenship was approved. The older brother Tamerlan, as of 2013, he was still waiting on his US Citizenship application. It had NOT yet been approved. He had filed it in late 2012. Please read this link from the LATimes. www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-citizenship-ice-boston-20130421,0,154058.story So that cleared up, let me contitinue with the timeline. My post was about Tamerlan Tsarnaev......not Dzhokhar. Tamerlan was born in 1985 and came to the US with his family in 2002 at age 17. He applied to UMass in '06 but was turned down. He attended community college from '06 o '08, but dropped out for his boxing pursuits. The above LATimes article discussed this. Sometime in 2009 he started to become radicalized with Islam. It is being reported he started attending a local Boston Mosque and talking to people. He dropped his boxing pursuits and stopped working. That brings us to 2011. Whatever Tamerlan was doing at this Boston Mosque from 2009 to 2010, it raised the suspicions of the Russian FSB. The Russian FSB contacted the CIA because of Tamerlan's activities in the Boston mosque, what was felt as terrorist activities. They also had info indicating Tamerlan might be making plans to come back to Russia, which also worried them. So they reached out to the CIA in 2011. This right here should have been a big red flag when Russian intelligence is doing work on people living in your country. The CIA did look into matters, but oddly enough, told the Russians they had nothing. They found nothing. Ok, i guess we are supposed to buy that. The above Russian alerts did set off a chain of events though. The inquiry forced the CIA to place Tamerlan on the TIDE list (even though they cleared him) And this move made the CIA now include the National Counterterrorism Center (NCC), the nation’s main counterterrorism agency, to add Tamerlan to their watch list as a precaution too. Then other agencies, including the State Department, the Homeland Security Department and the F.B.I., were also alerted. So all in all, in late 2011, Tamerlan was now placed on not one, but FOUR US Intelligence agency watch lists. And then, to add icing on the cake, the FBI got more involved and actually investigated further. They snooped around and interviewed family and friends. They then added Tamerlan's name to a fifth list. To quote a NY Times article...... "In closing out its report, the F.B.I.’s field office in Boston added Mr. Tsarnaev’s name to a second watch list, the Treasury Enforcement Communications System, or TECS, which was set up to send an electronic message to customs officials whenever Mr. Tsarnaev left the country."www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/us/tamerlan-tsarnaev-bomb-suspect-was-on-watch-lists.html?_r=0So take all the above in, and then move forward to January of 2012. The Russians were right about Tamerlan's desires to travel. Tamerlan did indeed travel to Russia in January 2012. During the six months he was there, he visited the North Caucasus, including Dagestan (his old home area) and Chechnya. Chechnya as we all know from the news, is an area of extremist Islamic ideology, and a "hotbed" of militant Islamic activity. Yet another red flag, the third one. This should have sent blazing alerts up and down the US Intelligence community, on all five of the lists Tamerlan resided on. Did it? How could it not? But we only have one official response on that so far. Janet Napolitano made the excuse that a spelling error is 'why' Tamerlan's name didn't send off alerts on the TIDE system at least. The other lists? No comment. But ask this question. Disregarding the fact Tamerlan slipped overseas to a hotbed of Islamic Terrorist activity WHILE on five US group databases (and then came back without a single peep from any agency) an egregious comical error if there ever was one........that is still no excuse for WHY his name wouldn't have popped up front and center Monday afternoon when scanning databases for possible suspects after the bombing. Yeah. Maybe the alerts didnt' go off last year, but Monday afternoon we had THOUSANDS of Intelligence agents combing over suspects and info. Multiple agencies, all these agents scanning over these lists for suspects in the Boston area. Detective work 101. Looking into TIDE, TECS and even old files from 2011 of people they had interviewed. There is no way on planet earth they wouldn't have seen Tameran's name pop up. It was on five lists as a possible Russian terrorist, fingered by the Russian FSB. Duh. And we aren't talking thousands of names, probably only 30 to 100. A dozen workers would have knocked that off in hours Monday night. And again, the FBI already had a file on Tameran, they had been visiting him in 2011. They freaking knew where he lived and his family for christ's sake. So we are supposed to believe four days after the bombing, Thursday afternoon......THOUSANDS of intelligence officials were sitting at their desks completely unaware of the obvious up there? Tameran. Setting aside the impossibility of them being that stupid, by Tuesday afternoon they also had the pictures of Tameran. Good lord. It's almost impossible the case workers from the 2011 wouldn't have noticed the similarity between their 18 month old case file and that photo. Isn't that their job? No way they miss that. They had been to Tamerlan's house in 2011. But yet, we are supposed to believe all these intelligence agencies were standing around all stupid like late Thursday at 5:15pm asking the public to ID the two guys in a picture. BS. I have a VERY hard time believing the above. That's absurd. edit * - note. The above doesn't mean I believe space aliens did this or Barak Obama was 'in' on it. As far as tin foil conspiracies go, there probably aren't any. The above very suspicious cover-up might simply be Government officials trying to hide their past errors, and not wanting the public to know that the guy who ultimately killed people, was ALREADY sitting on five intelligence watchlists and slipped by thousands of federal officers. A cover-up of mistakes. Or, as I also said earlier, this situation might simply be a case that the reason the FBI and others supposedly ignored Tamerlan was due to the fact they hadn't. They knew about him, as he was already working with undercover US officials in some capacity, in a sting operation. This is why the CIA wouldn't share info with the Russian FSB. The CIA and FBI were egging, leading Tamerlan along a path of duplicity. This would explain Tamerlan's mother's claims of constant Government involvement with her son the past few years. Nothing tin foil there. Just asking people to open their eyes and think a bit.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 25, 2013 9:46:18 GMT -5
I'm not some tin foil nut. PLENTY of other people are now squawking about these inconsistencies. www.nytimes.com/2013/04/25/us/tamerlan-tsarnaev-bomb-suspect-was-on-watch-lists.html?hp&_r=2&2 U.S. Agencies Added Boston Bomb Suspect to Watch ListsBy ERIC SCHMITT and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT Published: April 24, 2013 WASHINGTON — Despite being told in 2011 that an F.B.I. review had found that a man who went on to become one of the suspects in the Boston Marathon bombings had no ties to extremists, the Russian government asked the Central Intelligence Agency six months later for whatever information it had on him, American officials said Wednesday. After its review, the C.I.A. also told the Russian intelligence service that it had no suspicious information on the man, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was killed in a shootout with the police early last Friday. It is not clear what prompted the Russians to make the request of the C.I.A.The upshot of the American inquiries into Mr. Tsarnaev’s background was that even though he was found to have no connections to extremist groups, his name was entered into two different United States government watch lists in late 2011 that were designed to alert the authorities if he traveled overseas. The picture emerging Wednesday was of a counterterrorism bureaucracy that had at least four contacts with Russian spy services about Mr. Tsarnaev in the year before he took a six-month trip to Russia in 2012, but never found reason to investigate him further after he returned, or at any time before last week’s attacks in Boston that killed 3 people and injured more than 260.Lawmakers this week criticized federal officials for failing to share investigative leads in the months leading up to the attack, and the new disclosures are likely to increase Congressional scrutiny of why the authorities did not pay more attention to an overseas visit that may have helped radicalize Mr. Tsarnaev. After the C.I.A. cleared him of any ties to violent extremism in October 2011, it asked the National Counterterrorism Center, the nation’s main counterterrorism agency, to add his name to a watch list as a precaution, an American intelligence official said Wednesday. Other agencies, including the State Department, the Homeland Security Department and the F.B.I., were alerted. That database, the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, or TIDE, contains about 700,000 names. It is the main repository from which other government watch lists are drawn, including the F.B.I.’s Terrorist Screening Database and the Transportation Security Administration’s “no fly” list. The information conveyed to the watch list included a transliteration from Cyrillic of Mr. Tsarnaev’s name — “Tamerlan Tsarnayev” — two dates of birth (both incorrect, officials said), and one possible variant spelling of his name. The first Russian request came in March 2011 through the F.B.I.’s office in the United States Embassy in Moscow. The one-page request said Mr. Tsarnaev “had changed drastically since 2010” and was preparing to travel to a part of Russia “to join unspecified underground groups.” In response, counterterrorism agents in the F.B.I.’s field office in Boston, near where Mr. Tsarnaev was living, began a review to determine whether he had extremist tendencies or ties to terrorist groups. The review included examining criminal databases and conducting interviews with Mr. Tsarnaev and his family. The agents concluded by June 2011 that they could not find any connections to extremists, and in August the results of the assessment were provided to the Russians, according to the United States official. At the time, F.B.I. agents requested additional information on Mr. Tsarnaev and asked to be informed of any further developments. In closing out its report, the F.B.I.’s field office in Boston added Mr. Tsarnaev’s name to a second watch list, the Treasury Enforcement Communications System, or TECS, which was set up to send an electronic message to customs officials whenever Mr. Tsarnaev left the country. Shortly thereafter, the F.B.I. repeated its request to the Russians for more information. The Russians, however, did not respond with anything new. But a month later, the Russians sent the C.I.A. the same request for information on Mr. Tsarnaev that they had sent the F.B.I. That request prompted the C.I.A. to review its databases for information on Mr. Tsarnaev, but the agency came to a similar conclusion as the F.B.I. Around that time, the F.B.I. learned of the request to the C.I.A. and for the second time since providing its findings to the Russians in June, it went back and asked them for additional information on Mr. Tsarnaev, according to the official.The official said the Russians never provided any additional information on Mr. Tsarnaev until after he was killed as he and his brother, Dzhokhar, tried to evade police officers who were chasing them in Watertown, Mass. When Tamerlan Tsarnaev left the country on Jan. 12, 2012, for a six-month trip to Dagestan and Chechnya, predominantly Muslim republics in the North Caucasus region of Russia, his flight reservation set off a security alert to customs authorities, the homeland security secretary, Janet Napolitano, told a Senate committee on Tuesday. But Mr. Tsarnaev’s departure apparently did not set off a similar alert on the TIDE watch list because the spelling variants of his name and the birth dates entered into the system — exactly how the Russian government had provided the data months earlier — were different enough from the correct information to prevent an alert, a United States official said. When Mr. Tsarnaev returned in July, the travel alert “was more than a year old and had expired,” Ms. Napolitano said. The new details about the investigation and the coordination between American intelligence emerged as the deputy F.B.I. director, Sean Joyce, and other top counterterrorism officials briefed lawmakers for a second day Wednesday. But members of the House Intelligence Committee left closed briefings on Capitol Hill with many unanswered questions about what or who radicalized the suspects.
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