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Post by iw5000 on Sept 3, 2013 10:44:19 GMT -5
In mw2 there seemed to be a longer delay getting your pistol out then in BO1's version, and therefore the invulnerability was largely irrelevant. Maybe marvel can give us the exact times if he stops by. I'm not saying I want last stand back but I didn't have a problem with it. Commando and ninja were much more useful then last stand. I guess bowling though said last stand and not second chance because second chance is 3arc's and he would be mocking them if he said that. Hmm, if all perks had great opportunity costs, people would have less of a grounds to complain about them. That being said, I was actually that guy in BO1 who used Second Chance and I wrecked with it. Sniping people across the map with my M14 grip when all of the sudden people pop out in front and I go down hard pumping M1911 rounds into them? Yes please, sometimes I even finished off the sniper like that, in fact, quite often. I almost never saw anyone else use it, ever. Oh, and I was under the impression that they reduced the invincibility time from MW2's Last Stand to BO1's Second Chance. Still a cheap perk and shouldn't be in the game. I would also add this. I never saw any real benefit to that perk. It might come in handy what? Two to three times a game? Compare that to TacMask+pro, allowing you to fend off gas, flashes and stuns. This would easily come in handy five or more times a game. And even Marathon Pro. Unlimited spring was something you could use all game long.
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Post by jaedrik on Sept 3, 2013 10:55:33 GMT -5
Nope. Draw time doesn't matter. Invulnerability frames do. That extra time wastes your ammo and your time; it's not as much about him killing you (he rarely will). His teammates are another story, and you're still dumping extra ammo and not playing the objective while you wait for some autistic sperglord to finish losing the gunfight he lost ages ago (in CoD time). We're talking doubling or more the ttk in some situations. It's pants on head retarded. Not good, absolutely not even close to the same power level as Ninja, just retarded. Last Stand was bullshit in CoD4 and MW2 but no one used it so it wasn't really a problem. Methinks you're all just anally buttfrustrated. And killing is an objective, and who says I can't take out 7 people while keeping the Dom flag point from being capped while in Second Chance and then stopping my foes with a blackbird because of it? (which I have.) You accusations that Last Chance was bullshit are noted, but unfounded, in MW2 and BO1 it was massive opportunity cost (I have no idea about CoD4lol), and the fact that you couldn't cycle streaks, and the fact that you couldn't be revived. Oh, don't forget that if the person knows he's wasting time in Second Chance or Last Stand, they can always hold x and die. No time wasted, back in the fight, shabam shabam shaka laka. In fact, I am still under the impression that they reduced the invincibility frames significantly in BO1 (which also had excellent opportunity cost btw), and like I said, I still saw no one doing it besides me. Also, following someone with your weapon when they go down is just like following an enemy when they jumpshot or dropshot or in Ghost's case, slideshot, easy peasy, I never had problems with people dropshotting, in fact, I thought it was easier, they're practically immobilizing themselves. Overall, Second Chance had this odd learning curve for me, I couldn't it jack with my pistol the first few times, but then I just started turning on fools and whipping it out as they down me and hitting them with 5 shots straight, then I'd get revived by my teammate that's right next to me, or if they're across the map I just hold X.
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Post by jaedrik on Sept 3, 2013 10:59:35 GMT -5
Still a cheap perk and shouldn't be in the game. I would also add this. I never saw any real benefit to that perk. It might come in handy what? Two to three times a game? Compare that to TacMask+pro, allowing you to fend off gas, flashes and stuns. This would easily come in handy five or more times a game. And even Marathon Pro. Unlimited spring was something you could use all game long. If it's cheap, then by the same token Ninja and Hacker are also cheap, because, being able to sneak up on me and ensure a kill because I couldn't hear you? Yeah, that's cheap as hell. Being able to see my claymores planted all over? That's cheap as hell! I really think the type of benefit is why people view it as bull, it gives you an advantage to direct confrontation, much like TacMask or Juggernoob, but it's not so vast that it is the only perk to choose. And take it from me, the guy who used it on his M16/14 class, it was useful ALL the time. I can't count the amount of times I've gotten streaks for my team when downed because they just keep running into my bullets, and adding in the amount of kills I get and streaks I go on after I get up? No, it is actually quite powerful when the right person uses it, yet not imbalanced. Edit: You know, this is pretty derailing to the topic. I wonder how easy Juggernoob would be to attain with Second Chance. 2ez Edit: Second Chance raises the skill ceiling. Come at me.
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Post by iw5000 on Sept 3, 2013 12:55:41 GMT -5
The topic was about Ghost's killstreaks. Talking about past ones, how they might apply to Ghost, isn't exactly derailing. And with that, there's like five people on this board now. Not that big of a deal.
The rest of what you said. I'll argue for the sake of arguing here. Last Stand/Second chance is an entirely different level of 'cheap' over and above all the other cheap perks/attachments. Why? Because it bypasses the finality of video game death, which is the main goal of CoD. Shoot (and kill) the other game person. In an one & done game, if i kill you, I win. You died and are dead. The perk is allowing you to cheat that. Every other perk/attachment is just aiding the process of getting a kill. So it's different, less cheap. Hear a little better, see a little better, radar a little better, etc...
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Post by jaedrik on Sept 3, 2013 13:29:09 GMT -5
The topic was about Ghost's killstreaks. Talking about past ones, how they might apply to Ghost, isn't exactly derailing. And with that, there's like five people on this board now. Not that big of a deal. The rest of what you said. I'll argue for the sake of arguing here. Last Stand/Second chance is an entirely different level of 'cheap' over and above all the other cheap perks/attachments. Why? Because it bypasses the finality of video game death, which is the main goal of CoD. Shoot (and kill) the other game person. In an one & done game, if i kill you, I win. You died and are dead. The perk is allowing you to cheat that. Every other perk/attachment is just aiding the process of getting a kill. So it's different, less cheap. Hear a little better, see a little better, radar a little better, etc... Perks =/= killstreaks, and I'm thankful it's not that big of a deal :3 Tacmask is just as cheap, then, because they're bypassing the finality of being stunned, or being flashed, and throwing one of those is certainly much, much harder than pulling a trigger, killing is too easy anyways, and tacmask assists players in cheating a hindrance towards their demise. Hacker is also cheap, they're bypassing the finality of their death by my claymore, they are cheating explosive death. Heck, they're even moreso moving out of the way of my C4, it took skill to throw that but also skill to dodge it, same thing with Second Chance, it took skill for them to take me down, but it'll take skill to get me back up. Now, Stopping Power is also cheap, then, because it bypasses the set amount of health that players have, and gives an advantage to direct combat. Ninja is super ultra cheap, because it allows them to bypass my hearing, which I would have undoubtedly used for their demise. If we propose Second Chance is cheap, then, we must also say Flak Jacket is cheap (I mean, c'mon, the 1 extra bullet is nothing compared to two or three more grenades)! I suppose now we must also remove claymores staying while they're looking at the killcam, because they cheat the finality of someone dying and their claymores disappearing. No, the distinction between the 'main goal' of CoD and its auxiliary goal and the other methods used to achieve them is a visceral and emotion-filled one, a distinction which I deny. Oh, also don't forget that shotguns, headshots, explosives, and knifes all bypass Second Chance's effect, I mean, the 'main goal' is killing after all, not killing with bullets to the body only. It is easy to accept because the effects of their perk are so much more visible to the bystander, but I hold a different standard, all perks assist, directly or indirectly, the success of the individual, and I would petition that just because something is more apparent doesn't mean it's cheaper, which is what I am accusing that judgement and distinction against Second Chance of. Every perk and attachment can aid the process of getting a kill, but many hinder the process of the enemy getting a kill, a primary function therefore is to prevent your enemy from killing you in one way or another. The only thing that warrants it being "cheap" is that it compensates for poor play while not offering much to good players. Nah, mang, it takes skill to shoot someone with a pistol while immobile, and skill for them to shoot me one more time, wut wut? It certainly offered a lot to me. Besides, what is 'poor play'? I'm playing to the advantages of Second Chance, aren't I? And I'm succeeding at it. Besides, I did well with other classes too, gosh, I'm not purposely trying to put myself at a disadvantage, I don't run around thinking Second Chance will save me from getting downed.
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Post by iw5000 on Sept 3, 2013 13:48:19 GMT -5
Being stunned, seen, exposed....these all fall BEFORE the finality of dying. I can be flashed, spotted, grenaded, VSAT'd, fragged, and not die. But when I die, I am dead. It's over. Finality. Second chance works around that.
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Post by jaedrik on Sept 3, 2013 14:12:26 GMT -5
Being stunned, seen, exposed....these all fall BEFORE the finality of dying. I can be flashed, spotted, grenaded, VSAT'd, fragged, and not die. But when I die, I am dead. It's over. Finality. Second chance works around that. If I can be flashed, spotted, grenaded, VSAT'd, or Fragged, then why not add being shot into that? I can be shot and not die. Or is the problem with activation time? Again, the finality of being chunked by a grenade or rocket is tantamount to being shot, Flak Jacket works around that.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 3, 2013 17:40:42 GMT -5
You're completely wrong about virtually everything (you also ignore the main point, which is the time wasted. Not the guy with the perk, the guy shooting him). Go read my post about variance in the Honey Badger thread. A perk that can randomly triple the amount of time needed to kill someone, with no visually distinguishable warning or even jug/painkiller style hit confirmation, is a problem. That's the problem with invulnerability frames. Add lag to the equation and the problem is compounded; the time between when you start shooting a guy and when he's dead can easily get long enough for his teammate to kill you when he otherwise could not. In coordinated team games it functions like undetectable super juggernaut. This raises the skill ceiling in much the same way as the Vatican punishes child rapists (not at all, in other words. Not even close. The opposite, actually).
Total bullshit.
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Post by Morshu on Sept 3, 2013 19:31:48 GMT -5
Regardless of whether you think invulnerability frames are BS, its hard to argue that last stand was OP in cod4/mw2. I never even heard anyone complain about it until BO1's second chance. Your really going to say last stand was up there in terms of use with commando or ninja? Or even steady aim? (remember G18 akimbo) It may have been annoying in some situations, I'll give you that, but it wasn't OP if that's what you are arguing. (not saying you are)
Oh and plus mw2 was a tube game and tubes canceled out last stand. If you want to see something that is cheap by mousey's definition, see cod4 martyrdom.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Sept 3, 2013 19:54:28 GMT -5
How I miss martyrdom.
Lobbies full of people not using the Dead Silence perk; those where the days....
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 3, 2013 19:54:52 GMT -5
It's definitely not OP, I said as much. Ninja is by far the best perk 3 in MW2, no other perk even comes close. Commando is trash, Scrambler is lol, Sitrep is worse than ninja 90% of the time, Steady Aim doesn't even give you the SprintOut bonus like in other games. If you're not using ninja your ass is grass the second someone in the lobby starts trying. "Bullshit" and "too powerful" have never been the same thing. Martyrdom in CoD4 is indeed bullshit, though slightly less than Last Stand because you at least get a grenade indicator and audio cue.
MW2 is only a tube game GW dom. In any of the fun modes (team tac) it's not that good.
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Post by Morshu on Sept 3, 2013 20:07:19 GMT -5
Thus why I ended my statement with "if that's what you are arguing." I just don't have a problem with a perk that isn't OP and hardly gets used half the time. (tubes, knives, killstreaks)
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 3, 2013 21:00:17 GMT -5
I'd rather have OP than bullshit
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Post by Morshu on Sept 3, 2013 21:34:24 GMT -5
It wasn't that bad bro. Honestly, unless your using a shotgun or sniper, if you got killed by last stand in mw2 you deserved it. As jaedrik said, anally buttfrustrated.
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Post by Morshu on Sept 3, 2013 22:19:53 GMT -5
are you like not understanding his posts or something? Yeah the annoying invulnerability and not being OP I get it. But as long your packing a fully loaded ACR/UMP/RPD against his M9 and keep your aim on him, the last stand user should lose everytime unless someone else attacks you, in which the last stand user will die in 10 seconds anyway. If you use a tube or knife, which were VERY powerful in mw2, they won't even be able to use last stand.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 4, 2013 0:01:27 GMT -5
unless someone else attacks you, in which the last stand user will die in 10 seconds anyway. So? He dies anyway, you just get a free death to something you had no way of detecting beforehand. One of us lost a gunfight, we both took deaths. As I've said several times, that's not OP (not even powerful), it's just needlessly leveling the playing field between people who can win gunfights and people who can't. Bullsh it, in other words. Look, it's pretty obvious you either never really played MW2 or aren't very good at it. Knife is not powerful. Tubes are powerful in one out of the dozen plus playlists and pretty lackluster elsewhere. Ninja is better than all other perk 3 options, but isn't bullsh it. Relative power and bullsh it status are completely independent, nothing to do with each other whatsoever. This isn't a hard concept.
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Post by bucket415 on Sept 5, 2013 12:27:17 GMT -5
Maybe the CAPTCHA for sign up to this site should be an IQ test.
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Post by Morshu on Sept 5, 2013 20:18:17 GMT -5
unless someone else attacks you, in which the last stand user will die in 10 seconds anyway. So? He dies anyway, you just get a free death to something you had no way of detecting beforehand. One of us lost a gunfight, we both took deaths. As I've said several times, that's not OP (not even powerful), it's just needlessly leveling the playing field between people who can win gunfights and people who can't. Bullsh it, in other words. Look, it's pretty obvious you either never really played MW2 or aren't very good at it. Knife is not powerful. Tubes are powerful in one out of the dozen plus playlists and pretty lackluster elsewhere. Ninja is better than all other perk 3 options, but isn't bullsh it. Relative power and bullsh it status are completely independent, nothing to do with each other whatsoever. This isn't a hard concept. I can assure you I that played mw2 alot (30 days, my most played CoD) and was fairly good at it. If the knife was not powerful then why were some many people going MLC and tac knife without firing a single bullet and having decent success? Tubes were EVERYWHERE in mw2, ask anyone. Again, I understand you don't like because it's BS and not because it's OP. Even so, I didn't find it all that BS either. Any decently skilled player had nothing to worry about from last stand. The worst it could do is make you fall one kill short in the case that someone else attacks you. There are alot of other ways to get buzzkilled, its not a huge deal. Now if were talking about final stand, BO1 second chance, or DMH, yes, those were BS. Last stand was harmless.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Sept 5, 2013 21:12:29 GMT -5
Knife was only good under laggy conditions. Try going commando on LAN and its absolute trash. Tubes are "EVERYWHERE" in GW, Dom, and TDM because you can solo the entire fu cking gametype with them. Much less common in demo and sabo because objectives didn't put a big "kill me!" sign over your head. Only existed in search for the first ten seconds. Not very big in Team Tac because of the low player counts and much higher likelihood pf playing with someone who has friends (tubes were hard countered by coordination). Might exist in FFA too but MW2 FFA was horribad so i never played it MW2 had the best FFA in CoD history bar MW1. Go eat some cheez moo-c.
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Post by iw5000 on Sept 5, 2013 21:39:21 GMT -5
Knife was only good under laggy conditions. Try going commando on LAN and its absolute trash. Tubes are "EVERYWHERE" in GW, Dom, and TDM because you can solo the entire fu cking gametype with them. Much less common in demo and sabo because objectives didn't put a big "kill me!" sign over your head. Only existed in search for the first ten seconds. Not very big in Team Tac because of the low player counts and much higher likelihood pf playing with someone who has friends (tubes were hard countered by coordination). considering very few if any people played team tac or sabotage in MW2, he's kind of right about them being 'everywhere'. Domination and TDM probably take in most of the people playing every night.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 5, 2013 23:49:42 GMT -5
I can assure you I that played mw2 alot (30 days, my most played CoD) and was fairly good at it. If the knife was not powerful then why were some many people going MLC and tac knife without firing a single bullet and having decent success? Tubes were EVERYWHERE in mw2, ask anyone. Again, I understand you don't like because it's BS and not because it's OP. Even so, I didn't find it all that BS either. Any decently skilled player had nothing to worry about from last stand. The worst it could do is make you fall one kill short in the case that someone else attacks you. There are alot of other ways to get buzzkilled, its not a huge deal. Now if were talking about final stand, BO1 second chance, or DMH, yes, those were BS. Last stand was harmless. How good is fairly good? If you think the knife is good at all you're probably trash, sorry. Tubes are only good in Dom (and GW). Period. Don't take my word for it, go put the disc in and load up playlists other than those. Plenty of people still on MW2, I play it pretty frequently still. Tubes are useful for about five seconds in SnD as Mousey said, after which time everybody OMA's right out of that class. If you ever had a problem with tubes outside of dom or the knife, you're bad. Full stop. The only time anyone gets a knife kill even with commando is against an unaware enemy (could have killed him faster with a gun) or with lag lunge (again, same result if it had been a gun). It's a gimmick, a shame tactic. Anyone with a brain is going to hear you coming (because anyone with a brain has Ninja on their class) and kill you. It's QS tier at very best. You might have a higher BS tolerance than me, and that's fine. I'm not here to tell anyone what they can and can't enjoy. You can't say Second Chance is BS and Last Stand isn't, though. The variance issue is the same with each. It's still bullsh it. Even the fact that it's possible to play around in principle doesn't make it less bullsh it. The fact that you died so much that an extra here or there to bullsh it doesn't bother you doesn't diminish the bullsh it either, especially in public match CoD where streaks matter so much. Also Mousey MW2 FFA is super fun, don't hate. Only the occasional TI nuke boosters can ruin it, and ruining their fun is a game mode unto itself.
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Usagi
True Bro
Grin and Barrett
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Usagi on Sept 6, 2013 0:55:23 GMT -5
I played nothing but TDM in MW2 and I didn't run into tubes very often at all. Brokimbo G18s were a HUGE problem though.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Sept 11, 2013 18:56:10 GMT -5
Better a wiccan than a mouse.
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