The Burst Guns are too good for close range

[ecomni]

I'd also like to add that the "standard" loadout (SoH/SP/SA) gives a FAM16 user both the option to ADS in close range as well as get a better roll on the hip-fire one-burst-kill attempt.

[palestblue]

Sorry man, but you must be awful at the game or lag is Foxtrotting you over. The FAMAS will always group the first 2 shots close enough to hit within 2 bullet kill ranges

Well, we have observed different things. I'm neither awful at the game nor always put in laggy games. At close range, when sweeping over the enemy, it is not rare for the FAMAS to miss two bullets. Also, note that I said 'one to two' bursts. I would agree with you that, if you go down the sight and make some connection at close range with the FAMAS (which is tougher than it sounds and which many people here are taking for granted), it will more often than not make the one burst. At medium range, again, it is quite regular for the FAMAS to require two bursts, especially against a moving enemy. At long range, by which I mean moving into sniping distance, three bursts are most common (and you can verify this by testing out long-range bullet spreads -- it's clear that, at very long ranges, only one bullet will hit). You can dispute this all you like, but I suppose it's just one person's observations against another. Either way, when discussing number of bursts to kill, the most important factor is consistency -- how consistently can you hit your target with a burst-fire weapon? Missing even one burst would put a weapon like the ACR at an advantage.

After the first burst you're a negligible amount above where you orginally aiming.

You obviously are not familiar with the weapon or its recoil. I've spent a lot of time testing recoil on the burst weapons, and I can promise you that, by the time of the second burst, the recoil has reset entirely, and bullet 1 of burst 2 will go in the same place as bullet 1 of burst 1, assuming you do not change your aim. You can test it out yourself, and I assure you that you will see a complete recoil reset.

However, this recoil is extremely easy to adjust for because it's 100% predictable (straight up, like scar) and it's a small amount. The only difference this recoil makes is in recoil tests where you just fire

Again, you clearly have not observed the recoil patterns of the FAMAS at long and medium ranges. It goes up sometimes, but not 100% of the time, as you claim. It is not 100% predictable. It can move directly left or right, as well as 45 degrees left or right. It does not draw a straight line in terms of its recoil pattern. Also, the SCAR does not draw a straight line in terms of its recoil pattern. Fully auto it at medium range and you'll find that it goes both horizontally and vertically, having observed the pattern on a wall.

I, personally, am discussing the power of burst weapons (especially the FAMAS) compared with the ACR which is widely considered the best assault rifle. Those innumerable factors that you're asserting - they're all identical on the FAMAS and the ACR.

Of course not. Let's take drop-shotting, then. Drop-shotting with the ACR is reasonably effective, because once you go down, you can just spray and keep spraying with a tighter crosshair. A drop-shot is naturally going to extend the length of a gunfight, as at least one player will be missing while the other prones, and as we've discussed, longer gunfights are clearly more beneficial towards automatic weapons like the ACR. Ask anyone who drop-shots at a competitive level, and they will tell you that it is not very effective with something like the FAMAS. Hence we have a difference. And this is only one of the many other considerations whose significances you vacate.

In scrims following a ruleset with no perks, or if you choose coldblooded, lightweight, whatever the hell you choose that's not stopping power... THEN the ACR outclasses it.

You may play on a different platform to me, but you'll be hard pressed to find scrims with perks off on Xbox. If the perks are off, then health almost invariably will be on half (which would benefit the ACR, making it a two-bullet kill up close and at medium range).

The xbox360 mp40 was by far the worst SMG against multiple enemies. But it was by far the best in a 1v1 scenario. Everyone called it overpowered.

You've got to be joking. Extended mags, two-bullet kill with Juggernaut, great mobility -- and bad against multiple enemies?

[cptmacmillan]

Of course not. Let's take drop-shotting, then. Drop-shotting with the ACR is reasonably effective, because once you go down, you can just spray and keep spraying with a tighter crosshair. A drop-shot is naturally going to extend the length of a gunfight, as at least one player will be missing while the other prones, and as we've discussed, longer gunfights are clearly more beneficial towards automatic weapons like the ACR. Ask anyone who drop-shots at a competitive level, and they will tell you that it is not very effective with something like the FAMAS. Hence we have a difference. And this is only one of the many other considerations whose significances you vacate.

Going back to what I said... autofire vs burst fire. Autofire is only more efficient than burst fire if it would take 4 or more bullets for you to kill the opponent (missing, or low damage). In this case neither applies. Just because you're proning doesn't mean you can't aim your FAMAS and hit with the first burst.

You may play on a different platform to me, but you'll be hard pressed to find scrims with perks off on Xbox. If the perks are off, then health almost invariably will be on half (which would benefit the ACR, making it a two-bullet kill up close and at medium range).

On PC clan play is very different from clan play on Xbox.

You've got to be joking. Extended mags, two-bullet kill with Juggernaut, great mobility -- and bad against multiple enemies?

I said worst SMG for doing so. All SMGs have extended mags and great mobility, so that's not even close to a point. That leaves two-bullet kill - MORE THAN DAMAGE MATTERS. Damage alone means NOTHING. TTK is the game's equivalent to standard damage. The slow rate of fire makes killing multiple enemies a ton slower than other SMGs, because the Mp40 had a significantly slower fire rate. The only reason it came out on top in ttk is because the slower+more damaging you are, the more you benefit from an instant first shot, which you don't get when moving on to multiple targets. You only had to suffer your slower fire rate once against regular targets, because of 2-shot kill.

Edit: And to stress TTK some more, by using an extreme example to show what I mean. If you have a gun that kills in one perfectly accurate shot anywhere but takes 10 seconds between shots, it's going to DOMINATE 1v1 - and be totally useless against multiple enemies.

[mannon]

Dec 29, 2009 19:59:53 GMT -5 ilikev8 said:

Yes, the hipfiring is random and is more luck than it is skill, but every once in a while the burst connects and no assault rifle can beat a FAM16's TTK. In a real game this is what decides what team/player wins or loses. People never use the FAM16 for there run and gun classes, as it is not reliable but roll the dice and if you get the burst, they are good as dead.

And I could always fire a tube randomly across the entire map and every once in a while get lucky and kill the entire opposing team... What's wrong with luck being a factor? Just because it's possible to get a lucky hipfire doesn't make it OP. Hell the Barret with SP has to be the king of the hipfire lottery. Odds are pretty bad that you'll hit but hell if you do it's nearly guaranteed to 1HK. So what?

If you're going up against enemies that are attempting to abuse the FAM16 TTK in hipfire then you might as well just grab an SMG and strafe around them laughing maniacally as you fill them full of lead right in the range they are trying to use it. They will win a couple times, but their KDR will be skewed so badly next to yours that a few deaths will be worth it.

With regard to proning, it's going to throw your own aim off temporarily as well as the other guy's unless you run around maps looking at ceilings. Going from centermass to kneecaps adds a pretty good possibility of missing one or more bullets around or between the guy's legs if you try to burst as you prone. With a full auto it isn't as big a deal if your first shot misses, in fact it's worth taking that first shot early even if it only has a 50/50 chance of hitting because it could throw off your enemy's aim in addition to getting in some more damage that much faster, and even if you miss the first shot you have plenty more coming out. With a FAM16 you really don't want to spam. You have to aim and fire fast, but accurately. If you screw your burst then you've just wasted the FAM16's one precious advantage, TTK. By the same token if you are proning and hold your burst to steady your aim once you hit the deck rather than shooting as you go down like you can with full auto then you are again tossing away a pretty good chunk of your TTK advantage. About the only good use I can see for proning with a FAM16 is if you're just hipfiring anyway, in which case accuracy is pretty much out the window already. Still hipfiring a FAM16 is an even bigger lottery than the full auto's and on average it will go in favor of the full auto weapons.

TTK is not god. It's important, but not all encompassing.

Dec 29, 2009 20:33:15 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

I, personally, am discussing the power of burst weapons (especially the FAMAS) compared with the ACR which is widely considered the best assault rifle. Those innumerable factors that you're asserting - they're all identical on the FAMAS and the ACR. There are literally only five differences between the guns. 1) Firing mode. 2) Damage 3) Recoil/Accuracy 4) Rate of Fire 5) Reload speed. The first four are related to TTK. The fifth is insignificant.

Just because you can sum up a few statistics into a metastatistic like TTK that does not mean that TTK is the only way to evaluate the relative power of a weapon compared to other weapons. You seem to be oversimplifying. All of the various differences actually cause a multitude of varying results, not the least of which is changing the actual use of the weapon. I guarantee that I do not use my FAM16 and SCARH interchangeably. Each one has it's own quirks and requires some compensation. With the burstfire weapons it is much more important to be accurate than fast, but you actually need to be both, because if you take a hit you've just lost your aim and will have to recenter before you'll be able to hit. Burstfire is a tradeoff. You are trading in some versatility for TTK and tight grouping in ADS.

To get good with the burstfire weapons you need to both accuracy and trigger control, because firing your load off early and missing the target even just 33% of the time is a big friggin deal with a burstfire. And yet if you cannot get off the first shot there's a very good chance you'll take a hit at just the wrong time and miss entirely. It's a fickle sombitch, and it actually does take some skill to get good with it. More experience than skill I'd say, but I digress.

If you played both weapons exactly the same then yes the only difference would be whether or not you can manage to get the kill in 3 shots or less. But playing the weapons exactly the same is a mistake. With the FAM16 you have a good TTK if you don't miss and lousy if you don't, it actually makes ADS FAR more important despite the delay. It even means that you will on average fire later than you would with a full auto just because you're trying to insure that you don't miss. Now if you're very good at aiming quickly or have very good trigger control and reaction time when people just happen to wander under your crosshairs, or if you just get lucky, then yeah the FAM16 is pretty badass.

But in order to get to that point still requires tradeoffs. Hell even the weapon's reliance on SP for long range 1 burst kills and making hipfire anything like useful or cutting TTK is a pretty big tradeoff. With the ACR you practically don't even need SP since your very next bullet out the tube at any range is nearly guaranteed to hit, so the change in TTK is negligible. For the FAM16 it's a whole other ballgame.

If you're having trouble vs FAM16's in close quarters don't let them ADS, don't let them use cover, and move laterally, not right at them. There's no juicier target for a FAM16 than some guy running strait at you. If it's the corners then keep in mind that half of those confrontations should favor you instead of him, get in the first shot ASAP to toss his aim out the window and keep moving laterally to screw with his aim whether he tries to ADS or hipfire. If he's more of an ADS whore then try to strafe around him at very close range and if he's a hipfire whore then don't get in too close or he'll just shotgun you with the bursts, and if he does both then find a happy medium and do your best. The fact is that he still has to see your avatar before he can shoot it. Pop out from behind cover to hit him, prone, whatever. With a full auto you can't run and gun as well as an SMG in CQ, but you can do it better than a burstfire can.

In other words anything you can do to help throw off his aim helps you more than it hurts you with a full auto, but when it's a burstfire anything that hurts your own aim is several times more detrimental to you even if it makes you a slightly harder target.

I will agree with you that the burstfire weapons can be pretty dangerous at any range, but I think it's a long way to go from pretty dangerous to OP, especially since there are weapons that can outperform them at each discreet range, if not necessarily across the entire spectrum of ranges.

[ssog]

Dec 28, 2009 19:40:48 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

nevermind the fact that the burst rifles fire faster with a whole step up on the damage ladder and still being similar in accuracy.

Similar in accuracy? To the ACR? What a joke.

The burst-fire rifles aren't just more inaccurate than the ACR, they're also more inaccurate than the freaking M4! The gun that they're "similar in accuracy" to isn't the ACR, it's the SCAR. Do some tests against a wall if you don't believe me.

Dec 29, 2009 9:58:10 GMT -5 iKONIG said:

make the Intervention, AK47, F2000, grenades, throwing knives and all the SMGs completely pointless.

SMGs pwn ARs in objective gametypes, and Throwing Knives are God's gift to Riot Shielders. But then, I suppose when you called them pointless, what you really meant was pointless in core TDM with your particular playstyle and weapon choices.

[mw0swedeking]

Dec 29, 2009 18:42:22 GMT -5 mannon said:

The FAM16 is a fine weapon, but it has to be used wisely to really shine. You can get better with the other AR's too, but not to the same degree.

Anybody else think this statements a little odd from someone saying the FAM16 isn't overpowered?

I think the problem people really have with this gun is it's overwhelming ability to camp. Duck down, pop up, pop off a burst, duck back down... you're untouchable. And a team of these, all tactical loitering... exasperating, and really impregnates this idea that the gun is overpowered. The other exasperating thing about it is that you only have to aim for a fraction of a second. Full auto guns (like the ACR) require their user to keep a bead on their enemy for a longer time. If the enemies standing still or headed straight for you, the M16 gets the edge. If their moving side to side, the M16 still has the edge.

[cptmacmillan]

I'm a bit busy so I'm just going to reply to one little portion that's not so much an argument.

I will agree with you that the burstfire weapons can be pretty dangerous at any range, but I think it's a long way to go from pretty dangerous to OP, especially since there are weapons that can outperform them at each discreet range, if not necessarily across the entire spectrum of ranges.

I never suggested that it was OP, simply the best assault rifle (better than ACR). If your consider ARs OP then that's your thing, not mine. or you're confusing my view with someone else.

[spifnar]

If you hand the average player a FAM16 and track his success against a similar player with an ACR/SCAR/M4, my money is on the guy with the spray rifle getting a better K/D ratio and more points.

It takes someone with good reaction time and quick aim (outside of long range corridor tactical loitering) to make better use of the FAM16. Mostly because if you're slower than your opponent, impact-kick will totally screw up your bursts.

Having weapons with a higher "skill cap" is not a bad thing.

[robesh]

Dec 28, 2009 21:38:51 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

There is quite a significant difference in recoil between the ACR and FAMAS, and you can test this easily. (It might not look like much of a difference, but at long range, any recoil is exaggerated greatly in terms of effect.)

Maybe after 3 shots the recoil will become noticeable, but the recoil of the first burst is totally negligible, and if you can aim good the first burst is the only one that matters.

I agree: If you have the skill, FAM16 is the best gun in the game.

But there's a problem with that. A weapon is not overpowered if it requires skill. The skill put into the weapon by the user is what makes it powerful. That is why the FAM16 is, IMO, balanced in MW2. It is still effective, but to be effective you need more skill than all the other AR's.

The reason the ACR is the new "n00b lazor" is because anyone with half a brain can use it. The low recoil means there is no penalty for spraying, and missing. The full-auto and low recoil means you can miss and not worry at all. ACR=OP, especially when compared to the M4.

In a perfect world (assuming your aim is always on target), the ACR is only better than the FAM16 when firing from the hip, where there will be misses and you can't control your hip-fire.

tl;dr version:

FAM16 > ACR if you have skill, ACR > FAM16 if you miss a lot, and FAM16 is usually < ACR when firing from the hip.

But since AR hip-fire is very inaccurate anyway, you might-as-well knife or switch to a SPAS12/other secondary in that kind of a situation.

[mannon]

Dec 30, 2009 20:52:26 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

Dec 29, 2009 18:42:22 GMT -5 mannon said:

The FAM16 is a fine weapon, but it has to be used wisely to really shine. You can get better with the other AR's too, but not to the same degree.

Anybody else think this statements a little odd from someone saying the FAM16 isn't overpowered?

Saying a gun takes skill and experience to reach it's full potential does not make it OP.

Dec 30, 2009 20:52:26 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

I think the problem people really have with this gun is it's overwhelming ability to camp. Duck down, pop up, pop off a burst, duck back down... you're untouchable. And a team of these, all tactical loitering... exasperating, and really impregnates this idea that the gun is overpowered. The other exasperating thing about it is that you only have to aim for a fraction of a second. Full auto guns (like the ACR) require their user to keep a bead on their enemy for a longer time. If the enemies standing still or headed straight for you, the M16 gets the edge. If their moving side to side, the M16 still has the edge.

Ahh so one of your main gripes is actually against tactical loitering rather than the gun it-self. Sorry, but I can't help but disagree. tactical loitering is a perfectly legitimate way to play, especially when the game is specifically designed to make it dangerous to camp for very long with the killcam and every position can be flanked. At any rate if you are up against campers doing that then you have one advantage in that you know where they are, abuse it. Semtex and tubes are great for campers. Also if he is popping up from a window like that there's an even simpler answer, spray under the window. Penetration is your friend. And you can always sneak around and flank, just watch for claymores.

As for ACR, actually I'd recommend a noob go with the M4 over the ACR since the wider spread will actually help them when their aim is off just a little. Once their aim develops the ACR is FTW, but it's embarrassing to spray 8 bullets right next to your target while they slowly turn around and nail you.

I basically think of the M4 and SCAR-H as trainers for the ACR and TAR-21. ;p Though I still have a soft spot in my heart for the SCAR since I really like the tighter spread at longer distances.

(screwed up the quote... fixed)

[vicg]

the famas or m16 barely ever get you one burst kills at long range. The acr definitely beats it long range in any situation. The famas can only really get you consistent one burst kills from mid range. Even in close range you can still shoot the target and hit and not get a one burst kill. This is from someone who has used the famas extensively to get the challenges for it. You have probably never really used the famas throwing it off as nooby but if you had used it sufficiently you would notice that once it gets to a certain range its almost impossible to get a one burst kill and also the recoil throws you completely off target. I use the ACR and i feel dirty because of how easily I can pick off targets across the map and how ridiculous it is. The ACR is the ultimate noob gun and it is obvious because every player uses it and instantly loves it. Also some of the numbers here are just speculation or made up like 99.9% accuracy, this obviously shows you haven't used the gun. The burst fire weapons aren't the problem in COD anymore. Not only did infinity ward nerf them by making them have a larger spread over large distance but they also buffed every other gun by taking away sway and recoil, which in my opinion was dumb s hell.

[mw0swedeking]

Dec 31, 2009 22:00:31 GMT -5 mannon said:

Dec 30, 2009 20:52:26 GMT -5 mw0swedeking said:

Anybody else think this statements a little odd from someone saying the FAM16 isn't overpowered?

Saying a gun takes skill and experience to reach it's full potential does not make it OP.

I don't mean to offend and hope I didn't, I was just saying how you said that "You can get better with other ARs too, but not as much." If you can't get as good with the other ARs then wouldn't that make it overpowered? Or did you mean something else by it?

Anyway, I don't think the FAM16 is very overpowered, but a little because popping in and out of cover takes advantage of the net code, so they can and frequently do shoot you before you ever saw them. I don't really have a problem with tactical loitering unless it's "Staying within a 512 unit radius for more than 60 seconds without earning any gametype specific bonus points." Like ADSing with a FAM16 at a corner of a building that cannot be shot through, sidestepping out, taking a shot and stepping back, and having teammates covering all your flanks in the same way. Sure semtexes, C4, or noobtubes can get them, but I'm normally running a SMG and claymores, so I can get behind them and cut them up, if I switch to semtex they shoot me right before I get the throw off. In the end, the biggest indicator of whether a gun is OP or not is how many there are, and I see a LOT of FAM16.

[mannon]

A lot of people using them could mean OP or could just mean it's a decent gun, or that it's considered cool, or it's noob friendly, or any number of things. It's an indicator of something to look into, but cannot determine OP otherwise we would always be assuming the most popular weapon in the game is OP and be nerfing it. (Which IW seems to do when they go from game to game, annoyingly nerfing the popular guns from previous games...)

I would put it this way. The FAM16 and the ACR are IMO in the highest class of AR's. ACR is more noob friendly and there are tradeoffs between the two. Some will prefer one over the other. Personally I'd put the TAR-21 just under them since it's a pretty badass gun for anyone that can handle the recoil. I personally hate recoil, but then I like my fights either at long range or at close but undetected range where TTK won't matter but missing might. Due to that I actually don't put the SCAR-H much below the TAR-21. Honestly I don't really compare them to the ACR or FAM16 much. They are just very different. Oh I left out the M4 which is a decent weapon. For me it comes below all the said weapons though I actually enjoy using it more than the TAR-21. It's pretty decently accurate, though and underrated. In fact I'd really say you have three classes of AR right there and it looks like each one has a "trainer" version that's a little more noob friendly and a "pro" version that is a superior weapon.

M4 < ACR
SCAR-H < TAR-21
FAMAS = M16

The FAM16 seems to be the exception having neigh identical stats, though reportedly the FAMAS has better range. I should test that, myself. Testing may eventually reveal some other subtle difference, though.

The AK is in the SCAR/TAR class, and falls between the two in ROF and recoil, but has nerf sway.

The FAL is in it's own class being an AR/Sniper hybrid.

The FN2000 similarly is in it's own class being an AR/SMG hybrid.

It's interesting, but there seems to actually be quiet a bit of logic to the weapons included in the game. Given this logic the only way for the FAM16 to be OP is if it completely outclasses the other top class weapons the ACR and TAR-21. Personally I don't think it does. The FAM16 is great at what it does well, and pretty much can't be touched, but think about how you use the ACR and TAR-21 differently. The FAM16 wouldn't work well like that. Each one is top of it's own discrete class and which is best will really come down more to your own personal play style.

I'd also say that each class requires slightly different levels of experience and proficiency to achieve peak performance.

M4/ACR = Low Damage/Low Recoil = Noob friendly.
SCAR/TAR = High Damage/High Recoil = Requires more proficiency to counter recoil.
FAM16 = High Damage/Burstfire = Requires the most experience, aim, and trigger control to shine.