hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 8, 2014 8:50:42 GMT -5
When Bungie's infographic thing for the event leads with "level advantages enabled" you tend to get the impression that being at a higher level will be beneficial to you in encounters with lower level opponents, when in reality there are no significant level advantages at play. It then goes on to say that attack and defense rating will be crucial to victory. If that's the case, why is a guy with a level 8 sniper rifle that's probably around 70 attack able to OHSK a guy with 1200 defense just as easily as my 267 attack sniper does? Why does it take the same number of SUROS shots for me to down a guy with 600 defense vs a guy with 1200 defense? Why say gear matters when it doesn't actually matter? The whole event and presentation thereof is extremely misleading. It's basically nothing more than regular crucible with a different vendor and reputation system being passed off as some super special event. Personally I was hoping for something a little bit different, but it's looking more and more like nothing truly different is going to get added until the first expansion hits in December. Which is fine, because it gives me plenty of time to level up alternate characters without feeling that I'm missing out on anything by doing that instead of these events. For how much would a sniper rifle with 70 attack hit a guy with headshot modifier and his 1200 defense applied? Enough to kill him in 1-2 shots? How is defense applied in that aspect? I've played other games where defense was only applied for "white" damage which was more used for raid bosses as they did hard hitting melee attacks. Red marked seems very strange to me, though I did a lvl 8 strike the other day with my mostly rare equipped lvl 20 character and I managed to die due to the misconception that mobs wouldn't do very much damage on me as much better gear than at lvl 8 and lvl difference. Well that's the thing--nobody really knows because none of that is made clear in-game, and we don't have any detailed stats available (yet). What I do know for sure is that if I was level 8 in PvE and headshotted something even 2 or 3 levels above me, it wouldn't be an OSK. I also know that level 8 PvE sniper enemies (vandals, hobgoblins) can't 1 or 2 shot kill my level 28 character. You can definitely die to low level mobs in PvE, but it takes rushing in and getting swarmed for that to happen most of the time. Like I said, I thought the whole thing was extremely misleading. Looking around the 'net there are plenty of others who feel the same way. |
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 8, 2014 9:58:35 GMT -5
While trying to kill AI's several levels over you results in them resisting your damage to greater and greater extents until becoming immune completely, the reverse does not appear to be true. In fact I believe the amount of damage they do to you doesn't actually change based on level. Higher defense should definitely help, but I don't know the formula.
As for Iron Banner I dunno. I would assume player level it-self does not factor into anything, but attack and defense should. They may have toned down the affects of attack and defense, however, rather than simply using the PvE formula. Odd...
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Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 8, 2014 12:15:27 GMT -5
If I had to guess, here's how it probably works:
The stats for your base armor and weapon damage are normalized, just as they are in normal Crucible games.
The damage upgrades to your armor and weapons you have unlocked are applied, which they are not in normal Crucible games.
There are no damage bonuses for relative level number like in PvE.
How else would it work? People are complaining about players leaving losing matches because there's no reward for the losing team. Imagine being put in a lobby where most of the players you are literally unable to damage - think about what that would do to quit rates. Even going up against a team where most players are one or two levels above you would be completely pointless. Someone explain to me how it could work and not be completely unplayable because you are at the complete mercy of the matchmaking.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 8, 2014 12:18:07 GMT -5
For how much would a sniper rifle with 70 attack hit a guy with headshot modifier and his 1200 defense applied? Enough to kill him in 1-2 shots? How is defense applied in that aspect? I've played other games where defense was only applied for "white" damage which was more used for raid bosses as they did hard hitting melee attacks. Red marked seems very strange to me, though I did a lvl 8 strike the other day with my mostly rare equipped lvl 20 character and I managed to die due to the misconception that mobs wouldn't do very much damage on me as much better gear than at lvl 8 and lvl difference. Well that's the thing--nobody really knows because none of that is made clear in-game, and we don't have any detailed stats available (yet). What I do know for sure is that if I was level 8 in PvE and headshotted something even 2 or 3 levels above me, it wouldn't be an OSK. I also know that level 8 PvE sniper enemies (vandals, hobgoblins) can't 1 or 2 shot kill my level 28 character. You can definitely die to low level mobs in PvE, but it takes rushing in and getting swarmed for that to happen most of the time. Like I said, I thought the whole thing was extremely misleading. Looking around the 'net there are plenty of others who feel the same way. This gets to some of the threads I have been putting up about the PvP. Bungie fvcked up that part game. It's a mishmash of poorly thought out design elements and implementation. They didn't think it out properly when releasing the game (just like the obviously plot elements they just dropped upon release) |
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Oct 8, 2014 12:19:37 GMT -5
That's old news.  I've been having fun in iron banner tho...mainly because I'm playing on a team of people with mythoclasts... Gotta get me that shader. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 8, 2014 12:46:04 GMT -5
Regarding PvE damage numbers of players vs. AI on different levels, the design is asymmetrical. Datto's video of "Attack vs. Impact" explained this part in some detail. In a nutshell: 1) Player vs. higher level AI: the bigger the level difference, the more severe the damage reduction. His tests during beta showed that 2 level below = ~50% reduction (at 5 minute mark of the video). This is why any missions with >=3 levels above yours will be extremely difficult to complete; 2) Player vs. lower level AI: the damage number pretty much stays constant, until the AI is way below your level (say 5+), at which time the player will actually do less damage. The goal here is when a high level players (say level 29) team up with a lower level players (say level 22) and work on a level appropriate mission for the low level player (say mission level is 22), the game can still be fun, not end up in a situation that the high level players walk over everything while the lower level players struggle to get any kill. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 8, 2014 12:53:38 GMT -5
Regarding Iron Banner discussions/debates, IMHO so far all evidences discussed here are very vague, not much beyond just a "feeling", with no numbers to back anything up. If we want to truly get a better sense what's going on, we need to do a few things:
a) So far the feelings are mostly from high level players (27+ is my guess). A different and maybe better way is to intentionally go in at lower level, say ~20, play ~3 games in Iron Banner, then switch to regular Crucible and do ~3 games there, and see how much more difficult the life is in Iron Banner. Only if you see no real difference in such experiments can you really claim that Iron Banner is no different from Crucible;
b) Getting some real numbers won't be hard. Go into an Iron Banner game, record some clips of encounters against players at different levels, and then later check out the damage numbers and see how different they are. To get the defense numbers of the opponent, all you need to do is to look up the PSN-ID/XBL-GT on destinytracker.com (note: remember to click "update stats" to get the latest info). it will show you what gears the player equipped. (Bungie.net would have been a better source, but there is no easy way to look up Bungie.net profile id from PSN-ID/XBL-GT.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 8, 2014 13:04:12 GMT -5
Witty - you can look in the recent activity feed, select the game, and in the Post-Game Carnage Report ( example), click the player's name. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 8, 2014 13:14:31 GMT -5
Witty - you can look in the recent activity feed, select the game, and in the Post-Game Carnage Report ( example), click the player's name. Great to know, thanks! On the broader discussion: I do agree that Bungie is not making the stats transparent enough and it is causing lots of confusions. For a simple example, the only numeric numbers we got are "Attack" and "Defense". We already know the "Attack" number is somewhat meaningless and borderline useless, and I know even less what "Defense" number represents when put that up against the damage. I understand that they want to intentionally hide things so they can have more freedom to tweak things behind the scenes, as well as making it difficult for evil gamers to exploit it. But the current level of opaqueness is ridiculous. On the Sniper Rifle OSK headshot: that's how it always work in Bungie's games and they are not going to make it any different in Iron Banner. Just imagine that it's like Achilles heel and no amount of protection can stop that. |
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 8, 2014 13:25:49 GMT -5
Attack is not meaningless except in Crucible. In PvE Attack, Impact, weapon tier modifier, and the player and enemy levels all go into determining damage. In some cases a higher Attack value can be better than a higher Impact value, but it varies depending upon the level disparity between the player and the mob. So it's not always going to be X Attack = Y Impact. It literally depends on what you're fighting as well.
Yes, it's complicated and not transparent... at all. But unless you're a real grognard for data like we tend to be you can generally get a feel for which weapon does more damage just based on Attack, Impact, and weapon level, and you can usually just go on patrol and shoot some random mobs to test. Just try to find enemies the same level you want to use the weapon against or your tests may show results that won't bear out in combat conditions.
In Crucible pretty much everything but Impact is ignored is my understanding. In Iron Banner I assume Attack is not ignored, but weapon tier probably still is from what I'm hearing.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 8, 2014 13:37:12 GMT -5
Attack is not meaningless except in Crucible. In PvE Attack, Impact, weapon tier modifier, and the player and enemy levels all go into determining damage. In some cases a higher Attack value can be better than a higher Impact value, but it varies depending upon the level disparity between the player and the mob. So it's not always going to be X Attack = Y Impact. It literally depends on what you're fighting as well. Yes, it's complicated and not transparent... at all. But unless you're a real grognard for data like we tend to be you can generally get a feel for which weapon does more damage just based on Attack, Impact, and weapon level, and you can usually just go on patrol and shoot some random mobs to test. Just try to find enemies the same level you want to use the weapon against or your tests may show results that won't bear out in combat conditions. In Crucible pretty much everything but Impact is ignored is my understanding. In Iron Banner I assume Attack is not ignored, but weapon tier probably still is from what I'm hearing. Is it possible to explain the formula? Let's say I am using this weapon of mine:Hex Caster Arc (Legendary). The stats show this gun does 267 damage. It's max is 300 if I fully level it up (I still have three more checks to do) When I shoot an enemy, this gun does not do 267 damage. How does this process work? I read the one post up. And in it, there was a link with this text. But I didn't understand it. |
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 8, 2014 13:49:30 GMT -5
Best I can do right now from behind work firewall is point you at this: www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2brx1s/some_mechanics_behind_the_damage_calculations_in/I recall somebody doing follow up research showing Attack vs Impact across differening level disparities, but can't find it at the moment. I can't even look up your weapon's specific stats right now. Most of the research I've seen was based on beta as well, though I'd expect Bungie probably kept the formulas and only tweaked modifiers and such since. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 8, 2014 18:13:47 GMT -5
Hebbnh, you ignore the tact that the dude already lost his shield before he got hit by that sniper. There is not a big advantage, but i I am not convinced there is none. I would like to see a number of hits to kill on both a high and low lvl character. And not with something like a sniper, but something lower damage.
Edit: whoops, missed the 2nd page
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Post by GodMars on Oct 8, 2014 23:45:53 GMT -5
I actually had a pretty good time in Iron Banner tonight. I also dropped two out of three dudes I faced who were using the Mythoclast while I was rocking the Regime. They may need to nerf me in an upcoming patch.
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Post by psychlon on Oct 9, 2014 4:24:34 GMT -5
I actually had a pretty good time in Iron Banner tonight. I also dropped two out of three dudes I faced who were using the Mythoclast while I was rocking the Regime. They may need to nerf me in an upcoming patch. Any of your characters will always only every do 1 damage per shot (rocket launcher will do 2), regardless of level and weapon. |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 9, 2014 8:17:45 GMT -5
One problem I found with the Iron Banner is this.
We went into some games with only three people last night. We saw a lot of lower level people get grouped up with us over a number of games, ...and they almost all inevitably quit, leaving us at a 3 v6 or 4 v 6 disadvantage.
It is my understanding that some rewards like leveling only go to the winner of the match. If so, what would appear to be going on is low level guys trying to boost wins, and then quitting immediately if the other team is decent.
Very lame.
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Post by GodMars on Oct 10, 2014 14:40:21 GMT -5
Well, it appears now that everyone has gotten the memo that Iron Banner is really no different than the Crucible, and it's degenerated into the usual crouching in corners or jumping around with a shotgun nonsense the Crucible is. Two days of fun replaced by the usual blah. And hey, no rewards for losing! Excuse me while I leave this match...
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 10, 2014 14:48:35 GMT -5
FYI: Datto's opinion on Iron Banner
Expect to see some explanations from Bungie in today's weekly update on whether they think that they messed this up or not. And if the answer is no, how is it supposed to work ??!!
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 10, 2014 14:56:55 GMT -5
You'd think if level actually mattered, that they'd make match making within a level or 2 of one another... ie: 20-25, 25-29, 30
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 10, 2014 15:02:40 GMT -5
You'd think if level actually mattered, that they'd make match making within a level or 2 of one another... ie: 20-25, 25-29, 30 That was my expectation: matchmaking is level based in addition to location/network/etc. There are issues with that. The biggest one being that unless there are a huge player pool of different levels playing this, the matchmaking could take excruciatingly long time to find a suitable lobby. Another way is to have separate playlists for different levels, similar to the Strike playlists. Problem there is that such approaches could segregate the player population too much and also cause grief to matchmaking. Strike playlists only need to find 3 players, while Crucible needs 6 - 12. |
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Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 10, 2014 15:43:27 GMT -5
People...think this through.
Imagine they made it so level provided a significant advantage, and matchmaking tried to automatically group players who were near each other in level. Everyone would know that sometimes they would be put in a lobby where they would be at the bottom of the range of levels, sometimes in the middle, and sometimes in the top. Logical players would leave lobbies until they found a game where they were at the top. This method does not work.
Imagine they made it so level provided a significant advantage, and there were playlists like the Vanguard playlists, with different level tiers. If players are able to choose their level tier, all logical players will choose the lowest tier. If players are automatically put in a tier, unless they are the top level of their current tier, all logical players will change their armor to remove light until they drop down to the top level of the next lowest tier. This method does not work.
Imagine they made it so level provided a significant advantage, but they were able to find a system that players were not able to manipulate that was successful at placing players in lobbies with similar level players. By placing players against similar level players, they remove any incentive to be higher level. This method does not work.
Keep in mind, we haven't even discussed how level advantages would create issues with parties with differences in level, and what they could do to create a system that both allows parties and prevents exploitation. Keep in mind, as we've seen with the loot cave, if there is any opportunity to exploit the system, nearly everyone will take advantage of it.
I'll ask again: can someone please explain to me how it could work and not be completely unplayable?
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Oct 10, 2014 15:55:27 GMT -5
They have to make it appealing to complete a lost game. A fraction of the winning team's IB rep gain might be nice. Maybe 1/3? 1/2?
IB was supposed to be the hard earned curbstomping that IW5K describes. They just need to incentivize the fodder.
Mwahahahaha
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 10, 2014 15:58:47 GMT -5
It is an interesting discussion and we can get into pages and pages of ideas that Bungie won't do anything about. That said, why not?  One thing that immediately comes to mind is that to use "reward" system as a lever to gauge player interests. Putting implementation details aside, the goal to achieve here is that The bigger the level differential is, the greater the value of the potential rewards are for the lower "level" (note that here by level I mean a broader concept, with power of weapons taking into consideration as well) players. So the incentive to go after higher level is better loot, while the incentive to play against lower level is the cheap thrill of stomping.If such a system can be reasonably built, then soft level gated playlists can be established, say at level 22, 26, and 30. Players within +/- 2 levels are allowed to play (basically not much different from the Strike playlists): 1) 22: players of level 20 - 24 can play; (level 20 will get crashed most of the time, but with sick loots everybody at his level would envy. Level 24 on the other hand will have great K/Ds, but absolutely no chance of getting anything interesting) 2) 26: players of level 24 - 28 can play; 3) 30: players of level 28 - 30 can play; With only 3, each should still have big enough of a player base to make Matchmaking smooth. As for the game modes: why not make each playlists a "variety pack" kind of experience, featuring a rotation of all 6v6 game modes? If player stats is a concern (e.g.: K/D): the game can offer "weighted" stats, with level differentials properly considered. Note: none of the above have been thought through. I am just throwing ideas out there to inspire discussions. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 10, 2014 16:18:46 GMT -5
Another random idea is to intentionally introduce asymmetric game play experience. Take gate=22 playlist as an example. The norm is each side should have 6 level 22 players. When lower level / higher level players are involved the team can be asymmetric. say 8 level 20 vs. 4 level 24. Of course, such system could be too complex to nearly impossible to implement, but does not hurt to brainstorm |
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 11, 2014 11:47:00 GMT -5
Personally I think that there shouldn't be any direct level based effects involved in IB, just equipment. Better defense and attack should have an effect, maybe even item level/weapon tier. Having said that the effect shouldn't be all consuming. I think that someone with lesser equipment should still be able to kill someone with better gear, they should simply be at a disadvantage. Being able to headshot 1HK someone with the best armor in the game with the worst sniper rifle in the game doesn't sound like a problem to me. That's what sniper rifles are supposed to be for and headshots are definitely skillshots that are difficult to pull off. It should, however, take several more body shots to kill them. That's my opinion anyway. That it should be 50% EPEEN and 50% skill, otherwise why bother actually fighting?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 11, 2014 13:32:36 GMT -5
In this weeek's weekly update, Bungie offered some explanations about Iron Banner design. Also, the tone of the message seems to hint that they know they did a poor job tuning the parameters, without explicitly admitting it. They will look at data and evolve the next time.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 11, 2014 13:48:20 GMT -5
My understanding from the above post:
1) Level diff is capped at 7. Level 5 vs. 30 is no worse than level 22 vs. 30.
2) Most powerful weapon on weakest gear seems to have the same kill time as in regular Crucible, let's call this the "baseline". As defense go up, the kill gets harder.
3) When a player with very powerful weapons and armors again one with weak gear: the difference in number of hits needed to kill each other wont be bigger than 20%. So if the latter have more superior skill to get that extra 20% hits in before the former, he wilk still win.
4) Both regular Crucible and Iron Banner have skill basEd matchmaking
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