Bungie done goofed: Oct 14th Hotfix

[wittyscorpion]

With all the debates that we have been having lately, is it time to admit that PvE and PvP don't mix well?

This forbes article does seem to think so. It summarized lots of our concerns pretty well.

[iw5000]

Oct 15, 2014 17:45:54 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

With all the debates that we have been having lately, is it time to admit that PvE and PvP don't mix well?

This forbes article does seem to think so. It summarized lots of our concerns pretty well.

I was saying this stuff weeks ago Witty. I'm glad the media is catching up.

I also get a small chuckle out the shotgun nerf. For the life of me, I just don't understand how some people on this board kept saying shotguns weren't used that much in PvP. I seriously wonder how much Crucible these people play. Shotguns were everywhere. Just my purely anecdotal 120+ game evidence would say that 1/3 to 1/2 of all opponents were running shotties in the control game mode. I know some people love this (as shotties are underrepresented in CoD), but it was a bit ridiculous. For two reasons. One, there are about eight gun types in this game, and one of shotties representing 50% of the lobbies was a bit silly. Two, due to the exotic/legendary issue stuff, it was impossible to get a feel for what these guns could do. Did I die because he outshot me with tactics? Or did I die because I simply haven't played four days, and don't have the right weapon? Hard to say. There are (or were) fully leveled shotguns out there one shot killing from ridiculous distances.

I can't gauge many of the comments made by that author. The shotty was nerfed? How much? I have no clue. There is really no use for a shotgun in the PvE experience. In the higher level raids/strikes I have done, it's all sniper, all day, all the time. So the gun has already been rendered meaningless in PvE, well before the patch. The author doesn't seem to get that part. In PvP? Again, with Bungie deliberate stat obfuscation it seems a bit pointless to try and even judge what their 10% and other reductions mean.

PvP is a bit garbage FPS'ing. You can still have fun, but you have to view it like playing Mario Cart. And also have some patience to ignore all the fake-skill wannabe asshats who think just because they have a better gun, they are a better player. It's CoD with DeadMan'sHand 24/7 round the clock!!!!

"But when was Halo at its best? I think most would argue that was during Halo 2 or 3, when players all had access to equal weapons that did the same damage, and armor wasn’t even a factor. The game relied on map knowledge, teamwork and skill, and it wasn’t even possible to complain that one item was severely unbalanced over others, considering everyone had access to the same arsenal."
.

.

edit...basing the above on recent experience too. I played eight control games last night. What is ironic is this. My worst of the eight games, was my last game. We had a group of six, just completed the VoG, and then did a warmdown on Crucible, the six of us. My worst game, we got crushed 11,000 to 20,000. WTF? Very weird. All my other games were playing solo. SBMM?

8. Loss 6-13
7. Win 17-14
6. Loss 14-16
5. Win 21-14
4. Win 13-8
3. Win 19-10
2. Loss 8-11
1. Win 18-2

116-88 - 1.32

[wittyscorpion]

SBMM definitely exists, but I have not seen any info on how it works. It should work better for players who have played a lot of PvP.

If you are curious: destinytracker.com has a stat called TruSkills, with one value for each game mode. It also has a crap load of other stats you can compare players with. So you can take the games you played, check every player in the lobby (Bungie.net has the complete history of what you played and who you played with), and see how big of a factor the skill is in matchmaking.

Note: when checking player stats on destinytracker, you must hit the "update" button to get the most recent data. Otherwise it will show the stale version of when the last time somebody checked that player.

[iw5000]

Oct 16, 2014 10:13:53 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

SBMM definitely exists, but I have not seen any info on how it works. It should work better for players who have played a lot of PvP.

If you are curious: destinytracker.com has a stat called TruSkills, with one value for each game mode. It also has a crap load of other stats you can compare players with. So you can take the games you played, check every player in the lobby (Bungie.net has the complete history of what you played and who you played with), and see how big of a factor the skill is in matchmaking.

Note: when checking player stats on destinytracker, you must hit the "update" button to get the most recent data. Otherwise it will show the stale version of when the last time somebody checked that player.

That's interesting Witty. I might check it out. Thanks. But i'll be honest here and say that I really don't care about it that much. As to whether SBMM is highly influential or just a minor adjustment like CoD. With the way Bungie keeps stats, how the PvE/PvP experience is,....I simply don't give a sh1t about my stats. While I try to win like a try-hard (cant' turn that off) when the game ends it makes no difference to me. And KD ratio? It's more meaningless than CoD as Destiny's PvP is not a fair playing field. All I am really concerned about is what loot I get, and what bounties I did.

I think PvP has potential, but this version is missing the mark badly.

[wittyscorpion]

If I had to choose between the following 2:

1) completely separate PvP vs. PvE, with better balance and consistency on PvP

vs.

2) unified PvP and PvE, with glaring balance and consistency issues but still fun to play

I would prefer 2) any day. This is because we already have a plethora of choices for 1, so I would like to have at least one game that makes 2 playable.

Of course, ideally we would like to have a game that has unified PvE and PvP, while making PvP balanced and consistent. We now established that this is a very tough problem to tackle. With that premise, it looks like Bungie did a decent enough job with the initial attempt (at least enough people are having fun with PvP, despite the glaring weaknesses). They have a large number of dials and knobs at their disposal to fine tune the experience, we will see how far they can go with this "experiment".

The silver lining here is that most players won't fuss about things like K/D for bragging rights, because they can be easily shrugged off with balance related arguments. With that out of the way, Crucible can be an excellent playground to goof around. Yesterday I watched somebody using Hand Cannon in PvP on Twitch, that looks fun even when it resulted in much lower KDR vs. his "regular performances" in other games. I will have to try that (HC in PvP) sometime

[iw5000]

When you getting on next Witty?

[mannon]

I really want to try my handcannon that has the quick reload after precision kills in Crucible, because it's already so much fun in PvE I bet it would be a blast in PvP. I love the sped up reload animation, it's the next best thing to twirling the revolver around my finger. ;3 It's just too bad there's no killcam for my victim to watch me do it in. heh Who cares what it does to my K/D if it lets me kill with style and have fun doing it. heh heh

[GodMars]

Oct 16, 2014 8:22:26 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 15, 2014 17:45:54 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

With all the debates that we have been having lately, is it time to admit that PvE and PvP don't mix well?

This forbes article does seem to think so. It summarized lots of our concerns pretty well.

I was saying this stuff weeks ago Witty. I'm glad the media is catching up.

I also get a small chuckle out the shotgun nerf. For the life of me, I just don't understand how some people on this board kept saying shotguns weren't used that much in PvP. I seriously wonder how much Crucible these people play. Shotguns were everywhere. Just my purely anecdotal 120+ game evidence would say that 1/3 to 1/2 of all opponents were running shotties in the control game mode. I know some people love this (as shotties are underrepresented in CoD), but it was a bit ridiculous. For two reasons. One, there are about eight gun types in this game, and one of shotties representing 50% of the lobbies was a bit silly. Two, due to the exotic/legendary issue stuff, it was impossible to get a feel for what these guns could do. Did I die because he outshot me with tactics? Or did I die because I simply haven't played four days, and don't have the right weapon? Hard to say. There are (or were) fully leveled shotguns out there one shot killing from ridiculous distances.

THANK YOU. I feel like I've been yelling into the wind around here in terms of the prevalence of shotguns in PvP.

[wings]

SBMM needs to exist so I have a chance of getting my 25KD bounty request done.

[wings]

Oct 16, 2014 13:22:34 GMT -5 GodMars said:

THANK YOU. I feel like I've been yelling into the wind around here in terms of the prevalence of shotguns in PvP.

As opposed to SMGs and ARs in COD and BF?

[wittyscorpion]

Oct 16, 2014 12:29:09 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

When you getting on next Witty?

I will be on this evening. Starting time most likely post 8pm PT at the earliest, but I will be playing for extended period of time. I will also be playing a lot on Sunday as well, other times TBD.

Task list for this week:

1) need 3 more Mote of Light to get to 23, so I can buy an Exotic Engram from Xur;
2) Get as many strange coins as possible to buy stuff from Xur. I have 9 right now, and have only done the 3 coins weekly on my 23 character, and no weekly on my 2 lvl21 characters. So I can easily get 6 more by going solo. Not enough to buy an exotic weapon, but probably can buy an exotic armor;
3) I also want to get my lead lvl23 character to Vanguard Rank 2, so I can start buying legendary armor. I need 800 more reputations, which will come from a lot of grinding by doing daily, strike playlists, and partrol;
4) Ideally I want to reach the 100 Vanguard Mark limit on all 3 of my characters. Probably won't happen. I'll at least do that for my lead character;

[n1gh7]

Oct 16, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5 wings said:

SBMM needs to exist so I have a chance of getting my 25KD bounty request done.

Maybe it does, which is why you are having such a hard time. SBMM would look at win stats rather than K/D. Maybe you're a really good objective player.

[iw5000]

Oct 16, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5 wings said:

SBMM needs to exist so I have a chance of getting my 25KD bounty request done.

I did this a week ago. It turned out to be pretty easy. It's just a spread with some modifiers on top of it. It goes by in a few games.

[iw5000]

Oct 16, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5 wings said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:22:34 GMT -5 GodMars said:

THANK YOU. I feel like I've been yelling into the wind around here in terms of the prevalence of shotguns in PvP.

As opposed to SMGs and ARs in COD and BF?

Actually, Ghosts was pretty balanced. If I had to take what I felt was a fair snapshot of a typical 12 person lobby, it would look like this

- 2 snipers
- 4 smg's (most prevelant being the MTAR)
- 2 lmg (m27 with some form of tracker or thermal)
- 3 AR's
- 1 shotty

Here's what I am seeing in a Destiny lobby:

- 6 shotgun users
- 5 full auto assault rifles
- 1...mix of Sniper, Scout, Pulse, LMG, etc...


You tell me which is more diverse?

[GodMars]

Oct 16, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5 wings said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:22:34 GMT -5 GodMars said:

THANK YOU. I feel like I've been yelling into the wind around here in terms of the prevalence of shotguns in PvP.

As opposed to SMGs and ARs in COD and BF?

Tired and invalid argument is tired and invalid. TTK in CoD is wholly different than it is in Destiny. Shotguns in Destiny give the player CoD TTK in a game that is designed to have a significantly higher TTK. You can charge a player shooting at you with any weapon (outside of rockets) in Destiny if you have a shotgun and have a pretty good chance of winning. It has no counter outside of having a pretty decent amount distance between you and the shotgun user.


Edit: When faced with a corner-crouched shottie user in Destiny, you have three options: grenade, super, or die. I suppose you could just run away, as well.

[wings]

Oct 16, 2014 13:36:14 GMT -5 n1gh7 said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5 wings said:

SBMM needs to exist so I have a chance of getting my 25KD bounty request done.

Maybe it does, which is why you are having such a hard time. SBMM would look at win stats rather than K/D. Maybe you're a really good objective player.

Oct 16, 2014 13:56:45 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5 wings said:

SBMM needs to exist so I have a chance of getting my 25KD bounty request done.

I did this a week ago. It turned out to be pretty easy. It's just a spread with some modifiers on top of it. It goes by in a few games.

It was bad sarcasm. Tbh I haven't started it yet. I just got that nerfed fusion rifle done so I can accept one more Vanguard bounty. I disagree with the principle of having a KD requirement in itself as it will encourage non-objective play and hinder the player count. I wouldn't mind if it was completing x matches of Crucible though.

Oct 16, 2014 14:01:17 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5 wings said:

As opposed to SMGs and ARs in COD and BF?

Actually, Ghosts was pretty balanced. If I had to take what I felt was a fair snapshot of a typical 12 person lobby, it would look like this

- 2 snipers
- 4 smg's (most prevelant being the MTAR)
- 2 lmg (m27 with some form of tracker or thermal)
- 3 AR's
- 1 shotty

Here's what I am seeing in a Destiny lobby:

- 6 shotgun users
- 5 full auto assault rifles
- 1...mix of Sniper, Scout, Pulse, LMG, etc...


You tell me which is more diverse?

You are gimping your build if you do not use an SMG or an AR in COD. Snipers suck and you know it. They often go full retard trying to look cool while being a plague in objective game modes and the restrictions on using a sniper rifle, without a good second weapon, and mechanics associated with their uses, do not help. People overuse the niche weapons in COD because of cosmetic goodies and other reasons surrounding fun. They are not doing it strictly on utility grounds otherwise I imagine weapon diversity would be more like competitive play. I imagine sniper rifles only being a OHK to the head is making people select shotguns too. I see LMGs being overused in COD myself and they are probably my favourite weapon type. You do not need to use them in TDM but I see them being used frequently there. It can be fun picking off players who like to follow each other too closely though but then I used the SCAR in Black Ops 2 quite often for that anyway.

Oct 16, 2014 14:04:28 GMT -5 GodMars said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:24:46 GMT -5 wings said:

As opposed to SMGs and ARs in COD and BF?

Tired and invalid argument is tired and invalid. TTK in CoD is wholly different than it is in Destiny. Shotguns in Destiny give the player CoD TTK in a game that is designed to have a significantly higher TTK. You can charge a player shooting at you with any weapon (outside of rockets) in Destiny if you have a shotgun and have a pretty good chance of winning. It has no counter outside of having a pretty decent amount distance between you and the shotgun user.

Ah, TTK. You mean like the SMGs and ARs that kill super quick in COD and BF that actually negate the point of shotguns to start with? Not only that but infinite range means you don't really have to think much when it comes to choosing your engagements whilst navigating maps. I played the beta in BF4 and ended up sniping with the AK12. I don't see why that is possible. And I cannot think of a single time playing COD where I thought "hey, a shotgun would be a really good option". SMGs? Yes. If I'm too close I can dropshot going down fast as a prostitute saving my ass but a shotgun? Might even need perks and attachments to make them somewhat usable because of the lack of static hipfire etc. ARs? Yes. Even sniping sucks because the secondaries are usually dog shit and for some reason people cannot equip spawn with two primary weapons without penalty. Yes, map navigation is a good way to avoid being killed by shotguns. If you want to see a game designed with shotguns more heavily look at the maps in Gears of War to see the corridors.

What is the OHK range of shotguns anyway?

Edit: Seen your edit. So is this corner crouching thing the main reason why it is aggravating you? I seem to remember the same about the Remington in Black Ops 2.

[GodMars]

Ok, let's try this again: shotguns give players a strong advantage in Destiny because of their extremely low TTK as compared to the other weapons in the game. In CoD all weapons have a low TTK. You can't compare weapon use in the two games.

[GodMars]

Oct 16, 2014 14:34:20 GMT -5 wings said:

Oct 16, 2014 13:36:14 GMT -5 n1gh7 said:

Edit: Seen your edit. So is this corner crouching thing the main reason why it is aggravating you? I seem to remember the same about the Remington in Black Ops 2.

Don't much care about the Remmington in BO2. It's not relevant here. The problem is shotguns are a low-skill weapon with a much lower TTK than other weapons in Destiny (with the exception of rockets), an abundance of ammo, and few readily-available counters.

[n1gh7]

I was mostly kidding, but isn't the bounty KD spread, not KDR? Spread is much better to oppose tactical loitering and other crappy play styles that would result from the bounty using KDR. (Plus I'm a fan of KD spread over KDR anyways. It's a much better value to show player worth/skill)

[iw5000]

Oct 16, 2014 14:34:20 GMT -5 wings said:

Oct 16, 2014 14:01:17 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Actually, Ghosts was pretty balanced. If I had to take what I felt was a fair snapshot of a typical 12 person lobby, it would look like this

- 2 snipers
- 4 smg's (most prevelant being the MTAR)
- 2 lmg (m27 with some form of tracker or thermal)
- 3 AR's
- 1 shotty

Here's what I am seeing in a Destiny lobby:

- 6 shotgun users
- 5 full auto assault rifles
- 1...mix of Sniper, Scout, Pulse, LMG, etc...

You tell me which is more diverse?

You are gimping your build if you do not use an SMG or an AR in COD. Snipers suck and you know it. They often go full retard trying to look cool while being a plague in objective game modes and the restrictions on using a sniper rifle, without a good second weapon, and mechanics associated with their uses, do not help. People overuse the niche weapons in COD because of cosmetic goodies and other reasons surrounding fun. They are not doing it strictly on utility grounds otherwise I imagine weapon diversity would be more like competitive play. I imagine sniper rifles only being a OHK to the head is making people select shotguns too. I see LMGs being overused in COD myself and they are probably my favourite weapon type. You do not need to use them in TDM but I see them being used frequently there. It can be fun picking off players who like to follow each other too closely though but then I used the SCAR in Black Ops 2 quite often for that anyway.

You didn't ask about effectiveness, only what a typical person would probably see in the games. 'Diversity'. Don't put conditions on it. So what I said is pretty accurate. You do get a relatively more diverse appearance of weapons in a CoD Ghosts game than anything you will see in a Destiny game. Destiny PvP is pretty boring in that way.

[iw5000]

Oct 16, 2014 15:33:52 GMT -5 n1gh7 said:

I was mostly kidding, but isn't the bounty KD spread, not KDR? Spread is much better to oppose tactical loitering and other crappy play styles that would result from the bounty using KDR. (Plus I'm a fan of KD spread over KDR anyways. It's a much better value to show player worth/skill)

It's spread. I was dreading this bounty, but it was very easy. If you go 13-8, you get 5pts on your way to the 25 needed. And if you go 5-15, you don't drop ten pts. It's modified to only drop like 1pt for every 5 pt downward difference. It's easy.

[Dumien]

Bungie admits they done goofed....and they will fix it....yay.


www.bungie.net/en/News/News?aid=12295

[wittyscorpion]

Oct 17, 2014 22:26:11 GMT -5 Dumien said:

Bungie admits they done goofed....and they will fix it....yay.


www.bungie.net/en/News/News?aid=12295

As I said earlier: they will fix it soon enough.

When it comes to expectations from Bungie: stay optimistic. They are one of my most favorite game studios for good reason

[Dumien]

Oct 18, 2014 12:35:32 GMT -5 wittyscorpion said:

As I said earlier: they will fix it soon enough.

When it comes to expectations from Bungie: stay optimistic. They are one of my most favorite game studios for good reason

I'll take your word for it Witty...

This is my first experience with Bungie. Never got into Halo.

My only problem right now is that Atheon teleportation distance "bug" that was purposely programmed into the game. Honesty goes a long way for the promotion of good will.

[wittyscorpion]

Blind faith is never good, I don't have that either.

The key here is whether Bungie continues to listen to community feedback. I can't comment on the VoG changes, but if they are really stupid, it's chance for us to see whether can eventually see that, have the courage to admit that, and make a correction. Until then, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. The Raid designer did create something with very positive reception from the player community, maybe he is onto something that we can't see until we experience it.

[wings]

Oct 16, 2014 15:03:30 GMT -5 GodMars said:

Oct 16, 2014 14:34:20 GMT -5 wings said:

Don't much care about the Remmington in BO2. It's not relevant here. The problem is shotguns are a low-skill weapon with a much lower TTK than other weapons in Destiny (with the exception of rockets), an abundance of ammo, and few readily-available counters.

The most skilled weapons are sniper rifles in this game anyway. At least with shotguns you need to pick your engagements somewhat carefully compared to rifles because of their limited range and spread of the pellets. The very fast TTK in COD means shotguns are pretty much pointless to people who can actually aim. You have a game that promotes movement so shotguns should be good no? Sounds like you've been too used to COD and that is why I brought that up. Your counter to shotguns is keeping a reasonable distance so you reduce your chances of being killed by them. I wonder if the bounty system is also helping shotgun usage. Three times I've had the option of choosing the Invection shotgun with two alternatives, the Thorn and the Bad Juju. The Invection is the only choice unless you like sub par exotics, at least that is what I have read about them.

Oct 16, 2014 15:47:48 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 16, 2014 14:34:20 GMT -5 wings said:

You are gimping your build if you do not use an SMG or an AR in COD. Snipers suck and you know it. They often go full retard trying to look cool while being a plague in objective game modes and the restrictions on using a sniper rifle, without a good second weapon, and mechanics associated with their uses, do not help. People overuse the niche weapons in COD because of cosmetic goodies and other reasons surrounding fun. They are not doing it strictly on utility grounds otherwise I imagine weapon diversity would be more like competitive play. I imagine sniper rifles only being a OHK to the head is making people select shotguns too. I see LMGs being overused in COD myself and they are probably my favourite weapon type. You do not need to use them in TDM but I see them being used frequently there. It can be fun picking off players who like to follow each other too closely though but then I used the SCAR in Black Ops 2 quite often for that anyway.

You didn't ask about effectiveness, only what a typical person would probably see in the games. 'Diversity'. Don't put conditions on it. So what I said is pretty accurate. You do get a relatively more diverse appearance of weapons in a CoD Ghosts game than anything you will see in a Destiny game. Destiny PvP is pretty boring in that way.

I thought it was obvious I was referring to a wide variety of weapon classes that are competitive. I will make sure to make it more obvious next time, perhaps with use with capital letters or something. I'm aware people use non-optimal setups as I did that myself but, for the most part, I am killed by assault rifles about 80% of the time in Ghosts. I just don't see why if a different weapon class becomes much more popular then it's a problem. I would have some understanding to the criticism of the popularity of shotguns in Destiny if people did that with assault rifles in Black Ops, but I doubt anyone here did.

[GodMars]

TTK, TTK, and TTK.

[iw5000]

I am killed by assault rifles about 80% of the time in Ghosts. I just don't see why if a different weapon class becomes much more popular then it's a problem. I would have some understanding to the criticism of the popularity of shotguns in Destiny if people did that with assault rifles in Black Ops, but I doubt anyone here did.

I am not really leveling any criticism at Destiny's Crucible for the high use of shotguns. It is what it is. Just stating the reality that the Crucible is a mostly shotgun heavy FPS experience. It creates a playing environment that is not as diverse as CoD. Again, is that bad? Good? Who cares. There are enough issues with the Crucible that shotgun prevalence doesn't really need to come in regards to issues that need fixed.

I also highly doubt '80%' of your deaths are from Assault Rifles, if you had a way to look it up.

[Dumien]

Not invested in the crucible conversation, but the article I just posted confirmed that Bungie User data showed that most people use ARs in Crucible. ARs and Shotguns. You can equip both. Most people use both.

[iw5000]

Oct 20, 2014 10:58:33 GMT -5 Dumien said:

Not invested in the crucible conversation, but the article I just posted confirmed that Bungie User data showed that most people use ARs in Crucible. ARs and Shotguns. You can equip both. Most people use both.

Well yeah, you have to use both. Their user data is saying nothing, isn't it? (I just read it again). It's not like CoD, where you mostly have to pick one or the other.