wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 19, 2014 8:39:36 GMT -5
One complaint we have been having is the lack of transparency about how the combat sandbox works. For example, we only get the Attack number in numeric values, while the other stats are only in "bar" format. Well, we no longer need to whine about  , these numbers can be found on www.destinytracker.comThere are two ways to get to it: 1) Start with a player's (yourself, or that "OP" guy who keeps killing you in a Crucible match) PSN-ID / XBL-GT, find him on Destiny Tracker, then examine the weapons the loadout (note: make sure to click "update stats" to refresh first); 2) Go to DestinyTracker DB ( db.destinytracker.com ) -> Inventory Buckets and find the weapons that you want to get stats for; |
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wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 19, 2014 8:53:40 GMT -5
For example, let's say you want to compare the blue "Shingen-E' with the exotic "Suro Regime", both Auoto R: Shingen-E: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/3074762910RoF: 88 Impact: 9 Range: 20 Stability: 69 Reload: 58 Magazine: 34 Suro Regime: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/119482465RoF: 77 Impact: 28 Range: 40 Stability: 82 Reload: 65 Magazine: 33 You will see why Suro is the weapon of choice . Besides almost the same mag size and slower RoF (which makes it more accurate), Suro is much stronger in every other department, even before any upgrade. Shingen-E will get destroyed by Suro on Crucible. I got a legendary AutoR this week, Grim Citizen III: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/1146059647 . How does it stack up against Suro? RoF: 77 Impact: 28 Range: 42 Stability: 39 Reload: 65 Magazine: 26 With everything else almost the same, Suro has much higher stability. Grim does have one upgrade "Perfect Balance" yielding "extremely low recoil", may be enough to offset that. Suro counters with "Focused Fire" to yield "slower RoF with more damage" and Hammer Forged" to make it even more accurate, no wonder it is the king of AutoR at the moment. Grim is weaker in 1-on-1 combat, the consolation is that it has "Third Eye" to enable Radar during ADS. Also, Grim being legendary can give you the extra flexibility of having an exotic special (say Invective or Ice Breaker) or heavy (say Truth). Not a bad choice at all for Crucible. |
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Post by GodMars on Oct 19, 2014 12:00:27 GMT -5
For example, let's say you want to compare the blue "Shingen-E' with the exotic "Suro Regime", both Auoto R: Shingen-E: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/3074762910RoF: 88 Impact: 9 Range: 20 Stability: 69 Reload: 58 Magazine: 34 Suro Regime: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/119482465RoF: 77 Impact: 28 Range: 40 Stability: 82 Reload: 65 Magazine: 33 You will see why Suro is the weapon of choice . Besides almost the same mag size and slower RoF (which makes it more accurate), Suro is much stronger in every other department, even before any upgrade. Shingen-E will get destroyed by Suro on Crucible. I got a legendary AutoR this week, Grim Citizen III: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/1146059647 . How does it stack up against Suro? RoF: 77 Impact: 28 Range: 42 Stability: 39 Reload: 65 Magazine: 26 With everything else almost the same, Suro has much higher stability. Grim does have one upgrade "Perfect Balance" yielding "extremely low recoil", may be enough to offset that. Suro counters with "Focused Fire" to yield "slower RoF with more damage" and Hammer Forged" to make it even more accurate, no wonder it is the king of AutoR at the moment. Grim is weaker in 1-on-1 combat, the consolation is that it has "Third Eye" to enable Radar during ADS. Also, Grim being legendary can give you the extra flexibility of having an exotic special (say Invective or Ice Breaker) or heavy (say Truth). Not a bad choice at all for Crucible. Your Grim Citizen cannot be bought from the vendor. You can't compare the upgrades on yours to what is readily available. |
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markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
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Post by markopolo on Oct 20, 2014 10:25:37 GMT -5
Hey... no trashing my ShinGen Baby!
I love that gun. I've used it so much in the Cosmodrome, it speaks russian when I shoot them dead!
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wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 20, 2014 12:33:42 GMT -5
In other threads Shadow Price is brought up to compare with Suro & Grim. Let's see: Shadow Price: db.destinytracker.com/inventory/item/1338746190RoF: 77 Impact: 28 Range: 37 Stability: 56 Reload: 68 Magazine: 25 Very similar number in RoF/Impact/Range, less recoil than Grim (pre talent upgrade), more recoil than Suro. It's accuracy talent is "Persistence" - grows more accurate the longer it is fired. My guess: comparable to Grim after both are fully upgraded, Shadow Price is likely stronger due to its accuracy. Suro beats both because of its better accuracy compounded with "Focus Fire". |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 21, 2014 8:08:57 GMT -5
Here is a list of all the Auto Rifles in Destiny. From Commmon, to Uncommon, to Rare, to Legendary, to Exotic.this list does not include the Scout, Pulse, Fusion, Hand, Sniper, LMG's, or Shotties)I personally think the most interesting way to view the Auto Rifles is to break them down on the basis of Rate of Fire, Rounds per Minute. You have a 400rpm, 600rpm, & 800 rpm Auto Rifles broken down on the list ( NOTE - I need to double check the 400/600 rates again) These rounds per minute correspond to a numeric rating of 77, 88 and 100 for the rifles. That's probably the easiest way to break down the different types. High, medium and low rate of fire. This is also the opening 'weak' gun the game gives all characters, the Khostov. That has some terrible rate of fire below 400. My testing I know from personal experience, it's very hard to use the 800rpm rifles in Crucible. I have a full leveled up Hex Castor that just jumps around with crazy recoil. Speaking for myself, I would say a 'Stability' measure of '21' means pretty much uselessness in terms of control, at least beyond 20 meters. Being that it is fully leveled up legendary, I do think it gets some bonus points to it's recoil (can't recall), but there seems to be no way of quantifying how much these skill/bonus leveling tree factors are. My best success in the Crucible has come from the low rate of fire Rifles (77 rating). I was using the Khostov at first, as I had no choice. Then a combo of the Galahad B and Shingen C. Then I noticed a small jump in doing better, when switching to the Galahad E. That was my go-to gun for a while. But without a doubt, my best success has come with the legendary Shadow Price. That is my current best gun I own. (I don't have the Suros Regime) I don't really think it can be argued that the guns can make a difference. My slight improvements in Crucible playing were probably largely influenced by better map/spawn knowledge. But having better guns can't hurt. The Shadow Price has much better range and recoil control than the Galahad E, as well as slightly better reload speed. How can that not help? It probably changes the outcome of two to three encounters per game in the Crucible. Rather than going say 10-10 in a control match, it enables me to go 11-9, or 12-8. Likewise, ...I can see where switching to the Suros Regime would up my game quite a bit. I am at a solid competitive disadvantage to people using this gun. The Suros Regime has a huge recoil/control advantage over my Shadow Price, as well as 8 extra bullets to use. Again, I would have to think this would be extremely helpful in two to three encounters per game. Instead of going say 12-8, I might be able to go 13-7 or 14-6. That is a difference maker. This is a problem with Destiny. People who log in huge levels of playtime get the map/spawn skill advantage from their playtime. This is fair, as that comes with experience, and it also has a ceiling to it. After so many runs on a map, (15, 20, etc..) a person will know it and things equalize. But the guns? Not everyone in this gun has access to guns like the Suros Regime (and other exotics). I have close to four days played and have not got it yet. How is this fair? No amount of unlocking will get it for me either. I am at the mercy of Destiny's idiotic luck code. This puts me at a solid competitive disadvantage to people who have the Suros, as well as (even more so) to guns like the Vex Mythoclast. This is ultimately why Destiny's Crucible is a complete failure (one of a couple of reasons)   
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markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
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Post by markopolo on Oct 21, 2014 8:34:11 GMT -5
awesome... thanks IW
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Oct 21, 2014 9:33:44 GMT -5
Good info! how did you find out the rate of fire is 400/600/800? I have been looking for that info for a while. Thnx It is clear though that the bars and their values are not comparable. What I mean by that is that 77/88/100 and 400/600/800 are not the same relation. (77/100 = 0.77, while 400/800 is 0.5!) So the fast ROF rifles actually shoot twice the rate compared to the slow ROF rifles! Now we need the damage values in crusible, and we can start to really compare weapons From what I remember, dr Nope does slighly more damage then halve the damage of the shadow price, which would result in a higher DPs(econd)! Also, I have found a dr Nope out of an engram with higher stability the longer you fire, AND another stability upgrade. And the recoil is really not that bad! I might even prever it in PvE to the shadow price, not sure yet. Also, I have tried the suros regime in crusible on one of my friends profile, and I surely prefer the shadow price!! The ROF is so slow that if you miss one shot, you will almost always lose the firefight against a decent opponent. Really the only upside I can see is the health regeneration. Which is awesome for killing multiple enemies after each other. Before we translate the bars to real in game values, I don't think we can really compare the weapons based on these bars. I am really looking forward to find a hard light! A ROF like the shinzen, but with a 40 round mag! The next step is finding out how much HP players in the crusible have. As it is dependent from your armour value (not the one on your equipment, but the one in your class upgrades) we might have to check several settings. p.s. one other thing comes to mind: Do you guys think ROF is dependent of frame rate again? in that case the 600 ROF will probably have the most advantage in that 'category' Other then that, I constantly hear ppl complaining gun x is to strong, but I also constantly hear ppl complaining that gun x does not give them any benefit over gun y, while gun x was a b*tch to unlock. I think destiny choose a nice middle ground the way they did. A shadow price is most likely better then a random galahad E, but not by much. It has slightly more range and different upgrades, not perse stronger ones. I have a galahad with slightly less stability then the shadow price, but with 5 more rounds in the magazine! sounds like a fair tradeoff to me. The shadow price is better in most cases, but surely not in all cases! Don't forget you are playing a RPG, which also includes some multiplayer with small level advantages, instead of an multiplayer game, with some bullshit single player (COD). And RPG with a mulitplayer mode where level advantages/gear does completely nothing, would have been a bigger fail IMHO |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 21, 2014 9:43:29 GMT -5
Good info! how did you find out the rate of fire is 400/600/800? I have been looking for that info for a while. Thnx I simply fired a whole clip of bullets and measured the length of time it took. Then worked out the rate. I know the HexCastor was like 820 or so? The 400/600...I need to double check them. It's not hard to figure out. Don't quote me on those. The 400 rate might have been for another gun. I need to double check them again. But anyone can do it. Find a 77 gun. Time how long it takes to fire out it's clip. Divide. There's your fire rate. Can someone double check that? The Shadow Price fires at the same as the Suros Regime. At least the stats say they are equal. Agree. I mentioned that before, it is hard to measure out how these upgrades affect the base stats. It seems the Exotics/Legendaries have more upgrading, so it would, for the most part, typically benefit those guns the most all things equal. That is, the 'gap' will get larger. |
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Oct 21, 2014 9:52:00 GMT -5
The Suros regime cute its ROF in halve when you ADS. Although in increases your damage, I don't know if it is enough. Also, lower ROF means less flinch (although higher damage might also mean more flinch, we really need some hard data ) |
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Oct 21, 2014 10:36:21 GMT -5
some additional info:
77 category: The galahad does 22 body shot damage and 32 headshot damage.
88 category: The Shinzen does 16 body shot damage and 24 headshot damage.
100 category: The drNope does 11 body shot damage and 16 headhot damage.
Got it out of these two youtube video's.
I think it is safe to assume they do the same damage as the legendary versions of the guns, part for some upgrades like glass half full.
I also found a very good video about ROF, but I don't have the time right now to get all the hard data out of it.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 21, 2014 13:24:47 GMT -5
Didn't have time to watch the above videos, but damage is tricky. From what I have read, there are four types of damage models out there....
1. Gun damage model in PvP - Opponents have 97 health, with 97 shield health. A total of 194. Or at least a baseline close to that. Some Titan models might have slightly higher potential base health, maybe around 215. This base health depends on your subclass settings, configuring your armor/speed/agility settings. Gun damage models closely follow the impact setting, RoF vs Damage/impact. Lv 4 does the same damage as a Lv 28.
2. Gun damage model in PvE (Character Level = Alien Level) - These are the base stats, upon which things calculate off of.
3. Gun damage model in PvE (Character Level > Alien Level) - If you are a level 24 character shooting Lv 23 or lower PvE opponents, your damage models are reduced/scaled down as your opponents levels go lower. This is done so as not to over-power lower level missions. This also enables a Lv 24 person to play with a level 7 person, better co-play. While your damage on your gun is scaled down to a damage model closer to the level of the PvE opponents...you will still do more damage that your Lv 7 friend.
4. Gun damage model in PvE (Character Level < Alien Level) - in this situation, your character's gun type damage is reduced by a percentage, for every level you are below your PvE opponent. If you are one level below (eg; Lv 24 shooting at Lv 25), your damage is reduced by 25%. Two levels below, damage is reduced by 50%. Three levels below, 67%. Four levels below, it would appear that you cannot do any damage to your PvE opponent. From the little I have read, you can offset some of the above damage reduction by using a fully leveled up Exotic/Legendary gun. To give say a Lv 25 character the power of a say a lv 26 character.
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I am not 100% sure the above is correct, but that's what I think I am hearing.
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, these numbers can be found on www.destinytracker.com
