tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jul 19, 2016 16:57:48 GMT -5
huh, i downloaded the patch yesterday as a preload
servers also crashed earlier but seems they got it smoothed now
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 3:32:15 GMT -5
Oh no. More snipers. How terrible. Also Overwatch is much easier to spectate when it's just one guy's POV. I've been watching dozens of Stream replays on YouTube after not being able to find any TF2 Highlander.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jul 22, 2016 8:05:53 GMT -5
anas hardly a sniper, gotta be real up close to be of any use. Shes fun
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 12:53:04 GMT -5
Did Tracer get buffed recently? For a character that takes so much execution to play I wouldn't be surprised if she eventually became at least a little viable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 18:22:54 GMT -5
but also generally results in a lower damage output. Not against tanks- that's for sure. I suppose you're right, but I always thought that move was more for the lower levels. Without duplicates it'll more than likely prevent 3 Widowmaker setups, and nudge people to widen their comfort zone. Hopefully, that is- I don't think anyone has ever rage quit because they couldn't play their favourite class. Also Overwatch comics. comic.playoverwatch.com/en-us/mccree-train-hopper
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2016 19:14:59 GMT -5
Oh yeah- that's also pretty annoying.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 24, 2016 4:01:49 GMT -5
Lucio's upgraded wallrun combined with smaller hitboxes are going to be hell on consoles.
I also feel the reduction in hitboxes is reducing the impact of Tjorb nerf. Personally I hope they will have different hitboxes on console at some time.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 26, 2016 7:24:54 GMT -5
Seems like the competitive teams are using lucio + zen as their healers, even on payload maps. Personally I expected it to be mercy + zen/lucio for payload maps and lucio + zen/mercy on KotH maps.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 14:54:23 GMT -5
Less Mercy is not the worst thing in the world, and I'd go as far to argue her design is lacking something. Her abilities focus around healing players, yet her ult is optimally used when everyone on her team rapidly dies in succession. Mercy without an ult is incentivized to heal people, Mercy with an ult is not.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jul 26, 2016 15:51:40 GMT -5
everyoned have a good butt in that suit, it accentuates the bottom quite heavily and the cloth makes it looks much bigger than it is
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 26, 2016 18:23:57 GMT -5
Given that her core role is to heal, it makes sense that that the team can take a bit of a hit to total healing output in favor of a now more capable damage dealing, versatile Zenyatta. Mercy is now effectively the most squishy of the Support heroes, if not all heroes by means of ability, and least effective by means of not being able to do more than one thing at a time.
Lucio has persistent self-healing out to 30m, high mobility, speed advantage, powerful knockback and ranged attack, almost all of which can be used simultaneously. Zenyatta is now strong enough to hold out in a fight while also healing an ally, debuffing an enemy out to 30m and benefiting from the same rate of self-healing as Mercy (20/sec after 3 seconds) for his shields. Ana with the infinite range, heal grenade, a sort-of infinite range Flashbang that everyone on the team can prepare to take advantage of and an Ult with extreme effectiveness.
Meanwhile Mercy has Healing out to 10m OR Damage Boost out to 10m OR Blaster. She can only do one of those at a time, and among the Supports, she's not / no longer the best at any of them.
I feared that Zenyatta was encroaching on Mercy's role since he lost his Beta style, which is why he was obsolete before this patch. All it took was a bit of number tweaking and he's now better than her at two of the things she does, damage boosting and dealing damage. Not only can he do both better, he can do both at the same time. In being able to do all three things at once, his slightly weaker healing is of no consequence. The team can sacrifice a mere 20hp/sec healing for an additional potential 200 damage per second.
While it should always be obvious, the weekly reports of pro team usage are evidence that raw "damage in, damage out" value beats any other tactic. Offense heroes top the charts alongside the strongest healers and Tanks, while ancillary Support and Defense heroes are almost nonexistent.
Mercy's butt may be top tier, however her effectiveness in combat is more important. She's not versatile enough, focusing on being a pure healer doesn't fly.
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 26, 2016 20:15:25 GMT -5
Persistent? Mercy's health is really just 200 Shields. It has the same 3 second delay with 20HP/sec healing just like Zenyatta or Zarya or Symmetra or whomever else has some blue health. Mercy's just appears all white.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 20:27:50 GMT -5
Well there you have it- Mercy is an Archon.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 27, 2016 9:29:35 GMT -5
Mercy is definitely easier to keep alive due to her mobility inside a competitive team compared to zen, I agree. Zen does give out a lot of damage on his own though, making flankers less of a problem in a different way.
I am curious what the MCree nerf will do. I hope they find a balance between soldier and mcree, (50/50 pick) once that happens I hypothesize that zen will be less common (but still used) and in return some tanks can make it back in (like roadhog).
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jul 28, 2016 11:50:54 GMT -5
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the defence category, it's just a label after all. Just like how Roadhog ain't exactly top contender for tank, but rather just a pick-off class that happens to be fat In fact, both Hanzo and Widow are better geared for the offensive side on A/D maps because of the way they use sightlines imo
Hanzo has strong abilities, if he gets higher projectile velocity (maybe a bit less drop too) he's a super viable DPS alternative
Widow still has situational use, but she's perhaps a bit too clunky to keep up with the pace. She really only needs a tiny buff(s) to be relevant enough again. Mid-range hitscan nerfs on McCree and Soldier also help her
Bastion would be pretty decent, but he has too many checks to offset his insane dps for the tourit mode (slow swapping times, high spread, severe falloff, only decent at best gun on recon, big hitbox in both modes and for some freaking reason, the longest exiting animation for his tank ult). Small buffs and meta changes would make him servicable enough to be played when faced against tanks
Junkrat should've been a lot better with Pharah gone, but he saw very little play even on the spam maps he's supposed to be good at. I don't nearly play enough Junkrat to say what this guy needs but apparently he does need something
Tjorborn still is okay, DVA being strong just Foxtrots him. I do think its a bit too easy to snowball on a Tjorborn as his setup time is very long. Maybe change the level 1 turret into low dmg, low(er) health super fast build-up speed and increase the cooldown? Mini-sentry style
And Mei's a mess of course. She doesn't need a complete rework, but she does need severe tweaking with her kit. Right now all she's good for is freezing dvas and being a discount mccree
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 28, 2016 21:25:42 GMT -5
McCree's range nerf is nothing compared to the improvement to Flash and Fan. He's going to continue to make Roadhog, 76, Pharah, the entire Defense list (already useless) completely obsolete. Roadhog will plummet to low-use again, his niche taken once more and his second-squishiest tank status not enough to give him an edge, especially with his crap Ultimate.
Ana's buff may make her a McCree-lite with long range damage, extreme healing power and a stun that the entire team can take advantage of. A cowboy, a Buddhist and a granny walk in to a bar.
Meanwhile, for the same reason I mentioned before, Mercy is going to drop down to nothing. With Pharah permanently grounded by McCree and Zenyatta, Mercy has no anchor to fly to. While Ana can combo her abilities together in quick succession, Mercy is the weakest, most limited, one-at-a-time hero. Mercy's Guardian Angel and gliding are far from fast or effective. The former is dependent on chance, ideal placement of allies letting her fall back to a safe spot (rare). For Mercy to compete with now three versatile Healers, she needs an equal degree of versatility... that 50% damage boost in PTR really would have helped. Alternatively, I'd really like to see Mercy able to heal and shoot at the same time. Or make Caduceus Staff a one-beam stick. Healing and Damage Boost in one. That could give her a more unique role, focusing on being a pocket booster for one hero during a charge. Or make Guardian Angel a free ability that boosts her straight forward rather than an ally-targeting one. OR give Mercy an actual E Ability. OR give her persistent healing like Mousey thought Mercy had. Or increase her short as hell healing range to compete with the others with 30+ meter ranges. Or change her pistol into one that can also heal allies, whatever, something.
I think this week has Foxtroted the meta picking up the most. For the previous month it was a mostly balanced distribution of Offense (except McCree), Tank and Lucio/Mercy. Usually a 2:2:2 between roles. Now almost the entire Offense and all of the Defense roster are benched. It's McCree (again), Tanks and Lucio/Zenyatta with possible Ana making it a 1 Offense, 2 Tank, 3 Support split, and the occasional Reaper showing up in CQC scenarios.
As for the Defense heroes, they're all done for. Snipers (and even many other heroes who were already suffering from low usage) especially are worthless thanks to the hitbox change. They'd all have to get dramatic changes to compete with the select few heroes who are optimal for the game's "all about damage" meta.
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 28, 2016 21:57:29 GMT -5
Hopefully their "working on new game modes" is what can give the roster's damage-focused meta a kick in the pants. Although with each new game mode, they'll have to screw with the balance to make each new mode's nuances work in a balanced way.
Also nerf Lucio already, gosh darn golly gee whiz it. He's not even "overpowered" but he is so critical to a team that he's an almost mandatory pick anyway. That kind of necessity is not good. If one team has Speed and the other does not, the other is comparatively severely crippled.
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Post by blackbarney on Jul 29, 2016 13:56:07 GMT -5
McCree's range nerf is nothing compared to the improvement to Flash and Fan. He's going to continue to make Roadhog, 76, Pharah, the entire Defense list (already useless) completely obsolete. Roadhog will plummet to low-use again, his niche taken once more and his second-squishiest tank status not enough to give him an edge, especially with his crap Ultimate. ... It's McCree (again), Tanks and Lucio/Zenyatta with possible Ana making it a 1 Offense, 2 Tank, 3 Support split, and the occasional Reaper showing up in CQC scenarios. . First of, thanks for this detailed analysis, it's why I come here When you say McCree is going to make Roadhog & co obsolete, do you mean because he counters them (can't be that cuz Roadhog OHK's McCree in hook range) or because, on a relative basis, there's no reason to take any of those guys because you can pick McCree instead? On your second point, you seem to be saying that the ideal team will be Mcree, 2xTank, Lucio, Zen, Ana. This really surprises me since I'm not seeing pros play Ana at all. Are you making a blanket prediction post-the-next-patch? Thanks for the clarifications. Loving this game and I'm loving reading the discourse here on the game as well. I'm glad I left Halo V for this.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Jul 29, 2016 14:19:37 GMT -5
When the FTH + flash combo was an instakill on eveything, Roadhog was pretty obselete. This time, I don't think Roadhog will be completely obselete this time and if he will, it's because of zen + mccree and not just mccree (because discord naturally dicks over roadhog). Roadhog is still pretty good at disabling other tanks, and one of the few reliable options vs DVA
Ana is super weird and hard to predict. In theory she looks super good on paper (best in-class healing, now along with decent DPS and strong utility abilities) but it's hard to say if people are too reluctant to run her or if she's actually just too weak for the difficulty of implementing her in a team. Regardless, if you look at the leaderboards on PC at the top 1-100 you see quite alot of Ana play so she's definitely good enough for pubs
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Den
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Post by Den on Jul 30, 2016 13:09:31 GMT -5
First of, thanks for this detailed analysis, it's why I come here :) When you say McCree is going to make Roadhog & co obsolete, do you mean because he counters them...? On your second point, you seem to be saying that the ideal team will be Mcree, 2xTank, Lucio, Zen, Ana. This really surprises me since I'm not seeing pros play Ana at all. Are you making a blanket prediction post-the-next-patch? Thanks for the clarifications. Loving this game and I'm loving reading the discourse here on the game as well. I'm glad I left Halo V for this. McCree and Roadhog fulfill nearly the same role, picking off high value targets by means of a stun combo to get an almost guaranteed kill against 150-200 health heroes. When McCree was nerfed before, losing his mid-long range effectiveness and Flash+Fan being rendered useless, Roadhog soared in use because he was then the "better McCree". Now that McCree's range has been changed once more, and Flash + Fan has been improved as well, McCree dominates again both within and beyond Hog's range. It's an unfortunate effect, but the two overlap so much that one will take the stage and the other will be benched. The latest reports of pro player usage is before McCree's reactionary range nerf (and flash buff), so McCree may end up taken down a peg. While McCree still grounds Pharah, 76 probably gained back some of his edge at mid range. With help from Zenyatta's Harmony, Genji has become quite common. The 123 split is more of an extreme prediction depending on how the pro teams adapt to Ana and just how McCree's change influences things. In the PTR, Ana wasn't looked at favorably because Zen and McCree took the spotlight. In the next week or two, Ana's place will be more solidified, could be in or out, just like how there's a split between teams sticking with Mercy and those jumping to Zenyatta. Given Ana's not nearly as effective close range effectiveness as Zenyatta, she will likely be map-situational, for the few long sightlines on the Attack side. However, if pros do take to Ana given these latest changes in Live, I'd expect it would be because Ana and McCree AND Zenyatta would make for a devastating trio. Throw on Lucio and you have two massive damage dealers (Cree and Zen), two heroes with the ability to stun (Cree and Ana), all moving around at the speed of sound and stacking on healing from everywhere. Toss in Zarya and you have the stalemate breaker and another damage dealer. Finish the team off with Genji or D.va backed by Harmony and they will flank and harass with extreme prejudice. Swap in/out Reaper, 76, Winston, Reinhardt, a few others when applicable. That is an "ideal" in which the players involved are landing all of their shots, including Ana's all or nothing projectile sleep dart that would likely easily miss often. That sort of risk really won't hold out over reliable tactics, so the 123 will be a niche situational thing that we really won't see a lot of. The standard will still be a 222 or 312 for better raw damage output in most situations.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Aug 1, 2016 15:40:01 GMT -5
In terms of Mercy, the issue with her is that they gave her and Zenyatta what should have been each others' ults. Mercy should be on the front lines, switching between characters and giving healing, and if multiple players start taking too much damage she should be able to ult and give a big group heal. Zenyatta should be hanging behind the action, marking targets with orbs, and giving the group resurrection if too many players are down in front of him.
I think there are some differences on console from what you guys are saying. I don't see a lot of McCree usage atm, and I don't think he's a better counter to Pharah than Roadhog. Miss some shots as McCree and you're probably dead, but miss your hook and you should survive, and she still doesn't want to land anywhere near you.
I don't see how Ana will be good post-buff. If someone were to play her focused only on healing, they wouldn't be better off than if they had just picked Mercy. If someone wants to multitask, they would be better of with Zenyatta.
Junkrat definitely sees a lot of usage on PS4, and quite frankly, I'm sick of him. He's a conglomeration of the most annoying things in COD history.
D.va feels a little too powerful now. I like that you can quickly toggle the shield without waiting ten seconds, but there's no real consequence for using it constantly, and you can save teammates that are pushed up so far they really don't deserve to be saved. I don't have a problem with there being little consequence for using it constantly on it's own, but that's what Reinhardt is for, and players have to be behind his shield to be saved. I don't have a problem with shields saving teammates that don't deserve to be saved, but that's what Zarya is for, and at this point it seems like D.va does that better than her as well. As it stands, players can just toss up the shield whenever they see or hear an attack that does decent damage without thinking twice. I'd slightly lower the shield duration and slightly increase the recharge time to require a little more thought/skill behind using them.
I find the hardest characters to counter are Reaper and anyone half decent with Pharah. The snipers are weak and generally not chosen in competitive.
For Mei, what if her alternate fire had a freezing effect? Obviously, not a one shot freeze, but if it did perhaps 50%, so you could alt-fire and then give a quick hose down to freeze someone, it would make someone with good aim be able to counter some fast moving characters the way McCree's flashbang can. They could also make the freeze percentage linear with enemy health if that was too powerful against tanks, so if it did say 50% against 200 health characters, it only did 25% against 400 health characters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 16:28:09 GMT -5
I find the hardest characters to counter are Reaper and anyone half decent with Pharah. The snipers are weak and generally not chosen in competitive. Reaper can now be hard countered by picking Mcree, because Mcree's buffed flash + FTH combo now kills Reaper before he has a chance to go Wraith mode. All hitscan heroes/Zenyetta kill Pharaoh fast if you have a decent aim. Most notably Mcree is good at this.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Aug 1, 2016 16:50:56 GMT -5
I'd say my aim is decent, but I'm definitely not confident in my ability to consistently win a 1v1 vs a Pharah with a McCree. Soldier is my go to choice. Past that, Tracer isn't a viable choice for countering a Pharah; Widowmaker and Ana simply aren't strong enough to be viable choices; and I'm not sure you could consistently use a Bastion to effectively counter a Pharah.
As for using McCree against a Reaper - while that may certainly work in 1v1, McCree lacks the mobility and health to get close enough to single Reaper out in a crowd, and so I don't know how that would be an effective counter in a gametype like KoH.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Aug 1, 2016 16:58:50 GMT -5
FTH+flash combo is only enough to kill 200 hp I think actually
also winston is bae
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 17:07:34 GMT -5
I'd say my aim is decent, but I'm definitely not confident in my ability to consistently win a 1v1 vs a Pharah with a McCree. Soldier is my go to choice. Past that, Tracer isn't a viable choice for countering a Pharah; Widowmaker and Ana simply aren't strong enough to be viable choices; and I'm not sure you could consistently use a Bastion to effectively counter a Pharah. As for using McCree against a Reaper - while that may certainly work in 1v1, McCree lacks the mobility and health to get close enough to single Reaper out in a crowd, and so I don't know how that would be an effective counter in a gametype like KoH. Well, Reaper is kinda hard to kill in KoH mode because he excels at that mode. I usually just pick also Reaper and try to go after the enemy Reaper while my teammates distract/gank him. In other gamemodes, Reapers tend to wander, so I use mcree to counter them there. FTH+flash combo is only enough to kill 200 hp I think actually also winston is bae 6 x 45dmg (FTH) + 25dmg (Stun) = 305 dmg. Assuming 5 bullets hit, it still does 260 damage which kills Reaper.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Aug 2, 2016 9:56:31 GMT -5
FTH was 6 rounds/s before, and buffed to fire 15% faster according to notes. So let's assume 0.85s to unload now
that means you fire 5 rounds in 0.68s. Stun time is 0.7s. The recovery animation, while fast, prevents you from firing instantly. Timing is super strict so I don't think you can reliably take him down at all unless he's chipped by something
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Den
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Post by Den on Aug 2, 2016 21:16:34 GMT -5
THE RECKONING WILL COME BLIZZARD HAS STARTED WORLD WAR 3 WITH THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS THEY HAVE WRONGED THE CHEATERS WHO HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO RUIN THE GAME FOR EVERYONE ELSE
Also, Mercy is totally out. It's all Lucio/Zenyatta now. McCree is still in. Pharah is still grounded. This is so far the worst the balance has been when it comes to looking at pro-level match statistics. So many characters with almost 0% usage. This time it's not just the Defense heroes (and they seem to have gotten worse), but half of the Offense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 22:32:03 GMT -5
Comic Sans in a non-comic? I'm surprised he hasn't been banned from the forum over that.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Aug 3, 2016 5:21:32 GMT -5
THE RECKONING WILL COME BLIZZARD HAS STARTED WORLD WAR 3 WITH THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS THEY HAVE WRONGED THE CHEATERS WHO HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO RUIN THE GAME FOR EVERYONE ELSE Also, Mercy is totally out. It's all Lucio/Zenyatta now. McCree is still in. Pharah is still grounded. This is so far the worst the balance has been when it comes to looking at pro-level match statistics. So many characters with almost 0% usage. This time it's not just the Defense heroes (and they seem to have gotten worse), but half of the Offense. Is it really though? The match I watched last night I saw a mei, a junkrat and a soldier (LG vs C9). It is definitely "worse" compared to the previous status quo (before ana), but I think it is better than the first (release) meta, where McCree and Widow did prevent Pharah and soldier just as much as now, and mercy was in but zen never. I feel like they need to slightly nerf McCree's range again, just to make him on par with soldier. Once that happens Pharah might come out to play again once in a while, which will automatically give mercy a small boost. As for the defense heroes, I think Junkrat is slowly getting back into the meta for some specific choke points, widow and hanzo need (Very) small buffs. And to be honest, the dwarf, the robot and Foxtroting Mei are in the right place right now IMHO. They are okay for shits and giggles and are already dominating low level play enough as is. edit: the cheaters are too bloody funny, how can they feel cheated? Are they really this tunnel visioned? Do they really lack all possible empathy to see that other players might be having a good time? Have they been doing this so long that they have no clue anymore? I really cannot see how they can get like this...
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Aug 3, 2016 10:09:52 GMT -5
Mei is actually godlike on hanamura defence. I wish the wall was less finnicky though
poor tjorbi lost his animation cancel trick rip
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