eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Jan 7, 2015 19:29:51 GMT -5
You can use thruster pack while in mid air to get a kind of "blink" double jump kind of movement however it only moves you on the horizontal... So if you're at the right height but need to travel sideways or forward more to make a jump, it's a good option. Also, you can activate ground pound to give you some additional height and a sort of hover sideways sort of thing. And, if you are in the ground pound mode and you clamber, you don't get the weapon down thing where you can't shoot so you'll be able to fire right away. These things combined with clamber can give you a significant amount of movement options, although they are harder to execute than in other games. Yeah, I use the Thruster mechanic quite often in that manner when I'm playing with either Fishstick or Green Thumb due to it being moved to a bumper button on the controller, but for those extended distance jumps you really need something that can re-raise your altitude some and that's where I thought a double jump-like mechanic could fit-in nicely (I haven't tried using the Ground Pound mechanic as you suggest to gain a little extra altitude, but with the mechanic being moved to the "B" button it's not something that I would consider doing fluidly while on the move since it would require taking my hand off the right stick); however, the more I think about it I'm not sure a double jump could be implemented as seamlessly as I initially thought it could due to the clamber function options provided to players by 343i for customization (ie. the ability to alter whether or not you can maintain holding the jump button for an automatic clamber action or requiring a timed button press when in contact with a ledge). The clamber mechanic I think might cause or create some issues with trying to incorporate a double jump mechanic since they'd be overlapped on the same button scripting. It could just be something where plenty of play-testing could determine whether or not it would be a potential add down the road - like maybe for Halo 6. |
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 7, 2015 19:38:06 GMT -5
You can use thruster pack while in mid air to get a kind of "blink" double jump kind of movement however it only moves you on the horizontal... So if you're at the right height but need to travel sideways or forward more to make a jump, it's a good option. Also, you can activate ground pound to give you some additional height and a sort of hover sideways sort of thing. And, if you are in the ground pound mode and you clamber, you don't get the weapon down thing where you can't shoot so you'll be able to fire right away. These things combined with clamber can give you a significant amount of movement options, although they are harder to execute than in other games. Yeah, I use the Thruster mechanic quite often in that manner when I'm playing with either Fishstick or Green Thumb due to it being moved to a bumper button on the controller, but for those extended distance jumps you really need something that can re-raise your altitude some and that's where I thought a double jump-like mechanic could fit-in nicely (I haven't tried using the Ground Pound mechanic as you suggest to gain a little extra altitude, but with the mechanic being moved to the "B" button it's not something that I would consider doing fluidly while on the move since it would require taking my hand off the right stick); however, the more I think about it I'm not sure a double jump could be implemented as seamlessly as I initially thought it could due to the clamber function options provided to players by 343i for customization (ie. the ability to alter whether or not you can maintain holding the jump button for an automatic clamber action or requiring a timed button press when in contact with a ledge). The clamber mechanic I think might cause or create some issues with trying to incorporate a double jump mechanic since they'd be overlapped on the same button scripting. I play with recon/claw so yeah, some of those movement might not be reasonable for you to use. The extra altitude with ground pound is just like a crouch jump and the sideways movement is like the hover mechanic in destiny. I had a game where half the enemy team left so I spent the game trying all kinds of jumps on the remix of truth map and found that a lot of routes between platforms are possible to make with the right jumping/sprinting/ground pound/thruster/clamber combination. But I agree that adding a double jump with make things feel too cluttered. I already feel like half of the buttons have more than 1 use based on contextual situations and it's too much. I forget to use all the new stuff they added all the time. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 7, 2015 20:21:12 GMT -5
For bros who have played H5 beta, what's your opinion on sprint? a) Sprint is the source of all evil and should never been included in any game with "Halo" in the title; b) Sprint is good to have for offensive purposes, but should not be allowed as an escape option. It should only be enabled for players who have full shield; c) Sprint is now a signature of modern day shooters, and should be part of Halo. Using it for escape presents an interesting cat-and-mouse mini-game; The reason why I ask is because this seems to be the biggest H5 beta debate among halo fans. While almost everybody are saying positive things about thrust, and the majority are fine or neutral with "Smart Link" (aka ADS), many are against sprint. I don't have a strong opinion any more, fine with all 3. On the one hand, I can live in a sprint-less world where the only way out of a gun fight is to either kill the opponent or be killed. On the other hand, I like to have richer movement options enabled by the addition of sprint, not only the ability of running at higher speed, but also the derived movements from it, like slide (=sprint+crouch) and shoulder charge (=sprint+melee). Maybe b) is the right way to go? The main issue I have with that is that the "asymmetric" rule between offense vs. defense is too artificial. Okay here's the thing with sprint. With sprint they had to make the maps bigger, which means that they made the average engagement distance either really close (two guys sprint around a corner and see each other) or really far (two people see each other along the long sight lines that are created when the maps are enlarged). So maybe that's ok, but then what they did is added a zoom/ADS to automatic weapons. Classic halo has never had automatic weapons with zoom. The lack of zoom firmly put their ideal ranges and close (AR) and really close (SMG). With the addition of "smart scope" and ADS on these automatic weapons the ranges at which they are effective has increased. Now you might think that this change is a good thing, due to the map size increase or that those weapons used to be "useless" but what has happened is that they wanted to keep the classic Halo feel that the community wanted so they couldn't add a movement speed penalty to zoom or a general hipfire nerf. So for the automatic weapons' (and actually all weapons too) zoom ends up being a complete improvement over hipfire with little penalty. So now, you NEED to zoom/ADS to be effective whereas before the whole point was that zoom wasn't needed to be effective at range. Additionally with sprint added I can tell that they tried to curb people's ability to escape by decreasing the TTK of all the weapons across the board. But this, with the spread improvements due to ADS/zoom on automatic weapons, kills a player's ability to do anything when outnumbered in 2v1 situation. This is unfortunate as Halo was always known for giving players options when outnumbered or down a shot to succeed. So that seems to be lost too. Also another thing I noticed is that they seemed to increase the shield regen time (time since you last too damage to when you start recharging) probably due to the fact that sprint resets this timer. This time is too fast, but a simple fix that I can see while keeping the sprint = no regen mechanic is to make sprint only "pause" the timer rather than reset it. This will allow them to increase that timer while not making the game feel sluggish. Anyways overall I guess what I'm trying to get out of this is that sprint is shoehorning Halo to be a different game than what it used to be. Great insights here. It is apparent that adding Sprint into Halo has great implications. Questions and comments: 1) Question: I thought that ADS will only improve accuracy for AR and SMG, but not the semi auto weapons (i.e.: hip fire is just as accurate as ADS), is that assumption false? 2) I am not too worried about the automatic weapons. Their current OPness can be easily addressed through nerf, or simply just go with BR start. 3) Regarding map size: without thinking it thoroughly my current preference is to welcome the change of having bigger maps. But my opinion can easily change on that aspect once I get to play more of this game and no longer suck as bad as I am right now  4) I think the biggest controversy around sprint is how easily players can escape from a losing gun fight. As a result: 1 on 1 encounter is no longer black and white, which Halo veterans argue that it makes the game feel less "skill based" and more appealing to "casuals". 5) In other games that have sprint built in (CoD, Titanfall, and even Destiny), the TTK is much lower than Halo so escape is not an effective option. Halo does have a somewhat unique problem it has to address. |
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Jan 7, 2015 20:22:45 GMT -5
Additionally with sprint added I can tell that they tried to curb people's ability to escape by decreasing the TTK of all the weapons across the board. But this, with the spread improvements due to ADS/zoom on automatic weapons, kills a player's ability to do anything when outnumbered in 2v1 situation. This is unfortunate as Halo was always known for giving players options when outnumbered or down a shot to succeed. So that seems to be lost too. Also another thing I noticed is that they seemed to increase the shield regen time (time since you last too damage to when you start recharging) probably due to the fact that sprint resets this timer. This time is too fast, but a simple fix that I can see while keeping the sprint = no regen mechanic is to make sprint only "pause" the timer rather than reset it. This will allow them to increase that timer while not making the game feel sluggish. For the most part I agree with these comments; especially, the regen mechanic. I would add though that while in some ways the ability to overcome 2v1 situations has altered it hasn't really changed the options that much. First off, it's definitely more important now to ensure a player is working better with their team which means improved communication and positioning. To me that means there's a definite increase to the player skill gap; people who can understand the map's layout and its' flow including knowing how to take or protect important power positions as well as those who can communicate/coordinate actions or information with team members are going to be more successful. Secondly, it presents a bigger reliance on a player's twitch abilities - how good are they when confronted with a 2v1 match-up to land a perfect panic nade followed by accurate firing; plus, they may need to demonstrate full command and skill of their character's new movement options. Making use of the increased movement system may include escaping when escape is necessary which a more skillful player likely maintained a route/destination for. Hell, I've run into several players/teams who have been very good at running types of faints that appear as if they're meant to lure unsuspecting overly aggressive victims (like myself) into planned ambushes or simply into open environments where the attacking player now becomes the vulnerable one; though, in all honestly that's not too much different than the tactics that have been available and used in past titles. I would also add that with quicker TTKs when an aggressive offensive player is able to catch a group of opponents off-guard there's a bigger likelihood that player could potentially reap the benefits of his aggressiveness. Overall, as I'm seeing it there's simply a bigger risk/reward aspect to the gameplay in general; this has indeed changed the competitive feel a bit (especially with the new movement and attack abilities) but every new Halo title has seen some kind of changes to the gameplay and competitive feel so I don't really worry about that too much. |
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 7, 2015 23:37:42 GMT -5
Okay here's the thing with sprint. With sprint they had to make the maps bigger, which means that they made the average engagement distance either really close (two guys sprint around a corner and see each other) or really far (two people see each other along the long sight lines that are created when the maps are enlarged). So maybe that's ok, but then what they did is added a zoom/ADS to automatic weapons. Classic halo has never had automatic weapons with zoom. The lack of zoom firmly put their ideal ranges and close (AR) and really close (SMG). With the addition of "smart scope" and ADS on these automatic weapons the ranges at which they are effective has increased. Now you might think that this change is a good thing, due to the map size increase or that those weapons used to be "useless" but what has happened is that they wanted to keep the classic Halo feel that the community wanted so they couldn't add a movement speed penalty to zoom or a general hipfire nerf. So for the automatic weapons' (and actually all weapons too) zoom ends up being a complete improvement over hipfire with little penalty. So now, you NEED to zoom/ADS to be effective whereas before the whole point was that zoom wasn't needed to be effective at range. Additionally with sprint added I can tell that they tried to curb people's ability to escape by decreasing the TTK of all the weapons across the board. But this, with the spread improvements due to ADS/zoom on automatic weapons, kills a player's ability to do anything when outnumbered in 2v1 situation. This is unfortunate as Halo was always known for giving players options when outnumbered or down a shot to succeed. So that seems to be lost too. Also another thing I noticed is that they seemed to increase the shield regen time (time since you last too damage to when you start recharging) probably due to the fact that sprint resets this timer. This time is too fast, but a simple fix that I can see while keeping the sprint = no regen mechanic is to make sprint only "pause" the timer rather than reset it. This will allow them to increase that timer while not making the game feel sluggish. Anyways overall I guess what I'm trying to get out of this is that sprint is shoehorning Halo to be a different game than what it used to be. Great insights here. It is apparent that adding Sprint into Halo has great implications. Questions and comments: 1) Question: I thought that ADS will only improve accuracy for AR and SMG, but not the semi auto weapons (i.e.: hip fire is just as accurate as ADS), is that assumption false? 2) I am not too worried about the automatic weapons. Their current OPness can be easily addressed through nerf, or simply just go with BR start. 3) Regarding map size: without thinking it thoroughly my current preference is to welcome the change of having bigger maps. But my opinion can easily change on that aspect once I get to play more of this game and no longer suck as bad as I am right now 4) I think the biggest controversy around sprint is how easily players can escape from a losing gun fight. As a result: 1 on 1 encounter is no longer black and white, which Halo veterans argue that it makes the game feel less "skill based" and more appealing to "casuals". 5) In other games that have sprint built in (CoD, Titanfall, and even Destiny), the TTK is much lower than Halo so escape is not an effective option. Halo does have a somewhat unique problem it has to address. 1) No, zoom decreases spread on all weapons. The ADS/zoom and hipfire are similar in that they have the same pattern and on screen they take up the same area, but the actual spread is smaller. This is unlike the other games where ADS makes you pinpoint accurate. 2) The issue with automatic weapons is there is a significant increase in effective range with zoom that can't be easily nerfed without removing zoom completely. Zoom gives all kinds of benefits with little downsides. In earlier games zoom's OPness was checked by descoping, but with the COD style left trigger ADS/zoom it is non-trivial to keep zoomed while in a firefight. While BR starts "fix" this, parts of the game will be designed around those automatic weapons in a way that is non-ideal. 3) I think a good mix of big, medium, and small maps is what we want, but if the game design tends to force the maps to be larger overall, because they don't work when smaller, then there is an issue. 4) I do see how people can find "escapability" to be an issue, but I have not often experienced it. I'm more worried about how sprint will affect other core tenants of the game. It is certainly a feature solely for the casual crowd, and maybe with the right implementation it can not negatively affect the skill gap, but that's not where Halo 5 is right now. 5) Agreed, Mousey also mentioned on IRC that COD's accuracy while ADS helps this. |
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 8, 2015 0:15:30 GMT -5
Additionally with sprint added I can tell that they tried to curb people's ability to escape by decreasing the TTK of all the weapons across the board. But this, with the spread improvements due to ADS/zoom on automatic weapons, kills a player's ability to do anything when outnumbered in 2v1 situation. This is unfortunate as Halo was always known for giving players options when outnumbered or down a shot to succeed. So that seems to be lost too. Also another thing I noticed is that they seemed to increase the shield regen time (time since you last too damage to when you start recharging) probably due to the fact that sprint resets this timer. This time is too fast, but a simple fix that I can see while keeping the sprint = no regen mechanic is to make sprint only "pause" the timer rather than reset it. This will allow them to increase that timer while not making the game feel sluggish. For the most part I agree with these comments; especially, the regen mechanic. I would add though that while in some ways the ability to overcome 2v1 situations has altered it hasn't really changed the options that much. First off, it's definitely more important now to ensure a player is working better with their team which means improved communication and positioning. To me that means there's a definite increase to the player skill gap; people who can understand the map's layout and its' flow including knowing how to take or protect important power positions as well as those who can communicate/coordinate actions or information with team members are going to be more successful. Secondly, it presents a bigger reliance on a player's twitch abilities - how good are they when confronted with a 2v1 match-up to land a perfect panic nade followed by accurate firing; plus, they may need to demonstrate full command and skill of their character's new movement options. Making use of the increased movement system may include escaping when escape is necessary which a more skillful player likely maintained a route/destination for. Hell, I've run into several players/teams who have been very good at running types of faints that appear as if they're meant to lure unsuspecting overly aggressive victims (like myself) into planned ambushes or simply into open environments where the attacking player now becomes the vulnerable one; though, in all honestly that's not too much different than the tactics that have been available and used in past titles. I would also add that with quicker TTKs when an aggressive offensive player is able to catch a group of opponents off-guard there's a bigger likelihood that player could potentially reap the benefits of his aggressiveness. Overall, as I'm seeing it there's simply a bigger risk/reward aspect to the gameplay in general; this has indeed changed the competitive feel a bit (especially with the new movement and attack abilities) but every new Halo title has seen some kind of changes to the gameplay and competitive feel so I don't really worry about that too much. I get what you are saying, but the thing is it is all still encouraged in the earlier designs. There's no reason to change if it's going to negatively affect everything else in its path. One thing that I read on reddit is how with faster firing weapons, the difference between perfect ttk and average ttk is lessened, which reduces skill gap. Read that here. Also you have to think about how the low ttk punishes lower sensitivies and makes everything else feel really slow such as reload, weapon switching, and ads time. Body shots with sniper then follow up br headshots are really hard to do now. |
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 8, 2015 1:36:46 GMT -5
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 8, 2015 12:13:14 GMT -5
In general, I am now a bit more optimistic about 343 and Halo 5, inspired by
1) The beta is quite enjoyable (the community already responded more positively than Reach and H4 combined) despite that the release date is still 3-4 quarters away;
2) 343i is put a lot of thoughts and efforts into this extended beta: 3 weeks long, with different variations each week;
3) My biggest concern, matchmaking, turns out to work fine enough for beta;
4) Skill based MM is working as intended as far as I can tell;
I am confident that 343 will take community' input from beta seriously and look into suggestions of making the game to be more appealing to fans. The PvP side of the game is probably not going to be a huge commercial success like H2/H3 or CoD, but should shape out to be a solid title with dedicated fan base. Add a good campaign on top of that, it can still be a fairly good console pusher for XONE.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Jan 8, 2015 13:37:51 GMT -5
I would also add to your comments Witty that if the competitive scene backed by Microsoft and 343i is sustainable then there should be a fairly decent core population that will stick with the game over a longer period of time. I say this because even causal players who simply appreciate the talent and capabilities of the upper tier competitive community may be more inclined to get behind playing Halo 5 over a longer period of time verses moving on to whatever the "next" new thing is. Another point is that I hope 343i gives equal investment in vehicular combat/big team games because that aspect of Halo is one proven over time to have great long-term player base involvement; I do wish that 343i would have a second Beta for that aspect, but it doesn't appear they will.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Jan 8, 2015 14:28:46 GMT -5
Outside a few minor points that I could get behind and support I found this person's nostalgic rant as just that - an extremely well written rant based around his twisted nostalgia and very strong personal opinions. Some of the points I either agreed with outright or side with at this time are these... - No teammate indicators. (These are the icons that used to float above a teammate's head to show if he was shooting or being shot at. If friendly fire allowed us to interact with our teammates, teammate indicators made us feel like we were playing with them. Those icons showed us who needed help where, so we played with an eye to our Spartan friends. As it stands in Halo 5, I run around killing as a lone wolf. I see other players of similar color who also run around the stage shooting, but those people do not feel like my teammates: I cannot see their struggles, I cannot reach them in time to help them as enemy encounters are short and deadly, and I know not who requires my help most because the game does not show me which teammate is engaged in a gunfight. Teammate indicators place focus back onto caring about the actions and well-being of your teammates, and playing as a team makes Halo's gameplay come alive.)
- Post-game brODSTs. (This is not the cool image for Spartans that Master Chief fostered in our minds.)
- Adding headshot damage to imprecise weapons like the AR and SMG was a stupid idea. Automatic weapons are inherently inaccurate weapons; you spray them at the enemy, and, if you're too far apart, you fire them in controlled bursts. Their cone of fire expands the longer you shoot, but once shields are depleted, both these weapons can register headshots. What this translates to is a random element in close range gunfights, where the lucky shooter who sprays with greater fortune on his side will score shots to the head, while his unlucky opponent sprays his gun without a stray bullet striking his foe's visor. Amplified headshot damage is necessary and expected for precision weapons, but applying that same damage model to weapons that are mostly sprayed-and-prayed is a baffling design choice and one that will leave a great number of players befuddled while they lie dead and watch the killcam that shows their opponent doing the same exact thing they just did, but who inexplicably wins the fight.
I would have added the one about a lack of attention towards vehicle combat, but that's in regards strictly to this beta as I'm pretty sure vehicular combat will exist in the full game; though, I do wish 343i would have a second beta that was featured around big teams and vehicular combat so that that aspect of the game could also get some proper attention prior to release (not sounding likely to happen though). I would have also added his comments about Kill-Cams, but I'm not so anti-kill-cam that I would include it; I mean, I kind of get why they can be a sort of competitive improvement to the game - having only them verses deathcams actually restricts or narrows the amount of information that a dead person can give his teammates. The Deathcams that existed traditionally allowed a dead player to pan around from their dead body's position to see all that was going on and pass that live information onto their teammates and I personally agree that it's better to restrict the knowledge a dead person can give (but this is just a personal belief) and when forced to watch a Kill-Cam verses having a Deathcam (I know Halo 5 has both now) the info that a dead person can pass on is restricted to what they watch occur in the past. I would add that I do wish Halo 5 would add a "final" Kill-Cam as I think it's the most enjoyable aspect of having kill-cams; I like that all can see how the last kill of the match went down. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 8, 2015 14:49:30 GMT -5
I would also add to your comments Witty that if the competitive scene backed by Microsoft and 343i is sustainable then there should be a fairly decent core population that will stick with the game over a longer period of time. I say this because even causal players who simply appreciate the talent and capabilities of the upper tier competitive community may be more inclined to get behind playing Halo 5 over a longer period of time verses moving on to whatever the "next" new thing is. Another point is that I hope 343i gives equal investment in vehicular combat/big team games because that aspect of Halo is one proven over time to have great long-term player base involvement; I do wish that 343i would have a second Beta for that aspect, but it doesn't appear they will. I can second that. I watched Halo MCC tournament last weekend and it is fun enough to watch. If 343i can make the SBMM solid and popular enough among the fans through Halo MCC and H5, players who play Halo would be able to enjoy the eSports as spectators. IMHO it would be more fun to watch than CoD, because there will be much less disconnect between the "pub" world and the "competitive" world, because the games played at the "pro" level is similar enough to games played at the "Iron" and "Bronze" level. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 9, 2015 19:00:56 GMT -5
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jan 9, 2015 19:17:50 GMT -5
The new game mode kinda sucks. It's fun but the spawns kill it. It's like Dom in COD, but spawns flip all over the place for no reason whatsoever regardless of what points are held. The new map is okay. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 11, 2015 13:21:29 GMT -5
Simple question: DMR vs. BR
I seem to do better with DMR because its faster RoF. That is supposed to be balanced by it is "harder" to use than BR, but I failed to see why. Is it because BR can get headshots easier, due to its 3 round bursts (during 1 shot situation, as long as I 1 bullet lands it is a kill)?
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Feb 5, 2015 12:22:25 GMT -5
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 5, 2015 18:29:29 GMT -5
Looks exciting enough, as all of the proposed changes are moving in the direction of what veteran players want, on: 1) Sprint and Spartan abilities can by turned on/off. This means that we can have playlists that don't have them; 2) For playlists that have sprint and Spartan abilities enabled, they will be tweaked as the following: 3) Weapon tweaks Presentation, CSR, and Matchmaking will be significantly improved as well, which are expected by everybody. |
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 6, 2015 13:35:46 GMT -5
Looks like Sprint is here to stay whether you like it or not:
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Post by jaedrik on Feb 6, 2015 14:59:17 GMT -5
Dang, I wasn't expecting such a clear-cut poll victory.
A lot of people probably agreed because the past two games had it. A new precedent, yeah?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 6, 2015 15:08:29 GMT -5
After playing beta extensively, I went from liking sprint to thinking that the game is better off without. The only main positive thing I see about it (for myself) is the consistency with the other games I regularly play (Titanfall, CoD, Destiny, etc)
However, Honestly speaking I am not too worried about the sprint any more, because:
1) there will be options to disable it. I am sure there will be a hardcore playlist where both sprint and radar are removed. If it turns out that most players prefer that than others, then it is a undeniable proof that Halo does not need sprint;
2) they are increasing base movement speed and decreasing the gap between the base speed and sprint speed. This addresses the concerns (somewhat) that the maps will be designed mainly with sprint in mind and as a result may be horrible when sprint is disabled;
3) With #2, hopefully the ability to sprint is no longer an effective tool for escape;
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Post by hard1ine on Feb 15, 2015 3:02:27 GMT -5
Game sucks nuts. Game was engineered to suck nuts. So why did Guardians have objectively better map flow and pacing that BAL of Duty: ASM Lagfare? Please elaborate. |
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Post by pachiderm on Feb 15, 2015 18:50:53 GMT -5
Game sucks nuts. Game was engineered to suck nuts. So why did Guardians have objectively better map flow and pacing that BAL of Duty: ASM Lagfare? Please elaborate. There are other games besides Call of Duty and the franchise formerly known as Halo. Comparing a bad game to a worse game does not make the bad game good. You need to suck this game's nuts a little less. |
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