hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Mar 12, 2015 14:34:29 GMT -5
Nice non-explanation there.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Mar 12, 2015 14:48:48 GMT -5
Nice non-explanation there. Talking about training wheels, die hard halo fans have a lot to say about Destiny as well as CoDAW. Hell, they even complain about the Halo5 on that matter (which by design is a much more hard-core MP shooter when compared with Destiny / CoD / BF). So it is not difficult for me to list them (not my opinion, just what I heard all these years in the Halo community), in no particular order, that applies to just about any "popular" "modern" shooters: Any concept of streaks (killstreaks, support streaks, etc) Stuff that just magically shows up after a cooldown (super, melee ability, grenade ability, etc) Radar/motion sensor/etc accessibility to power stuff without having to fight for it (e.g.: heavy ammo at home base) Sprint (as a way to get away from a losing fight / slide & drop shot (to have a moment of invincibility) / get to supposedly hard to reach places with easy jump/clamber etc. Any one hit kill without a high skill ceiling (One body shot kill snipers, instant melee kill, etc) Powerful auto weapons Easy accessibility to power item (e.g.: heavy ammo at home base instead of neutral location) ... The list goes on and on... Again, I am not agreeing with many of them, just to list them as hearsay
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Mar 12, 2015 14:58:26 GMT -5
On the general trend of this thread: Looks like again we get back to PvP discussions, which we have already had a lot of debate. There are school of thoughts (like mine) that would like to see the experience becoming more "tight" in terms of competitiveness, while other consider its basic premise fine as is as an "casual add on" to the PvE experience. After 6 months of debates, I think that we can now just agree to disagree Anyways, the success of Destiny is currently riding on 3 primary things: 1) A fun core shooting loop to lure players into it; 2) An investment system to keep players playing; 3) Well-crafted raids to provide reasons for people to want keep investing (e.g.: I will have no desire to get the powerful weapons like Gjallarhorns if Nightfalls represent the hardest content instead of Raids) The intention of Dumien's OP is to highlight this, especially 3.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 15:04:53 GMT -5
Nice non-explanation there. Well, what was there to explain? I thought I did explain. Or at least enough, seeing how we have discussed to death all those elements in Destiny's crucible (as well as you just having mentioned them). Trying to avoid repeating myself. My point with referencing CoDAW is that the game is freaking hard to play. It's completely different ..and harder...than destiny's crucible. Small maps, spawns all over and behind you every second, players moving 2 to 3x faster than Destiny, with faster TTK's, as well as animations that make people impossible to kill when they exo boost, not to mention there are no supers or launchers....so all your kills are coming from a few guns...and everyone for the most part, IS working with the same few guns, making it a very tightly played game, as well as the fact SBMM exists in slightly more/worse manner, due to lower player populations. You sit still for 3 seconds, you are shot from behind instantly. Yes, the developers fixed the tactical loitering-issue, but they made a brutally hard game to play (and I haven't even gotten into the lag issues yet, but both games have it) And the above doesn't mean CoDAw is better. In fact, for me, it's my least favorite so far because it's so hard to play. At times, it just comes across like a big mosh pit of garbage. The old fun 'map control' days are long gone. That blows. So how else can one phrase it? Compare and contrast the two, Destiny's does comes across like training wheels, with how it gives people all that extra stuff you mentioned. Again, that doesn't make the game better or worse. MarioKart is one of the most popular games of all times, and it is the essence of training wheel type of stuff (always giving people in the back, free shit to catch up)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 12, 2015 15:16:42 GMT -5
I don't care how "training wheels it is"
Every time I go to the COD section of these boards, I am sososososoososososososososoooosososososososoosossoooo glad I quit/gave up/ COD for Destiny. It is infinitely more appealing and satisfying that COD ever has been
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Mar 12, 2015 15:22:35 GMT -5
CoDAW is hard to play, at a consistently very high level. Where it isn't hard is the fact that one can simply pick up the controller and kill someone real freaking fast. And that is the attraction for the majority of players of any shooter. AW has actually dumbed down its' experience to about the lowest common denominator. Players like I-Dub are beating their heads against the wall to play at the level they are accustomed to. The simplified garbage that is AW is making that near impossible. What's left is to consider the fun factor of either game for any given player. That just comes down to preference.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 12, 2015 15:44:44 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the training wheels and Mario Kart analogies. They don't seem appropriate to me. Destiny doesn't literally reward playing poorly the way deathstreaks and blue shells do. It gives everybody timed access to abilities that can break stalemates. But then it also gives players who are killing and scoring more faster access to those abilities. The heavy ammo spawns on both sides, but it's actually setup about as neutral as you can get it. If you put it all in one location then whichever team already has two control points wouldn't have much trouble locking it down too (since it would have to be closer to B than either spawn) and rather than shaking up stalemates it would reinforce them. It's not like it's a free game flip. The team that's already ahead has theirs spawn too, plus they might even gank the other teams and score both, or kill off the players that get it and deny them the chance to use it. It shouldn't control the entire match after the first spawn so I'm glad players no longer drop heavy ammo. But it's not like it favors poor players. In fact every single thing you can do in Destiny as a poor player can be done better by a better player. Better players get more supers, more grenades, do more with it, ect. About the only thing that really rewards bad players is Voidfang Vestiments which gives Sunsinger 2 free grenades every life. Even then you have to get more than 1 grenade kill per life to make that pay out better than just not dying, and more than that if your team is down on capture points.
Not saying you're wrong. I just don't agree with the characterization. You characterize AW as tight and hard and Destiny as training wheels. I characterize AW as broken and not fun, and Destiny as more casual friendly. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. I agree to disagree... where do I sign?
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 15:58:35 GMT -5
I don't care how "training wheels it is" Every time I go to the COD section of these boards, I am sososososoososososososososoooosososososososoosossoooo glad I quit/gave up/ COD for Destiny. It is infinitely more appealing and satisfying that COD ever has been I specifically said, that regardless of the level of that stuff, that it always the deciding factor of how fun a game is. See Mario Kart. And I was ONLY referring to one tiny part of Destiny, the PvP section. Obviously, there are a ton of other more fun parts to the game in the PvE.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 16:01:36 GMT -5
CoDAW is hard to play, at a consistently very high level. Where it isn't hard is the fact that one can simply pick up the controller and kill someone real freaking fast. And that is the attraction for the majority of players of any shooter. AW has actually dumbed down its' experience to about the lowest common denominator. Players like I-Dub are beating their heads against the wall to play at the level they are accustomed to. The simplified garbage that is AW is making that near impossible. What's left is to consider the fun factor of either game for any given player. That just comes down to preference. Uh, what you described isn't how CoDAW plays. You might have been able to pick up a controller and kill someone really fast, but those days are gone now. In AW, you go to shoot and kill someone 'really fast', you first have to adjust for 500 mph exo boosting jumps, that also have a animation sequence built in that blocks you from killing them. Then you have to deal with a 200 mph lateral exo side strafe people do in mid air, making one have to guess to some degree, as to where they are landing. All the while, trying to keep an ADS on them, which is pretty much impossible to do unless you sensitivity is set to extremely high. So you end up not doing that, and instead try to hip fire at that, tracking where they will be....all the while trying to jump in the air yourself, making yourself a moving target. the days of picking up a controller, and killing someone easily...are gone bro.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 16:05:17 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the training wheels and Mario Kart analogies. They don't seem appropriate to me. Destiny doesn't literally reward playing poorly the way deathstreaks and blue shells do. It gives everybody timed access to abilities that can break stalemates. But then it also gives players who are killing and scoring more faster access to those abilities. The heavy ammo spawns on both sides, but it's actually setup about as neutral as you can get it. If you put it all in one location then whichever team already has two control points wouldn't have much trouble locking it down too (since it would have to be closer to B than either spawn) and rather than shaking up stalemates it would reinforce them. It's not like it's a free game flip. The team that's already ahead has theirs spawn too, plus they might even gank the other teams and score both, or kill off the players that get it and deny them the chance to use it. It shouldn't control the entire match after the first spawn so I'm glad players no longer drop heavy ammo. But it's not like it favors poor players. In fact every single thing you can do in Destiny as a poor player can be done better by a better player. Better players get more supers, more grenades, do more with it, ect. About the only thing that really rewards bad players is Voidfang Vestiments which gives Sunsinger 2 free grenades every life. Even then you have to get more than 1 grenade kill per life to make that pay out better than just not dying, and more than that if your team is down on capture points. Not saying you're wrong. I just don't agree with the characterization. You characterize AW as tight and hard and Destiny as training wheels. I characterize AW as broken and not fun, and Destiny as more casual friendly. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. I agree to disagree... where do I sign? fair enough. I honestly don't think that much into it. Saw some posts, so I started rambling. To comment on what you said, every game regardless of the type,...everything a person does in Mario Kart, a better player can do it better too. But setting aside the above nuances of what terminology to use, CoDAW is just a harder game to play. And again, I don't mean that in a complimentary way. In fact, I think that has pretty much chased most of the people away from it.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 12, 2015 17:23:33 GMT -5
A better player can definitely play Mario Kart better than a worse one, but players who are not in the lead are flat out favored by the game. It not only gives them better weapons it also makes their karts drive faster. Mario Kart is all about keeping people in the race all the way to the end and there is a massive amount of cheese. But then, that's sort of the whole point. It's a game you play with friends and if they screw you over this time next time maybe you get them, and you all laugh about it... or throw the game in the street and hope a semi runs over it. heh
Yeah it's pretty much chased me away from AW... though I still want to give it a try. I just can't get motivated. Not when I still have so much left to do in Destiny.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 17:35:00 GMT -5
Yeah, i see your point.
I guess i just view the Crucible the same way. Giving everyone free rockets, that's a way of almost guaranteeing a kill to someone (or a couple). Giving a person two or three supers, yet another way to pretty much give them another 2-6 free kills. All these things, are essentially ways to allow lessor skilled players to 'keep up' with others. it's the same logic to me.
"is all about keeping people in the race all the way to the end"
But i do see your point, that the difference with Mario Kart, is only the losing players get the goodies.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 12, 2015 17:36:19 GMT -5
Actually I will meet you half way on the Mario Kart analogy. Destiny isn't rewarding the poor performers but it does offer many ways of breaking stalemates and lock downs. To me this is a good thing because it gives you a reason to keep playing a losing game if you might be able to turn it around. I still think it's totally fair and balanced, (unlike the maps) so I really don't see a problem with it. It is more casual friendly than competition friendly, but then I fully advocate more competition minded playlists and better yet... private lobbies and clan v clan matches, ect... I just want very much for the casual friendly PvP to stay, because I think it's what is most appropriate for the game, and it's what I enjoy for PvP. (I have CS:GO for some reason, but I have honestly never even installed it... and I'm not really tempted to... much.)
I think it just rubs me the wrong way the way you describe it sometimes, because I feel like the whole competitive community really looks down their noses at anything "not competitive". I've never really seen the point pushing skill at the expense of anything fun if it's possible to reward skill, but still have fun, (and not just fun for the "good" players.) That's why I like watching Shootmania, but I will probably never ever ever ever play it. ;3
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wings
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Post by wings on Mar 12, 2015 17:49:28 GMT -5
I think Borderlands 3 might do a Raid like Destiny since I imagine the release of the remastered edition is probably after Destiny players. I suppose it is just a question of who the boss will be.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Mar 12, 2015 19:07:33 GMT -5
CoDAW is hard to play, at a consistently very high level. Where it isn't hard is the fact that one can simply pick up the controller and kill someone real freaking fast. And that is the attraction for the majority of players of any shooter. AW has actually dumbed down its' experience to about the lowest common denominator. Players like I-Dub are beating their heads against the wall to play at the level they are accustomed to. The simplified garbage that is AW is making that near impossible. What's left is to consider the fun factor of either game for any given player. That just comes down to preference. Uh, what you described isn't how CoDAW plays. You might have been able to pick up a controller and kill someone really fast, but those days are gone now. In AW, you go to shoot and kill someone 'really fast', you first have to adjust for 500 mph exo boosting jumps, that also have a animation sequence built in that blocks you from killing them. Then you have to deal with a 200 mph lateral exo side strafe people do in mid air, making one have to guess to some degree, as to where they are landing. All the while, trying to keep an ADS on them, which is pretty much impossible to do unless you sensitivity is set to extremely high. So you end up not doing that, and instead try to hip fire at that, tracking where they will be....all the while trying to jump in the air yourself, making yourself a moving target. the days of picking up a controller, and killing someone easily...are gone bro. Guys spawn right in front of you...run or jump in any direction for 2 seconds and there is someones' back, ready to fill with lead. Of course, your own back is just as vulnerable, and then you spawn right in front of an enemy, yourself. Rinse and repeat, bro.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 12, 2015 21:34:08 GMT -5
Actually I will meet you half way on the Mario Kart analogy. Destiny isn't rewarding the poor performers but it does offer many ways of breaking stalemates and lock downs. To me this is a good thing because it gives you a reason to keep playing a losing game if you might be able to turn it around. I still think it's totally fair and balanced, (unlike the maps) so I really don't see a problem with it. It is more casual friendly than competition friendly, but then I fully advocate more competition minded playlists and better yet... private lobbies and clan v clan matches, ect... I just want very much for the casual friendly PvP to stay, because I think it's what is most appropriate for the game, and it's what I enjoy for PvP. (I have CS:GO for some reason, but I have honestly never even installed it... and I'm not really tempted to... much.) I think it just rubs me the wrong way the way you describe it sometimes, because I feel like the whole competitive community really looks down their noses at anything "not competitive". I've never really seen the point pushing skill at the expense of anything fun if it's possible to reward skill, but still have fun, (and not just fun for the "good" players.) That's why I like watching Shootmania, but I will probably never ever ever ever play it. ;3 Nothing i am saying, is coming from a competitive angle. Most of all my CoD playing (and the FPS playing) over the years have been mostly all just for fun too. I just don't find it fun playing it a few hours, after dealing with the stuff in that game. If that's bothering people on here, making people upset because of made a negative comment about this game....well, not sure what to say to that. I suppose I just won't bring it up anymore i suppose.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 13, 2015 3:23:02 GMT -5
Seems like a copy paste is in order: Disclaimer: This is my opinion, I like a thorough discussion with real! arguments, it is one of the reasons I like this message board. So please keep the arguments real, and try not to be influenced to much by your feelings about a gameSome clutch moments I got in destiny: - Getting opponent heavy ammo, only to die quickly after, denying their whole team of heavy ammo. Cool - Rushing to point B with my super charged, to wipe five players of the objective. (and probably dying quickly after by their supers, 2 missions accomplished: holding the objective and them wasting their super on me (a single guy) out of frustration) - Shotgun+melee blade dancers who are about to wipe your whole team. - Hulk smash that same blade dancer who is about to wipe your whole team. - Rushing their heavy ammo spawn after picking up rocket ammo, to kill as much heavy ammo bearers (esp machine guns) as possible. only to die quickly after. Some clutch moments I got in COD: tactical loitering/playing defensively after I get 7-8 kills to get to that ass clapper one thirty (or moab, which is a very very campy goal) Capture point B Save point B plant/defuse bomb with only 1v1 players left Now ALL clutch moments for destiny are infinetely more fun in my oppinion compared to clutch moments in COD. Because clutch moments in COD (appart from 1v1 situations) rely most on which player can play more defensively. In destiny, rushing enemies and dying can actually win you the game! Your ghosts only task is reviving you infinite times (and openeing doors) let him do his job, there is no shame in dying if you can get revived infinite times!
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 13, 2015 5:39:14 GMT -5
If you are directing the first part at me, I'm done discussing this stuff.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 13, 2015 6:20:23 GMT -5
You mean the disclaimer or the quote?
-Disclaimer is general, very general, not trying to start a flame war at here. I just hope we can keep formulating arguments and trying to discuss "opponents" arguments, instead of stating the same argument over and over again. -Quote is a general discussion point focused at nobody specific, although I was in discussion with an opinion which was shared by you, so in some sense, it is also directed at you. But I hope we can agree there is nothing wrong with a discussion.
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