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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 10:25:34 GMT -5
Cheesing is as dumb as using the hunter invisibility: both were deliberately put in the game by Bungie. You cannot differentiate between the two. Disagree. Yes you can. Bungie had no clue that someone would use the revive feature to trick the Atheon AI into forcing the teleporting code to stop happening. Bungie probably had no clue someone would think that up. It's simply impossible to try and foresee every possible thing like that. Bungie did know, very well, that people using the Hunters....would indeed use the invisibility button to run past stuff. In fact, they have openly talked about that feature and it's strengths in interviews, saying they know it's powerful, and it's one of the reasons they limited the hunter's jumping.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 18, 2015 10:28:23 GMT -5
I was speaking specifically of the room outside Omnigul's chamber where having some extra heavy ammo can really speed up killing her. (Unless you already have the gear for a fast Omnigul kill... I don't.) I also just like to kill those fokkers outside her room. It doesn't take very long, and it's rather satisfying. Ice Breaker solved this area for me. Burn or no burn it will chew through the wizards, knights, and Ogre for you.
Most places I can speed past I do because as you said, I can just get ammo later.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 18, 2015 10:34:04 GMT -5
Maybe that's true for some cheese spots. No one is categorically saying EVERY cheese spot is 100% effective. But are you really going to tell me the Archon Priest is able to hit you while you potshot him up on the ledge? I can leave the room and go away for ten hours...i'll never be hit. Same is true for countless others. The ship can still hit you (and if it's a rainbow/arc burn, it'll one shot), the snipers can still hit you, the servators can still hit you. There is the spot further back, but all the priest does is just stick around that corner and wait for you. Meanwhile, the ads come and can hit you. So, no... the archon priest spot is most certainly not an invincible spot. As for the Athelon tactic, I agree that Bungie probably didn't think of that one (much like the pushing them off him off the ledge too) but there are many many many cheese spots in the game that are deliberately put there and made accessable. Just not invincible.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 10:36:46 GMT -5
I dunno. I don't think the solo Atheon thing was glitching so much. Definitely a bit of cheese to avoid the teleport, but then it was also just using an ability that was given to the players. Dying and reviving is part of the game... If the AI wigged out a bit then that may have helped him some, but I think I think avoiding the teleport was the point, not glitching the AI. *shrug* Good thoughts. I think the answer you are looking for is this. Is the cheese part of the spirit of the game. Yes or no. The Atheon revive/glitch, was that part of the spirit of fair play? No. So it's a cheese/glitch. Is running past twenty enemies using invisibility part of the spirit of game? Yes. Not a cheese. It's pretty simple. And imho, it's also very simply in that no one cares about the above, as people place importance on 'time'. So at this point, it's all a moot point. I would throw that back at him. Are we so sensitive about this game, that we view any criticism of it as now being characterized as .... " is so awfully, regretfully, completely and utterly broken and Foxtroted up and horrible" No one on this board has ever said that about Destiny. So qpie's point is a bit of a strawman, trying to deflect legitimate criticism and valid discussion on possible fixes, as being lumped into some dumb 'you are a hater' category. I know some people nutride this game HARD, but let's not get carried away. A lot of criticism is valid. And healthy. As to why are we still playing? I'll answer for myself. Because there is nothing else that has my interest. I play CoDAW & Destiny. Done. If I had another game catch my interest, Destiny would be gone immediately. But there are none. FPS'ers are hard to find. And as far as "the following", we don't know that. I personally see A LOT less people playing this game lately, and I'm pretty sure the numbers have died off quite a bit. For all we know, there might only be 5,000 people online every night playing on the Xbox system. We don't know either way, because Activision hides the numbers. Just like how they are doing right now with CoDAW. My point of decline (not following) is further backed up indirectly, by Activision's reluctance to tell us the actual truth, and instead fall back on fictitious silly dumb numbers like 'registered users' as prop pieces when boasting about the game's success. IF something is truly successful, going great, you don't need to lie about it when boasting.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 18, 2015 10:54:11 GMT -5
Agreed with IW... saying Destiny "is so awfully, regretfully, completely and utterly broken and Foxtroted up and horrible" is just drama queening, making mountains out of molehills, and bitching for the sake of bitching.
Nothing in the game is that way.
$hit like this, just shuts down any form of discussion
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 11:03:14 GMT -5
The other reply I hear about criticism is this.
"You can't change the developer's minds, so stop being critical"
...and that's completely absurd. Ideas can be formulated on message boards, discussion for improvements. And those ideas can then be communicated to big companies like Bungie and others. It happens all the time. In fact, I have PERSONALLY done this with CoD Clan Wars at least four times in the past year, getting IW/BeachHead/SH to change directions of things they were doing, with simply tweeting to them. Like got an actual, "We are doing this change". Change can be done. We actually got a complete revising of a rule with the Clan World championships last September, during the contest, with just one tweet we made to the BeachHead studio head. Even with Destiny. Bungie has relented and changed some aspects of this game, based on criticisms leveled their way.
Nothing is perfect in life. And if you want to make something better, you start with examining where the faults are. And once isolated, taking steps to fix them.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Mar 18, 2015 11:05:17 GMT -5
I skip enemies in Roc strikes, without question. Here's the thing - skipping enemies you don't need to kill doesn't really lower the rate at which you kill enemies. Skipping enemies in a Roc strike doesn't really take additional time; you don't have to take a long way around or anything, you simply run or drive the same way you would had you stopped to kill them all.
Let's assume that killing every enemy rather than skipping them takes 50% more time (it doesn't matter what the exact number is, just using this as an example). That means in the time it takes to complete 2 Roc strikes without skipping, you could complete 3 with skipping. So you get the rewards for an extra strike. Your time spent killing enemies is roughly the same, but the proportion of enemies you kill that are Majors will be much higher, so you'll receive more glimmer and consumables.
Unless killing those enemies is more fun, then just skip them and take the extra rewards. I have no problem doing the Undying Mind, even though it takes much longer than most other strikes, because it's the most fun of any of the strikes. But I'm still going to run past enemies I don't need to kill.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 18, 2015 11:30:09 GMT -5
The other reply I hear about criticism is this. " You can't change the developer's minds, so stop being critical" ...and that's completely absurd. Ideas can be formulated on message boards, discussion for improvements. And those ideas can then be communicated to big companies like Bungie and others. It happens all the time. In fact, I have PERSONALLY done this with CoD Clan Wars at least four times in the past year, getting IW/BeachHead/SH to change directions of things they were doing, with simply tweeting to them. Like got an actual, "We are doing this change". Change can be done. We actually got a complete revising of a rule with the Clan World championships last September, during the contest, with just one tweet we made to the BeachHead studio head. Even with Destiny. Bungie has relented and changed some aspects of this game, based on criticisms leveled their way. Nothing is perfect in life. And if you want to make something better, you start with examining where the faults are. And once isolated, taking steps to fix them. Especially since we asked for more bounty space and they gave it to us. If anything, Bungie has been very proactive giving the players what they want.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 18, 2015 11:31:05 GMT -5
I skip enemies in Roc strikes, without question. Here's the thing - skipping enemies you don't need to kill doesn't really lower the rate at which you kill enemies. Skipping enemies in a Roc strike doesn't really take additional time; you don't have to take a long way around or anything, you simply run or drive the same way you would had you stopped to kill them all. Let's assume that killing every enemy rather than skipping them takes 50% more time (it doesn't matter what the exact number is, just using this as an example). That means in the time it takes to complete 2 Roc strikes without skipping, you could complete 3 with skipping. So you get the rewards for an extra strike. Your time spent killing enemies is roughly the same, but the proportion of enemies you kill that are Majors will be much higher, so you'll receive more glimmer and consumables. Unless killing those enemies is more fun, then just skip them and take the extra rewards. I have no problem doing the Undying Mind, even though it takes much longer than most other strikes, because it's the most fun of any of the strikes. But I'm still going to run past enemies I don't need to kill. Which is why Brad and I die so you have to come back and res us ;>... Herr ZergerHawkerMeister
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 11:33:27 GMT -5
Is the undying mind the one moon DLC map? You blow up the crystal at the end?
I actually enjoy that mission. It's fun to try and go all the way to the end....without killing a single enemy along the way. That's fun. It's also A LOT more challenging than simply blowing up dumb AI with OP weapons. Race through the map, run, dodge, avoid, and get to the end.
Just looked. The one I am thinking of is the Wakening. This one is fun. I made a video on it.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Mar 18, 2015 11:58:13 GMT -5
iw5000 Undying Mind is the Playstation exclusive DLC strike. It takes place in the Black Garden. You fight a huge amount of Vex, including a hallway where you take on roughly a trillion Majors. It's a lot of fun, as you can repeatedly super from all of the orbs that drop.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 12:03:12 GMT -5
Oh ok. ty.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 18, 2015 12:10:14 GMT -5
"is so awfully, regretfully, completely and utterly broken and Foxtroted up and horrible", was an exaggeration for brevity and comic effect.
Personally I don't think I am overly sensitive about Destiny. I like the game, I enjoy it a lot. But it's not in my top 5 or even top 10 games. But having said that I also see a lot of emotionally charged and derogatory criticism which I don't think is fair at all. The game has bugs. It has glitches. It has flaws. That doesn't make it dumb, or stupid, or whatever. X-Com which IS in my top 5 games (maybe #1) also has flaws, bugs, and glitches... some really bad ones. It even has some pretty bad design flaws. But it's still a really good game.
There's an assumption that flaws, bugs, glitches, and bad design are the result of stupidity or laziness. Honestly most of those things happen simply because people aren't perfect and neither are the environments and organizations that they have to work within during development. Development is a messy process. Do we have to be so negative about every little mistake and vilify it's originator? It just seems people are highly polarized and either go mostly fanboy or mostly hater, at least with their speech. Merely an observation... *shrug*
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 12:15:46 GMT -5
Iron Banner truly does suck. I think the above phrase fits pretty well for that one particular part of the game lol!!!!
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Mar 18, 2015 12:24:45 GMT -5
I haven't played this latest one so can't comment on it. I have played all but the first of the others and had fun in every one with only a few nights of massive frustration. On the whole I like it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 18, 2015 12:47:14 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but trying to point out things you think are bad in every single thread is pretty pointless. This is a thread about the weekly Nightfall. Nobody told you to cheese it, we all know by now you think this game is only about cheese and that you think crusible sucks, no point stating it as a fact in every single threat. The fact is that not everyone agrees with you. That's life and also one of the reasons message boards exist.
Other then that, I simply don't like discussions where circumstantial evidence is put as facts. It reduces the value of this message board, and that bothers me way more then people not seeing the good things in destiny. F*ck destiny, it was not even my favorite game of 2014.
Now, can we take off the flaming hat and continue the discussions like we did all those years on this great message board? I have always read your posts with great joy, but lately they seem to be made only for the purpose of stating how bad destiny is.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 12:59:00 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but trying to point out things you think are bad in every single thread is pretty pointless. This is a thread about the weekly Nightfall. Nobody told you to cheese it, we all know by now you think this game is only about cheese and that you think crusible sucks, no point stating it as a fact in every single threat. The fact is that not everyone agrees with you. That's life and also one of the reasons message boards exist. Other then that, I simply don't like discussions where circumstantial evidence is put as facts. It reduces the value of this message board, and that bothers me way more then people not seeing the good things in destiny. F*ck destiny, it was not even my favorite game of 2014. Now, can we take off the flaming hat and continue the discussions like we did all those years on this great message board? I have always read your posts with great joy, but lately they seem to be made only for the purpose of stating how bad destiny is. Ok? But maybe look in a mirror? My first post in this thread was just joking, getting to the cover of the video that was linked. With just how many Destiny videos are out there, that use the word 'cheese'. It's hilarious. It's literally everywhere. I just posted some funny pictures. That's it. No commentary. After that post, my next two to three were just posting about the nightfall. My thoughts on it. How we did. Go look. I was on topic. It was then YOU then jumped in and made this comment right below, exaggerating to great effect. If anything, this here is flaming. "p.s.sometimes I really don't understand destiny's community.
Complaining about cheese, only to cheese themselves. Complaining about to little content, only to run past everything you can run past. Complaining how not fun and bad this game is, only to play it every day and talk an hour a day about it on Reddit. Complaining about there is nothing left to do, while having played 400+ hours. That is 20+ prestiges worth of COD time!!!!!edit. And the above comment you made is fine. I'll discuss it. Anything is open game to me. But let's not single me out as the antichrist.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Mar 18, 2015 13:20:30 GMT -5
You said this nightfall was too long, and especially complained you can't even skip a part. That sounds in direct conflict with the fact that everyone thinks this game lacks content (which I agree with btw). That is why I said it, and I didn't even direct it directly at you. It was a (funny) general statement. No reason to get upset about it. But lets stop policing. You think I am a fanboy, I think you are a hater. Nothing wrong with that . As long as the discussion doesn't suffer from it. I just like to play the devils advocate, especially when invalid arguments are made.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Mar 18, 2015 13:25:48 GMT -5
Destiny is designed to appeal to a broad audience, and one of the ways they accomplish this is by making skill not really matter. The game does not force you to learn different skills, and test them. It is designed such that you will reach a level by investing time (regardless of skill), you will be able to complete anything so long as you are a high enough level. One way they accomplish this is by making the bosses nothing more than enormous bullet sponges, and including cheese spots to use on higher difficulty levels.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 13:30:49 GMT -5
Qpie,
I said absolutely nothing that was 'invalid'. That's ridiculous. I said this below:
"Witty and I two-manned it last night, it wasn't that bad, or hard. Just tedious. Ominigul strike has that extra section, and none can be run through....so it's just to long. I just ran the arc scout rifle the whole time. "
What's so earth shattering negative about it? Really? This is what i mean by people on here getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to uptight about negative comments to this game. What i said was NOTHING. Hardly that much more hard hitting, from what PostMortem said, who also said it was 'to long'...and the other five or six people, who had negative comments about this Strike a few weeks ago, not liking it.
PS. I don't think you are a fanboy. I honestly can't keep track of everyone's opinions. Especially you PS guys. I get all of you confused, and tend to blur you all together at times.
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Post by qupie guest on Mar 18, 2015 13:55:14 GMT -5
Invalid was about other topics, like the xur topic. Since we were generalising stuff in here anyway.
Other then that, if somebody else said it as well, why are you the one going in defense?
You started saying things like:
Are we so sensitive about this game, that we view any criticism of it as now being characterized as ....
"is so awfully, regretfully, completely and utterly broken and Foxtroted up and horrible"
AFTER that, I started to state things about your overall negativity. not the other way around. You said some unneeded negative things about destiny, I said some unneeded negative thing about the community. That was it. So please don't start the blame game.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 14:00:27 GMT -5
Invalid was about other topics, like the xur topic. Since we were generalising stuff in here anyway. Other then that, if somebody else said it as well, why are you the one going in defense? Hardly on the 'defense'. I am talking to you. You said something to me, I replied back. That's just being polite. You would prefer me to ignore you?
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Post by GodMars on Mar 18, 2015 14:18:43 GMT -5
Complaining about to little content, only to run past everything you can run past. Complaining how not fun and bad this game is, only to play it every day and talk an hour a day about it on Reddit. Complaining about there is nothing left to do, while having played 400+ hours. That is 20+ prestiges worth of COD time!!!!! Outside of maybe EVE Online, these are the same things that get said every MMO on the market. Yes, even WoW once upon a time. Same, broken-record BS from the player base.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 14:50:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't necessarily call it 'bvllshit'. If everyone is complaining about it, then maybe a company should try to find a solution for something better.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Mar 18, 2015 15:16:34 GMT -5
Let me just say, the amount of content in the game isn't an issue.
There are legitimate complaints about the usage of said content. For example, there are multiple armor designs and perks, but most of them go unused, because if you want to be max level, you need to equip Raid/Iron Banner armor. There are tons of different weapons, but at a certain point you use Exotic/Raid/Iron Banner weapons almost exclusively, because they never refresh the perks of the weapons at the vendors. There are plenty of activities, but the rewards system encourages players to do the same set of things 3 times, week after week, some of which aren't even fun.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 18, 2015 15:27:26 GMT -5
I dunno if they ever will do it...
But one thing that I particularily liked from a mmo I played a lot, DDO, was their crafting. You accumulate mats, and based on a recipe that the player base experimented with, could craft weapons and armour for what you wanted.
So you would run to get mats to make weapons... then you run raids to get higher end mats to ad perks to that weapon... same thing with armour. They also allowed player training too.
Tons of fun, didn't feel like a grind, it was cool
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Post by GodMars on Mar 18, 2015 15:28:42 GMT -5
I wouldn't necessarily call it 'bvllshit'. If everyone is complaining about it, then maybe a company should try to find a solution for something better. Content takes development time, and it is completely unreasonable to expect a dev to keep up with the pace set by people who dedicate hundreds of hours to a single game over a short amount of time. Now, if Destiny PvP was better, there'd be far less bitching about content.
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Post by iw5000 on Mar 18, 2015 15:32:21 GMT -5
I would agree with that. Based on what PostMortem posted in a link he put up, Bungie is saying that only like 10-15% of the people playing these days play the Crucible. I'm going to guess that most of them when they do play it, are only doing it because they have too (bounties, IB, etc..)
There are a ton of easy fixes, but for some reason, Bungie just doesn't seem to care.
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Post by GodMars on Mar 18, 2015 15:48:32 GMT -5
I would agree with that. Based on what PostMortem posted in a link he put up, Bungie is saying that only like 10-15% of the people playing these days play the Crucible. I'm going to guess that most of them when they do play it, are only doing it because they have too (bounties, IB, etc..) There are a ton of easy fixes, but for some reason, Bungie just doesn't seem to care. I doubt they don't care. I'd assume it's a matter of resource allocation and technical/coding constraints. PvP needs a significant overhaul, and you aren't going to get that in a patch or minor DLC release. I'd hope for Comet in the fall. I'd fully expect to see real change in Destiny 2.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Mar 19, 2015 9:17:02 GMT -5
Dumb question.... Is Comet going to be Destiny 2? Or is it DLC 3 for destiny 1? Because I agree with GodMars... Nothing substantial is going to be fixed for PVP... hell, for anything really game related, until Destiny 2. I'm mean, they'll patch an exploit that affects players immediately... but an entire systematic overhaul... in a DLC? Nononono
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