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Post by iw5000 on Jun 22, 2015 15:32:17 GMT -5
You are right on a purely technical level, but on a psychological level, ...you most certainly do walk away at times feeling empty handed. "Feeling" being the operative word. Watch a first timer player finish Crota run and get a shader. You want to tell me that person felt like he won something? Hell no lol. Same for a lot of things. I'm not feeling great after a NF, if I got a few Ascendent Shards a prize. Nope. Not saying, "hey, at least I'm not empty handed, I have shards!!" Nope. Hell yes he felt something! I remember the first time we completed crota. I really can't remember if I got anything, but we beat crota! that was the achievement. The raids in this game are awesome (crota not as much as VoG) and the first few times we completed them it felt simply awesome. I can't seem to grasp your oppinion on loot. On the one hand you seem to want a game without look because winning is a reward in itself, but on the other hand you seem to want loot for defeating the hardest challenge in the game. Defeating that challange is the reason you have been collecting loot, defeating it is the reward itself imho. (sure, after the first few clears the loot becomes more and more important) I wasn't addressing any big picture opinions on loot. Only that specific point qupie said. From a design standpoint.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 22, 2015 15:37:10 GMT -5
b) It does not have any limitations on how many people to have in your party. Any number between 2 and 9 is fine, you don't need to worry too much about too few (< 3) or too many (> 6); This is the big one actually. Which is why cod (or regular crucible) is very nice to play as a group. It really bothered me in the beginning of playing destiny. I would for example go play with some RL friends that night. Some ppl invite me to VOG, and I go in. Half an hour later my RL friends get online but cannot join. It was really a drawback. But once ppl started understanding it was simply the way it worked at least nobody blamed eachother. But still, normal multiplayer is great for that single reason. I am glad crucible is getting better (both in gameplay and rewards) so we actually play crucible with a big group lately.
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 22, 2015 15:38:05 GMT -5
Quick thought on "Grinding" There needs to be a distinction with this word. Grinding in and by itself won't bother many people if the goals are clearly defined. Take CoD. I know if I play 'x' number of games, perform a certain way, I know I can be level 42 in a few hours, and then have various things unlocked. All ready to use in future games. That is "Grinding", but grinding for attainable goals. I grind...I get what I want. Destiny? Much of Destiny's version of grinding, is grinding for the sake of an 'opportunity' to get something. There is a huge difference. I would like to get x, y, and z...but I can't get these things outright. I have to grind three nightfalls for example, to have an opportunity to get what I need. Yes, this is how MMO's play. I get it. But over time, this version of grinding can play an entirely different effect on a person, which is what the Forbes article touched upon. Take myself for example. I need EL. I can't get it playing solo (which is how most people play). Can I get it? I could 'grind' through some Nightfalls, but I would only be getting an opportunity or chance at it. Right now? How I feel at this moment? I want to level up guns and gear...but the thought of GRINDING a few nightfalls solo just makes me not want to play. Now, If I knew I could get EL upon completion? I be into it. But I can't. It's just a chance. A chance I mostly see as bullshit, after burned so much. So I just don't bother. I guess my counterpoint would be, you want to play solo and level up your guns and gear with EL...for what purpose? Your current guns and gear are more than adequate for any soloable or matchmade activity, so what difference does it make if you can level them up or not? My other counterpoint would be you can very easily grind and get exactly what you want if you can find two other people to do PoE with, which shouldn't be that hard to do if you really want to do it -- a lot easier than finding a full group to raid with, anyway. The level 32 and 34 versions aren't that challenging and take 30 - 45 minutes per run so they're not a huge time-sink either. I know your situation over the last month has been in flux due to your remodeling/redecorating and whatnot, but this isn't really anything new. No endgame stuff was ever intended to be soloable, it was always designed to require teaming up with some friends. I'm not sure why it seems to be an issue now but wasn't before. Or maybe it was before, but I just didn't pick up on it. I dunno. Also, as far as Trials being a flop, I don't know how you can say that when you haven't actually played it. That just doesn't compute for me. Were you able to try the Elimination playlist for the week it was up? That was basically Trials Lite with no barriers to entry or special rewards. My points up there had nothing to do with my own playing status, how much or how little I get on. I'm not feeling any personal level of dissatisfaction because I have played 'x' % less time lately. It what it is. Sometimes you play more, sometimes less. No big deal. I was speaking to the above 'grinding' comment purely from a design standpoint, in relation to the thread topic (or at least the link I posted). How do designers balance the task of keeping present active players happy, while finding a way to get new people in. It's interesting. And I see the word 'grind' pop up quite a bit in the comments, and now used interchangeably with CoD. I think people on here need to be careful with that. The two aren't really the same thing. Especially if you were designing a game. I think Destiny's 'grinding' process would force developers to be more cognizant of losing people, due to frustrations. Developers then needing to be aware of this when making the game, say as opposed to CoD developers. Then tying this in to the article I linked. Again, ...this has NOTHING to do with me on a personal level, I have most everything in this game (other than a Ghorn and all the new DLC stuff - which I would like to try.)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 22, 2015 15:44:25 GMT -5
Like me? My first Crota, I got the warlock bond, mats, and the Swordbreaker which was a sack of garbage (prebuff and I was in my "shotgun-r-$hit" phase) and I broke it down. 2nd time, I got mats and the Glohoo shader. Both were awesome, awesome experiences. If one goes into a raid with a "______ or bust" outlook, one is setting themselves up for failure. Destiny is not, "do this, get that"/black and white as other games. One can accept it or fight it. Aren't you now just pretty much agreeing with my original point, which you were going against? All grinding is not the same. When we use that word, especially interchanging CoD grinding with Destiny grinding, we should be a bit careful. The two aren't really the same thing. That's all I was really saying with that point. The two have completely different psychological effects from a designing standpoint. What I was going against, was the concept of "doing _____ for a specific reward of _____".... that if one does something, one should get the reward they want out of it... like Call of Duty, where if I get to level #, I unlock ________. I was stating that in Destiny, one should never do _____ and expect the specific reward of _____... that my lottery example, one should play the lottery to win, but never expect to win.
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 22, 2015 15:46:21 GMT -5
I know your situation over the last month has been in flux due to your remodeling/redecorating and whatnot, but this isn't really anything new. No endgame stuff was ever intended to be soloable, it was always designed to require teaming up with some friends. I'm not sure why it seems to be an issue now but wasn't before. Or maybe it was before, but I just didn't pick up on it. I dunno. Just saw this, upon re-reading. I'm not saying it's an issue. I'm not upset. I was speaking on a design standpoint. People were comparing it to CoD, as ToO in many respects has the look of a CoD style mode, rather than a Raid mode. What would be a better word to use? I bought the DLC and haven't tried it yet. It has been a flop for me. Again, I was pretty clear, I'm not saying it sucks or anything negative about it. I even said I will probably enjoy it if I get to it. Was only speaking how it has been for me so far. If you went and bought something for yourself (new mountain bike, climbing gear, etc..), and didn't use it.... what would you call it for yourself? idk. Anyways, would 'inconclusive' be a better word choice?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 22, 2015 15:47:30 GMT -5
What would be a better word to use? I bought the DLC and haven't tried it yet. It has been a flop for me. Again, I was pretty clear, I'm not saying it sucks or anything negative about it. I even said I will probably enjoy it if I get to it. Was only speaking how it has been for me so far. Would 'inconclusive' be a better word choice? would you have gotten into it, if you weren't doing home renos? (that is what you have been doing... right?)
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 22, 2015 15:54:35 GMT -5
What would be a better word to use? I bought the DLC and haven't tried it yet. It has been a flop for me. Again, I was pretty clear, I'm not saying it sucks or anything negative about it. I even said I will probably enjoy it if I get to it. Was only speaking how it has been for me so far. Would 'inconclusive' be a better word choice? would you have gotten into it, if you weren't doing home renos? (that is what you have been doing... right?) Well, yeah, of course I would have bought it. It's the only game I am playing these days, so I was getting it regardless of what is happening in my life. And while the Taken DLC seems iffy, i'll most likely give in and get it. I'll probably also do the silly/dumb $80 thing too. I'm dumb like that, they'll get me. yes, we put new floors in on our second floor. That's done, but touch up stuff has now spawned off of it, like painting retouching, some new furniture, etc...And now we are (well...me) trying to refinish the steps going to the 3rd floor and coming up from the first. Dumb move there, as I have gotten in over my head. It's hectic. Also, my headset is still not working, at least I don't think it is (haven't checked with a live person in a week or two). Also still kayaking, plus grappling, etc..Doing those things a lot more this summer, as I'm not house-locked like last summer.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 22, 2015 15:59:02 GMT -5
Are you using the XONE stereo headset or something else? Both Tim and I had issues with our older generation headsets, and once we switched to the XONE stereo headset things are back to normal. Also sounds like you won't be playing a lot for the next a few weeks either. Hopefully we can do some catch up together once we are both (fully) back
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 22, 2015 16:00:28 GMT -5
good luck with the home renos... my house is over 100 years old, and I'm scared as $hit to do renos as when I start opening up stuff, it'll be hell to do and hellishly expensive (a lot of houses the same age in my neighborhood have asbestos in the plaster walls, for example... that can'd be done DYI unless I want lung cancer)
I think once the renos calm down, the headset issue gets fixed, and you get comfortable with it, you'll really enjoy ToO... especially with the Guardibros willing to help you out.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 22, 2015 16:14:05 GMT -5
Destiny solo really isn't that bad, and it's become even more accessible now for players with few friends. I'm one of them. While most of you guys have been running raids since VoG released I've only run it twice and never CE. I've spent the majority of my time playing Destiny completely solo. So what? I played Iron Banner, I did patrols and bounties, I soloed weeklies back when there was no MM for that. Sure, the end game activities require you to form your own group. But there's still stuff to do solo. I think solo is only a problem if you're both solo and a hardcore player. Then maybe you run out of things to do. But most hardcore players have networked their way into having friends to play with or have turned to LFG sites.
I've bemoaned not being able to do some things in the past due to not having a crew, and not being willing to use LFG sites. But really... not using them is a choice. I've played many games that are far FAR less playable solo, that out right oppose solo play in their mechanics. It's a thing. The game is intended to be a social experience. That is the reason there's no MM for some activities. Because Destiny is not meant to be a single player game with slightly more, (and sometimes less) intelligent companions. It's not for everybody. That's unfortunate, but it is what it is.
Really I'd say make some friends with peeps who are up late or LFG it up. It really shouldn't be difficult to get peeps for PoE. I've already run PoE32 more times than I've done raids. Looking forward to my first PoE34, hopefully sometime soon, whenever peeps are available.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 22, 2015 16:33:25 GMT -5
One thing we touched upon (many times) is the topic of grinding. On that front, there is a new game, called "Battleborn", coming out this holiday season that is taking a completely new approach: have all the leveling up done within the span of a single competitive MP match. battleborn.com/en/news/view/en-battleborn-the-story-the-heroes-and-the-play-modes/This sounds intriguing to me if it is as good as it sounds. The ability to have fun with lots of different skill trees without having to grind would be a refreshing change of pace, especially for players like me who have limited play time.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 22, 2015 16:50:30 GMT -5
Is there any longer term progression, though? Also MOBAs have been doing that for a while. I find it a bit of a pain in the arse in those games, because you don't have time to sit there and really weigh your options. You gotta spend your points, buy your items and get back to your Foxtroting lane! One of the main reasons I don't bother playing them, because I don't want to be gimped by not having memorized the entire store of items and the builds I might want to use before the game. Especially with the number of characters to use it feels like you have to study and memorize a huge amount of stuff before you can even think about playing for real... which doesn't sound fun at all. heh (Speaking of MOBA's that is. I haven't looked into this game, yet...)
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 22, 2015 16:56:11 GMT -5
Is there any longer term progression, though? Also MOBAs have been doing that for a while. I find it a bit of a pain in the arse in those games, because you don't have time to sit there and really weigh your options. You gotta spend your points, buy your items and get back to your Foxtroting lane! One of the main reasons I don't bother playing them, because I don't want to be gimped by not having memorized the entire store of items and the builds I might want to use before the game. Especially with the number of characters to use it feels like you have to study and memorize a huge amount of stuff before you can even think about playing for real... which doesn't sound fun at all. heh (Speaking of MOBA's that is. I haven't looked into this game, yet...) Your concern makes a lot sense to me. I can now see why MOBA community tends to be toxic against new players (as I was told). Although this system does not require physical grinding on the character, the amount of stuff to be memorized by the player can be a great burden. Noobs will have a really difficult time due to that reason. I have never played a MOBA game, and 2K insists that Battleborn is not MOBA. I guess we will have to wait and see how well this game can "disrupt" the FPS genre, if at all.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 22, 2015 17:04:39 GMT -5
On a lighter node, Cryptarch made an "insightful" remark today on Twitter: Wonder what kind of "mistake" Oryx the TTK is going to make...
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 22, 2015 17:09:36 GMT -5
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 22, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5
They will probably get away with it. The British will get done over because of the exchange rate, although this isn't unique to Destiny. It is pretty aggressive from them to charge that much considering the games being released in and around when the DLC is being released but I'm not surprised that it has led to this. This is why I kept on about activity lockout when DLC is in rotation because that was the tester. I mean for £40 you could just buy The Witcher 3 instead. Thing is, the DLC was originally priced at £28 for UK based players, which is equivalent to $40.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 22, 2015 18:44:17 GMT -5
Even at $40 US I'm on the fence. Sure some of it sounds interesting but the fact that nearly all the enemies are just retextures sounds like more of the same. I feel like TDB was a $10 DLC that cost $20, HoW was a $15 DLC that cost $20, and TK is really a $25, maybe $30 value for $40+...
I haven't had to make any purchasing decisions with regards to Destiny since before I even played beta, because I took a leap of faith up front and got the digital guardian edition. But for TK I have a choice to make and $40 pretty much could get me a new game or near enough to one that I wouldn't mind making up the difference.
Then with the feeling that we're being indirectly and now directly disrespected over this pack in stuff you can't get without spending $80 even if you own the game and DLCs... eh... It doesn't give me warm and fuzzies about TK.
I'm really enjoying HoW era Destiny, but TK may be the death of Destiny #1 for me. If I don't buy it I'm checking out until the sequel. I'll probably need my free time for Battlefront and No Man's Sky anyway... As is there's too much competition coming up for me to feel good about spending $40 for TK unless it's amazeballs, and so far it doesn't sound like there's a new planet or anything. It sounds like just another DLC with maybe 1.8X the content or so. (Still only one new Raid rather than 2 so not quite 2X.)
This "new enemy faction" is barely that... I dunno... I was a little excite at first and now I'm growing more meh. I need to focus on playing through CE and having fun in HoW era Destiny before TK comes out... just in case.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Jun 22, 2015 19:21:05 GMT -5
good luck with the home renos... my house is over 100 years old, and I'm scared as $hit to do renos as when I start opening up stuff, it'll be hell to do and hellishly expensive (a lot of houses the same age in my neighborhood have asbestos in the plaster walls, for example... that can'd be done DYI unless I want lung cancer) I think once the renos calm down, the headset issue gets fixed, and you get comfortable with it, you'll really enjoy ToO... especially with the Guardibros willing to help you out. So, igloos have asbestos problems? I would think a thicker layer of blubber would provide enough insulation.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Jun 22, 2015 19:23:06 GMT -5
Even at $40 US I'm on the fence. Sure some of it sounds interesting but the fact that nearly all the enemies are just retextures sounds like more of the same. I feel like TDB was a $10 DLC that cost $20, HoW was a $15 DLC that cost $20, and TK is really a $25, maybe $30 value for $40+... I haven't had to make any purchasing decisions with regards to Destiny since before I even played beta, because I took a leap of faith up front and got the digital guardian edition. But for TK I have a choice to make and $40 pretty much could get me a new game or near enough to one that I wouldn't mind making up the difference. Then with the feeling that we're being indirectly and now directly disrespected over this pack in stuff you can't get without spending $80 even if you own the game and DLCs... eh... It doesn't give me warm and fuzzies about TK. I'm really enjoying HoW era Destiny, but TK may be the death of Destiny #1 for me. If I don't buy it I'm checking out until the sequel. I'll probably need my free time for Battlefront and No Man's Sky anyway... As is there's too much competition coming up for me to feel good about spending $40 for TK unless it's amazeballs, and so far it doesn't sound like there's a new planet or anything. It sounds like just another DLC with maybe 1.8X the content or so. (Still only one new Raid rather than 2 so not quite 2X.) This "new enemy faction" is barely that... I dunno... I was a little excite at first and now I'm growing more meh. I need to focus on playing through CE and having fun in HoW era Destiny before TK comes out... just in case. I think I'll drop the 40 bones...there's actually quite a bit of content. Of course, Battlefront will compete for time, as well as my ongoing grappling with sobriety.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 3:23:21 GMT -5
Even at $40 US I'm on the fence. Sure some of it sounds interesting but the fact that nearly all the enemies are just retextures sounds like more of the same. I feel like TDB was a $10 DLC that cost $20, HoW was a $15 DLC that cost $20, and TK is really a $25, maybe $30 value for $40+... I haven't had to make any purchasing decisions with regards to Destiny since before I even played beta, because I took a leap of faith up front and got the digital guardian edition. But for TK I have a choice to make and $40 pretty much could get me a new game or near enough to one that I wouldn't mind making up the difference. Then with the feeling that we're being indirectly and now directly disrespected over this pack in stuff you can't get without spending $80 even if you own the game and DLCs... eh... It doesn't give me warm and fuzzies about TK. I'm really enjoying HoW era Destiny, but TK may be the death of Destiny #1 for me. If I don't buy it I'm checking out until the sequel. I'll probably need my free time for Battlefront and No Man's Sky anyway... As is there's too much competition coming up for me to feel good about spending $40 for TK unless it's amazeballs, and so far it doesn't sound like there's a new planet or anything. It sounds like just another DLC with maybe 1.8X the content or so. (Still only one new Raid rather than 2 so not quite 2X.) This "new enemy faction" is barely that... I dunno... I was a little excite at first and now I'm growing more meh. I need to focus on playing through CE and having fun in HoW era Destiny before TK comes out... just in case. Don't quite agree with you there. Why is everybody setting such a low price value at those DLC's? CE got two strikes (at least for us), three MP maps, a (small) raid, and some story. Also allot of new gear was added. HoW got one strike (which kinda bums me out), four MP maps, PoE, some better but still small story. And also allot new gear. I view ToO as something the game should have added in the beginning personally. Everybody should have acces to it. That is not bad for $20 if you ask me. I don't have much to compare it to, but it is probably better value than COD (comparable number of MP maps, and a zombie/alien map, which could be seen as a mini raid) and comparable or slightly less value than Titanfall (only three maps, but those were huge and cheap). Warhammer online, a MMO I played for two months or so, had me paying a monthly fee which did only grant updates every few months or so. Even if you are not a grinder or Touch Football player, and just want to play through it once, it gives you about 6-8? hours of gameplay per expansion, excluding the MP content. That is not bad for that price tag. Allot of $65 games only give me about 11-12 hours of gameplay. (With no oppertunity to replay it for rewards or any of that stuff, but I would like to leave that out of the equation) The TK has saturn and the dreadnought as new locations as far as I am aware. On the emotes, yeah that still kinda sucks. I hope we will get them with the season pass or something. That would be a good (and smart) way to save their skin. It would be what I would do if I was Bungie.
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 23, 2015 5:54:44 GMT -5
Do they still make games that finish in 10 hours? I haven't seen them anymore. Halo, CoD, Destiny for me... no time limits. Even GTA V, i never touched the Multiplayer, finished the game itself, and it still has playability.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 6:16:58 GMT -5
I am not counting the search all dead ghosts/keys/music notes kind of thing. I am talking main story and major side quests.
CoD never got more than 10 hours of gameplay appart from multiplayer, nor did battlefield hardline. Ass2in creed was also not too long, but I only played the old ones.
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 23, 2015 7:37:54 GMT -5
I am not counting the search all dead ghosts/keys/music notes kind of thing. I am talking main story and major side quests. CoD never got more than 10 hours of gameplay appart from multiplayer, nor did battlefield hardline. Ass2in creed was also not too long, but I only played the old ones. You can't really use the above CoD example, as something for a short game. Buying CoD and just playing the campaign, is like getting the House of Wolves and only doing the 1-2 hour long Varik story line.
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 23, 2015 7:44:06 GMT -5
Are you using the XONE stereo headset or something else? Both Tim and I had issues with our older generation headsets, and once we switched to the XONE stereo headset things are back to normal. Also sounds like you won't be playing a lot for the next a few weeks either. Hopefully we can do some catch up together once we are both (fully) back I have the older generation one
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 8:25:08 GMT -5
I am not counting the search all dead ghosts/keys/music notes kind of thing. I am talking main story and major side quests. CoD never got more than 10 hours of gameplay appart from multiplayer, nor did battlefield hardline. Ass2in creed was also not too long, but I only played the old ones. You can't really use the above CoD example, as something for a short game. Buying CoD and just playing the campaign, is like getting the House of Wolves and only doing the 1-2 hour long Varik story line. Well, it is the comparison I am trying to make, but you should include PoE in there imho. Multiplayer is just as subjective as grinding in terms of how much time you will put in it. So that would be about 2-3 hour story, 30 minutes strike and 2-3 hours PoE imho. But yeah I never buy games with single player only, for that single reason. 60 euros is allot for ~10 hours of gameplay. And without multiplayer, you won't get much more out of a game imho. Could be wrong though, and I should maybe be looking into other games more. Now I think of it, I also played fable and saits row, but those games also got around that much time put into it before (enough) completion.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 23, 2015 8:35:56 GMT -5
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 8:44:37 GMT -5
Just give us Fate of all Fools I really really hope they actually give us something better. Otherwise the anti-hype train will gain too much momentum. This will probably still mean day one players who were stupid/smart/greedy/wasted/rich enough to buy the legendary edition will get both of those rewards... Which I am totally fine with, but the internet probably won't. I don't think everybody will drop this unless they get EVERYTHING new players can get. Now Bungie, is your time to shine. The upcoming days will dictate a great part of the popularity of your next DLC (how stupid that might sound, it is probably true... we are still only talking 9 cosmetic items...)
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Post by iw5000 on Jun 23, 2015 8:44:42 GMT -5
"Please know that we're reading this feedback and taking it as seriously - as we always do. Destiny is a great game because we worked together to make it that way over the course of the past year. That partnership has not changed."
Complaining works.
Remember that.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 8:55:41 GMT -5
Yeah, that is one of the strong points of destiny, but also one of its pitfalls. The grind got too small for allot of very loyal players for example.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 23, 2015 9:13:31 GMT -5
So, igloos have asbestos problems? I would think a thicker layer of blubber would provide enough insulation. Pre 1930's yes... then they discovered that the seals/whales were eatting fish coated in asbestos and the blubber got tainted. So hard to find natural, organic, untainted blubber these days... and when you can, oy vey, the price!
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