hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 4, 2015 14:00:28 GMT -5
With all the new weapons and perks included with HoW, the removal of some old perks from certain weapon types, and the new emphasis on PvP thanks to the Trials of Osiris, I figured this might come in handy for anyone trying to determine what vendor weapons to buy, whether to keep, reforge, or shard new weapons from engrams or Nightfall rewards, and so on. Reddit has a few great threads on this, so I'll link them with their relevant weapon type below. Auto Rifles: Not worth using in PvP, in all honesty. They're terrible. Even Suros. Pulse Rifles: Red Death is great, otherwise look here for some good legendary options: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/37zd20/guide_to_pulse_rifle_rolls/Scout Rifles: I don't use them and reddit doesn't have a thread on them either. Hand Cannons: Thorn and The Last Word are borderline OP. Maybe not even borderline, just OP. Fusion Rifles: Generally outclassed by Thorn/snipers/shotguns, but here's the reforge thread anyway: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/381w5x/house_of_wolves_fusion_reforge_thread/Sniper Rifles: Lots of options here. High impact ones are great for Trials as they're able to headshot kill a freshly revived player, though most of the new HoW snipers don't fit that criteria: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/37fqub/snipers_reforging/Shotguns: Felwinter's is still top tier, but is no longer the best there is: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/37auty/house_of_wolves_shotgun_reforge_megathread/Machine Guns: First, don't use these in Trials, ever -- use a Rocket Launder instead. Anything from the low ROF, high impact archtype is preferred as they're the lowest TTK and only need 3 headshots to do it. HoW machine guns can no longer roll field scout. Instead they can get casket mag, which doesn't seem to increase the mag capacity as much as field scout did, and it also causes a reduction in stability. Pre-HoW MGs like Against All Odds or Jolder's Hammer are still great choices. EDIT: Here's a new thread that popped up today on reddit: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/39xtdh/machine_guns_reforging/Rocket Launchers: Truth and Gjallarhorn are both fantastic but chew up your exotic slot, which should probably be occupied by Thorn/TLW/Red Death instead. Basically anything with proximity detonation and more than 1 shot per mag is great for use in Trials, but if you want to go all out look here: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/38gj2q/rocket_launcher_research_velocity_blast_and/. Outside of Trials, MGs are probably a better choice if you're looking to rack up a nice long killing spree. Here's a second, more recent reforge thread: www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/38zx7n/house_of_wolves_rocket_launcher_reforge_guide/
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 4, 2015 14:17:04 GMT -5
I think fusion rifles are situational. Shotguns can be risky in Trials of Osiris, for example, so FR's may be preferred by some.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 4, 2015 15:06:31 GMT -5
Agreed that they're situational, but the problem is generally that Thorn beats FRs on the outside half of FR range, and shotguns/TLW beat FRs on the inside half. Before the nerf they were great, but there's almost no range where an FR is the best choice anymore.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 4, 2015 15:21:29 GMT -5
I'm just going by what I read about ToO, but I can definitely see how running a shotgun could be risky there. Getting killed in trials is one thing. Getting killed with your enemy standing right over you preventing revives, is another. I think for a backup weapon shotgun would still be pretty great, but if you're really utilizing you special then maybe not so much.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Jun 4, 2015 16:08:50 GMT -5
The Fusion Rifle nerf from the last patch makes them second tier, now. Totally agree on the hand cannons. At least nerf the range.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 4, 2015 16:21:49 GMT -5
I don't know if hand cannons really need another range nerf across the board. Seems like it's really just the exotics that are OP.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 4, 2015 17:26:57 GMT -5
The exotic hand cannons are out of control. I'm so sick of the Thorn. Everyone uses it, and I can't even blame them. There's no reason not to - low TTK, tons of aim assist, easy to use, and it prevents health recovery for an extra few seconds. I hope they nerf the hell out of it so I can hear all of the complaints from scrubs who need to learn how to actually play.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jun 4, 2015 21:27:53 GMT -5
Yeah it needs a nerf. I just hope I get to enjoy it a little first. ;3
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 5, 2015 2:17:37 GMT -5
Good post, I have quite some research and experimenting last weeks, and this is what I found (some info might be double)
AR, they are bad, but not as bad as everyone thinks. One AR in a team can actually help allot, one hit will often grearly reduce ttk from teammates weapons. Middle arch type has a pretty good ttk actually, compared to other LEGENDARIES
Pulse rifles, they are pretty good if you are good with it. I never really saw the benefits. If you don't get all those optimal hits, you have lower ttk than autos. Red death and juju have great perks though.
Scout rifles, I have used the one/one syntheneste from vanguard with full auto and Zen moment allot, and it rocks mid range! It fires slightly faster than VoC, enough to keep some constant damage on the opponent. VoC and slower scouts with full auto simply feel weird in crucible imho. High damage scouts without full auto can be viable, but only on certain maps/engagements and you are very used to them.
Hand cannons. Thorn and tlw are OP, hawkmoon slightly less so, because you need some luck. I never thought they were until I started using them myself for extended periods. Once you get a feel for the recoil it just gets cheesy. Other than that high ROF, high aim assist, legendary handcannons rock. I am really trying to get a revelator with hidden hand and something else nice. They will never be exotic though.
Shotguns are great as long as you hit the range cap, the matador and judgement arch types are the best imho, paired with shot package.
Snipers, three good arch types. Low ROF for normal crusible, mid ROF for trials (ldr/queens sniper) to headshot through revive shields. Third is the spear archetype WITH last round. If you are not using last round pick one of the other two.
Fusions are ok, get a high damage/range one with accelerated coils.
Rockets, velocity is most important, blast radius second. Grenades and horseshoes is the best perk. Try to get trypot/field scout with that. Truth rocks, and gjallor as well to a slightly lesser extent.
Lmg, the swarm archetype is the best imho, better than jolders. Because the have the same htk most of the time but better ROF, better at suppressing fire and are easier to aim.
Just my 2 cents
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 5, 2015 2:18:06 GMT -5
Double post
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 8, 2015 14:39:58 GMT -5
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 15, 2015 14:00:12 GMT -5
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 15, 2015 14:41:26 GMT -5
Really no point to reforging launchers for PvP - like they said, go and purchase the Dead Orbit launcher. Replace with the Trials launcher once it drops for you. It's not worth the mats to invest in rerolling for what would be such a negligible increase in performance.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 15, 2015 17:07:49 GMT -5
Quite often people seeking that minute extra goodness from a roll are those who are skint on the appropriate currencies and I would be wary if overspending on weapon parts as farming them is tedious.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 21, 2015 0:55:36 GMT -5
Regarding the reddit thread for shotty setup:
What does he mean by a "perfect full auto setup"?
The reason why I ask is because I got a Party Crasher +1 loot drop with Aggressive Ballistics + Full Auto + Reinforced Barrel + Final Round, which already look very good on paper. Wonder whether it is good enough or I need to consider re-roll to get Shot Package.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 21, 2015 12:57:58 GMT -5
Regarding the reddit thread for shotty setup: What does he mean by a "perfect full auto setup"? The reason why I ask is because I got a Party Crasher +1 loot drop with Aggressive Ballistics + Full Auto + Reinforced Barrel + Final Round, which already look very good on paper. Wonder whether it is good enough or I need to consider re-roll to get Shot Package. My interpretation of that was don't keep a full auto gun unless every other perk is top tier (aka perfect roll outside of full auto). Every other perk on yours is definitely top tier so I'd hang on to that one for sure. Wait until you get another PC+1, Matador, Felwinter's, or Judgment to drop and reroll that one for shot package if you want would be my advice.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 21, 2015 14:35:20 GMT -5
I agree. Keep the roll you have, they drop frequently enough that you'll get another soon that you can reroll.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jun 21, 2015 17:23:31 GMT -5
I ended up spending alot of time this week focusing on getting bette at Destiny PvP...and I'm pleasantly surprise to say it payed off. I started by rerolling one of my gen 1 felwinters with about 100 motes to get it with a semi-perfect shot package set up. I then finally leveled up my last word as I had previously been leaning on the thorn. I much prefer an up close and personal playstyle. I also practiced my blinking...a jump that I had been previously nervous to use in PvP.
I did one trials on my warlock with nothing manacles with The messenger, the Pocket Infinity, and a dreamwaker. Then I did two trials with a nighthawk/aclyophage gunslinger with TLW, Felwinters, and dreamwaker.
I'm working on getting the dragon strike pulse rifle as it outclasses the messenger with perfect rolls. I also like the idea of that dead orbit launcher.
Currently I think the only fusion rifle worth using is the pocket infinity and even then it serves a niche role. It straight hard counters a team full of aggressive blink shotgunners.
For people debating about full auto vs shot package... I'm now a firm believer in shot package for PvP and full auto for PvE. The difference is so noticeable.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jun 21, 2015 22:10:36 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Since I also have a naked metador, I am going to keep this PC+1. Out of the 3 top tier shotties, PC+1 is probably the only one that is OK to have Full Auto since it has higher fire rate. I also agree with Dumien on getting better at "blinking". Although I haven't played with it in PvP, I played with it on both Warlock and Hunter in PvE and I think that I started to have a feel on how it works. If you can master its timing, it is a very deadly move in PvP.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 22, 2015 9:07:11 GMT -5
I have been trying blink a little as well, but the sunsinger is simply really really good in trials (selfrez is overrated, flame shield and fire bolt are tha real MVP), and blade dancer is not a very effective super in trials imho. As long as the opposing team communicates they can team-kill you pretty easily. That is why I put my blinking business on the side for now. Floating above doorways can also have spectacular results. My setup is always: Thorn, Matador (shot package with full range, no 2nd perk), Radagast fury (tripod and grenades and horse shoes). This week I only played three passages, and there were some filthy tactics used. Ppl get smarter at ToO to compensate for lack of gunskill (or watch more youtube). Got to the lighthouse once nonetheless Got another double (messenger with solar). I really don't understand why ppl like pulse rifles... @ witty, shot package and full auto are two completely different shotgun classes. They are both top tier in their own respect. Depends what kind of player you are. More defensive: Shot package for that extra range. Aggressive (blink): Full auto. @ dumien, what is that dragen strike pulse rifle you speak off?
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 22, 2015 9:15:15 GMT -5
@ dumien, what is that dragen strike pulse rifle you speak off? Hopscotch Pilgrim.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 22, 2015 11:22:34 GMT -5
Thanks, looked it up and it looks pretty good. Not really better than messenger though, seems somewhat comparable to me at least.
It has less range, and the consensus on the internet seems to be that range increases the hitboxes, so that it is actually an important statistic. Have never been able to find prove on that though. Has anybody else some insight in the matter?
p.s. there was evidence on Reddit a few days ago that accelerated coils indeed lowers impact now I think of it. I tried to point it out months ago, but nobody believed me.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jun 22, 2015 12:47:19 GMT -5
From what I've been reading it's not necessarily range that increases the hitboxes, it has more to do with certain perks that increase range such as Send It and Hammer Forged which also grant increased accuracy or target acquisition. A Hopscotch Pilgrim rolled with braced frame and hidden hand should be a headshot machine. Max stability and very high aim assist.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 23, 2015 8:41:14 GMT -5
qupie I think he's talking about Hopscotch Pilgrim. I just got one, rolled until I got "good enough for now" perks to see if it's good enough I want to spend the motes for a perfect roll. I've only played one game of crucible since leveling it, but all three shots land in pretty much the same place.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 8:56:41 GMT -5
Hmm that sounds good. Do you have any stability increasing perks on it right now?
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 23, 2015 10:15:36 GMT -5
Yep...braced frame and hidden hand. Unfortunately it has Grave Robber.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jun 23, 2015 10:29:48 GMT -5
Most other perks are not THAT good though, are they? What are you aiming for except grave Robber?
I have a matador with shot package, rodeo and full range, and decided to keep it like that, because weapon parts are scarce for me. The other perks in that space or not really THAT good if you ask me. Will probably reroll one sooner or later though to get army of one or something.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 24, 2015 12:54:36 GMT -5
Well, I'm waiting to see whether it becomes a gun I want to use a lot. Grave Robber is completely useless in PvP, and I won't be using it in PvE. Pretty much all of the other perks in that tier are better. Third Eye would probably be best, but any of the reload perks or Battle Runner would be an upgrade over Grave Robber.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 1, 2015 1:13:00 GMT -5
Spent ~10 motes and got a pretty good roll on my Metador: Aggressive Ballistics, Shot Package, Rifled Barrel (increased range at the expense of slower reload) and Battle Runner (+sprint speed after kill). I am also happy that it has Arc Burn, because I already have 2 Felwinter's Lie at Solar & Void and Party Crasher + 1 at Void.
Also, what do you guys think of this Pulse Rifle?
Spare Change.25 (Impact / Range / Stability all better than Red Death) Rodeo (reduce severity of recoil) Braced Frame (more stability at the expense of mag size), probably not a very good one as mag size went from 24 -> 18 Headseeker (body shots increase precision damage)
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 1, 2015 5:17:01 GMT -5
Rodeo is really lackluster on pulse, snipers and scouts (at least reddit said so) Headseeker sounds nice, but after doing some calculations it rarely makes any difference. You could do the calculations for your pulse arche type, but it is probably lackluster as well.
Not a big fan of pulse rifles though, so take my advice with some salt.
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