banana
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Post by banana on Aug 6, 2015 12:12:17 GMT -5
It's funny seeing everybody use the Man-O-War as their AR of choice when it's a 3hk @600 (maybe even lower than 600) and the HVK-30 is a 4hk @900 which is a higher ttk + higher RoF is always nice
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 13:42:49 GMT -5
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 6, 2015 17:28:56 GMT -5
I am not sure whether we have any disagreement here:
1) seems to me that we agree that at the current stage of the FPS broadcasting, it is difficult for players who haven't played the game to appreciate watching the competition; 2) and in general for any spectator sports, players will always be able to appreciate watching the competition more than a non player;
In the future, when a "full court" view of the entire FPS battle field can be broadcasted, ideally in 3D, with the virtual equivalent of "camera" men taking multiple camera view at the real time, a broadcast director deciding which camera is the best to show at the moment, and commentators focusing on telling the audience the key moments of the competition, then sure, it can be a quite enjoyable spectating experience even for people who have never played the game.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Aug 6, 2015 21:33:59 GMT -5
It's funny seeing everybody use the Man-O-War as their AR of choice when it's a 3hk @600 (maybe even lower than 600) and the HVK-30 is a 4hk @900 which is a higher ttk + higher RoF is always nice Remember the R5 was super popular in MLG while being shite in pubs. It's because the MLG meta is shooting at foreheads across map.
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banana
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Post by banana on Aug 6, 2015 21:50:52 GMT -5
I didn't really see any headshots in the gameplay, on the bright side the kuda smg actually looks it deserves the popularity
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Aug 6, 2015 22:05:01 GMT -5
It's funny seeing everybody use the Man-O-War as their AR of choice when it's a 3hk @600 (maybe even lower than 600) and the HVK-30 is a 4hk @900 which is a higher ttk + higher RoF is always nice I figured nobody would use it since the RoF is so low even with the nonexistant recoil. It must have retarded 3HK range or something.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 7, 2015 9:12:26 GMT -5
It's way more complex than that. Pretty much every shooter has people most concerned with personal performance at the lower levels. yes. Of course everyone is concerned with personal performance. Doesn't that go without saying? No one plays a game to suck. The problem was/is, that it seemed like it was only CoD put soooooooooooooooooooooo much emphasis on one stat (KD ratio), when giving people a way to measure how they are doing. I played Quake, a lot of UT, Halo, fair amount of CS, some BF, and of course CoD (probably still missing a few games too)...all those games, and best I remember, only CoD seems to be so KD driven. Not one other game even comes close to obsessing over that stuff. And that's ALL on the developers of CoD. They MADE that happen by design.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 7, 2015 10:12:44 GMT -5
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 7, 2015 13:25:09 GMT -5
If you are interested in watch this but missed the live streaming, you can watch the replay at twitch. Personally I think it is pretty fun to watch. Halo 5 is friendly to CoD players with sprint / ADS / good automatic weapons, while still keeping its signature features like longer TTK, importance of headshots, focus on power weapon/item control, etc, so it is a lot easier than previous Halo titles for CoD players to relate.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Aug 7, 2015 13:42:36 GMT -5
I played Quake, a lot of UT, Halo, fair amount of CS, some BF, and of course CoD That is because one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong. CoD is focused on K/D because, unlike all those other games, it is unabashedly designed for casuals. It's only recently that they realized the potential of a competitive scene. Of course KD is going to be the measure of success, it's easier to have a positive spread than it is to win.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 7, 2015 14:06:21 GMT -5
I played Quake, a lot of UT, Halo, fair amount of CS, some BF, and of course CoD That is because one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong. CoD is focused on K/D because, unlike all those other games, it is unabashedly designed for casuals. It's only recently that they realized the potential of a competitive scene. Of course KD is going to be the measure of success, it's easier to have a positive spread than it is to win. Halo was Xbox's lead game for the console release in 2001. How is that not casual? It is. I couldn't even describe where to the find the KD ratio on my of Halo discs.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Aug 7, 2015 17:02:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure I completely follow this ban/protect crap.. Did I understand that correctly? That's not just a tournament setting right? It happens in Arena? The last thing I want to do is have to remake my class every single match. That in itself might be enough to throw me off of that mode completely. And ok, sure thing Vonderhaar, yes I guess it does add a 'metagame' but.. it's not a particularly good one. I guess I'll just try to ban Dead Silence and protect Awareness every match. Derp.
It also sounds like ranking up in Arena is purely based on chaining together win streaks. In other words at some point it will probably be impossible to continue moving up as a solo player and you'll have to party up with a roflstomp crew.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 7, 2015 17:44:37 GMT -5
I'm not sure I completely follow this ban/protect crap.. Did I understand that correctly? That's not just a tournament setting right? It happens in Arena? The last thing I want to do is have to remake my class every single match. That in itself might be enough to throw me off of that mode completely. And ok, sure thing Vonderhaar, yes I guess it does add a 'metagame' but.. it's not a particularly good one. I guess I'll just try to ban Dead Silence and protect Awareness every match. Derp. It also sounds like ranking up in Arena is purely based on chaining together win streaks. In other words at some point it will probably be impossible to continue moving up as a solo player and you'll have to party up with a roflstomp crew. Regarding Protect/Ban, your understanding is confirmed by Vonderhaar's Q & A: It may or may not be as big a disruption to loadout as it appears to be, we will have to see. For each game mode there are probably a handful of choices that are likely to be banned, adjust accordingly may not take much time. Regarding difficulty to move up at some point: I would imagine so in any ranked play system, but I guess it also depends on how much 1 or 2 player can carry a team. A strong player probably have an easier time carrying a team in Halo than in CoD (with the exception of SnD, and possibly UpLink?).
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Aug 7, 2015 17:59:57 GMT -5
That is because one of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong. CoD is focused on K/D because, unlike all those other games, it is unabashedly designed for casuals. It's only recently that they realized the potential of a competitive scene. Of course KD is going to be the measure of success, it's easier to have a positive spread than it is to win. Halo was Xbox's lead game for the console release in 2001. How is that not casual? It is. I couldn't even describe where to the find the KD ratio on my of Halo discs. Halo didn't have online Multiplayer back in 2001 on Xbox. That's probably why you can't find your K/D.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Aug 7, 2015 18:16:17 GMT -5
It just sounds like an awful solo experience. What fun is it if some random teammate drafts your preferred specialist ahead of you? I was just playing some BF: Hardline, fighting teammates in order to get to fly the chopper. There's no coordination with randoms, no teammwork. Everyone thinks they're the best pilot. Everyone gets mad if they don't get to fly. If you don't get to be pilot do you do something to help your team? Nope. If you're gunner you might wait for an opportunity to just steal the thing while the pilot is repairing. If you don't get into the chopper at all you might grab the transport and just try to ram the friendly pilot out of the air. It's 100% combative and ridiculous. I don't think ol' Vonderhaar understands the nature of your typical shooter player. They have an instant-drop system in place if you quit... to try to prevent quitting. Then on the other side they have anti-reverse-boosting, your rank can't fall below your skill. So really you can quit all day just to be a dick. Someone takes your specialist after you tell them not to on the mic? Quit right after the game starts. Who knows, maybe there will be tons of good specialists and it won't really matter. Just having watched that stream, I don't think they really addressed what torpedoed League Play last time around. And I don't like Vonderhaar. He's weird and looks like a cartoon turtle. Halo didn't have online Multiplayer back in 2001 on Xbox. That's probably why you can't find your K/D. Debatable. I know I played Halo a bit online, all you needed was some software to emulate a LAN over the internet and some patience. People were too happy that it was actually working to care all that much about their K/D in the actual game though. That does bring up the question, just who the hell started with all the global online stat tracking? Man what a mistake that was. Was that a Halo 2 thing? I think the first game I noticed it in was Battlefield 2, but I did miss a lot of FPS games in that era.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 7, 2015 18:40:28 GMT -5
Good points on potential chaos in ranked play over ban/protect and specialist draft when playing with random teammates. Here's hoping that when everybody are at similar skill level and really want to win, then they do try to work with each other. This is more often than not the case at the high ranks.
Once you played with some random good teammates where there are mutual respects, you can then team up.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Aug 7, 2015 21:25:35 GMT -5
Halo didn't have online Multiplayer back in 2001 on Xbox. That's probably why you can't find your K/D. Debatable. I know I played Halo a bit online, all you needed was some software to emulate a LAN over the internet and some patience. People were too happy that it was actually working to care all that much about their K/D in the actual game though. That does bring up the question, just who the hell started with all the global online stat tracking? Man what a mistake that was. Was that a Halo 2 thing? I think the first game I noticed it in was Battlefield 2, but I did miss a lot of FPS games in that era. I mean you could play online, you could play online on the PS2, doesn't mean it was viable. I never really played Halo 2 but from what I've read Halo 2 and 3 only had global rankings based on wins. You get XP based on wins and nothing else and your rank was determined by total XP. Again just what I've read, never played them. CoD however did the prestige system that gave XP at getting kills, captures, wins, challenges etc...so theoretically you can never win a single match and be max prestige. So if I were to put the blame on anyone it'd be CoD. Which is why I would say that Halo is much less casual than CoD. Maybe Halo is more casual than say CS or Quake, but I'd say it's more oriented towards competitive than CoD by a significant amount.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 7, 2015 21:54:21 GMT -5
Halo was Xbox's lead game for the console release in 2001. How is that not casual? It is. I couldn't even describe where to the find the KD ratio on my of Halo discs. Halo didn't have online Multiplayer back in 2001 on Xbox. That's probably why you can't find your K/D. Lol. Good point. Was it Halo 2 that had multiplayer? One of them did, and I played it before MW1.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 22:46:56 GMT -5
I never really played Halo 2 but from what I've read Halo 2 and 3 only had global rankings based on wins. You get XP based on wins and nothing else and your rank was determined by total XP. Again just what I've read, never played them. Well, winning and quitting at that. Social playlists in Halo 2/3 had a system where you'd get 1 pt for winning, 0 for losing, and -1 for quitting.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Aug 9, 2015 15:53:03 GMT -5
I don't think ol' Vonderhaar understands the nature of your typical shooter player. They have an instant-drop system in place if you quit... to try to prevent quitting. Then on the other side they have anti-reverse-boosting, your rank can't fall below your skill. So really you can quit all day just to be a dick. Someone takes your specialist after you tell them not to on the mic? Quit right after the game starts. Who knows, maybe there will be tons of good specialists and it won't really matter. Just having watched that stream, I don't think they really addressed what torpedoed League Play last time around. And I don't like Vonderhaar. He's weird and looks like a cartoon turtle. This might not have been your intention but you've hit on one of the more serious issues that Blops 2 league play had. In regards to quitting, there was a probation period you would get if you quit too often (although they never really made it clear how often was too often). There was also no distinction made between a disconnect and a quit so anyone who lost connectivity for any reason, including ip flooding, would be handed out a loss and a probation period. Their teammates would also be forced to play a man down and would be saddled with the same penalties if they left the game for that reason. There was a level of seriousness about it that it absolutely did not deserve. There were solo rankings that could be achieved by playing with a party of three people for some reason. There were solo players playing against full teams. There were an arbitrary amount of points added to your rank for a win and subtracted for a loss. These rewards and demerits were not adjusted if someone on your team quit and you won or lost 3v4. There was no join in progress system in case you lost a player, making the process of systematically booting your opponents offline all the more effective. To be honest, Ghosts' clan vs clan playlist was a better playlist to casually play competitively in. I understand that everyone loves their competitive rankings and that treyarch may feel forced to include a similar system in Blops3 simply due to the popularity of it, but a standard playlist with competitive rules that has no ranks, tracks no stats, and has join in progress enabled is a much better playlist overall. To conclude the reveal stream: Von has stated that "PlayStation is the new home of Call of Duty eSports." No surprise there. The eSports extension of the console war is now BLOPS 3 vs. Halo 5. We will see which side will pour more money into the tournaments. All in all, it is good news for players who want to go pro. I don't see it as that, and I'm not the only one. There's a large amateur community in the comp cod scene that is now forced to either switch consoles or switch games (because there is no competitive community on playstation). A console switch is likely to cost $650 minimum ($400 for a console, $140 for an aftermarket controller that is now a requirement to play competitively, $60 for a game, and $50 for a DLC pass because we're doing that now for some reason). That's a lot of money for someone who is unlikely to make that money back by playing the game. For pros it's probably fine, although they've had their complaints as well, but there are thousands more amateur players who now have to choose between spending an exorbitant amount of money to keep playing the game or switching to a different game.
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Post by kylet357 on Aug 9, 2015 19:48:07 GMT -5
Can you ban Specialists? I thought it was just weapons, perks, killstreaks, and abilities.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 9, 2015 22:30:05 GMT -5
Can you ban Specialists? I thought it was just weapons, perks, killstreaks, and abilities. You can ban specialist weapon or ability choices, e.g. Annihilator.
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Post by kylet357 on Aug 9, 2015 22:36:33 GMT -5
Can you ban Specialists? I thought it was just weapons, perks, killstreaks, and abilities. You can ban specialist weapon or ability choices, e.g. Annihilator. That's what I thought.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 10, 2015 14:01:57 GMT -5
I don't see it as that, and I'm not the only one. There's a large amateur community in the comp cod scene that is now forced to either switch consoles or switch games (because there is no competitive community on playstation). A console switch is likely to cost $650 minimum ($400 for a console, $140 for an aftermarket controller that is now a requirement to play competitively, $60 for a game, and $50 for a DLC pass because we're doing that now for some reason). That's a lot of money for someone who is unlikely to make that money back by playing the game. For pros it's probably fine, although they've had their complaints as well, but there are thousands more amateur players who now have to choose between spending an exorbitant amount of money to keep playing the game or switching to a different game. As somebody intrigued by the prospects of eSports, I am curious about how this "large amateur community in the comp cod" operate. If they are not playing for the tournament money (which is a rather small pie at this moment and probably only the top 8 teams in the world can barely make a living out of it), what are they playing for? Just the competitive experience? If yes, would the switch from XONE to PS4 as official platform really change much of that? Can't they still organize whatever tournaments they currently have on XONE? BTW, Halo 5 is a friendly enough game for skilled CoD players to pick up. Barriers to entry (in terms of enjoyment and habits) have been removed by adding sprint, ADS, and competent automatic weapons into the game. Get use to the idea of headshots and I am sure a skilled CoD players can be very good at Halo 5 as well.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 10, 2015 15:10:37 GMT -5
I see. The main concern here is the fracturing of the competitive CoD community, which used to mainly reside on the X360 side.
I guess that the severity of the fracture will largely depend on how many players of this community have already gotten an XONE. If not a lot, then most of them will just pick up PS4 instead, which is what Sony is betting on.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 10, 2015 15:41:38 GMT -5
I see. The main concern here is the fracturing of the competitive CoD community, which used to mainly reside on the X360 side. I guess that the severity of the fracture will largely depend on how many players of this community have already gotten an XONE. If not a lot, then most of them will just pick up PS4 instead, which is what Sony is betting on. Right. Sony and Microsoft don't care about the community. Only selling consoles. And to a large degree, Activision doesn't really give a rat's ass about the Esports scene either. Look at how much money they put into Esports? It's almost nothing. And to them, they'll fracture everything away, if a company pays enough money for exclusive rights. This is a hurdle Esports may never be able to get over. It's something that real, legitimate sport leagues have long ago managed to deal with. The conflicting nature of franchises, ownership, business ...all working as one, to sell a sporting entertainment product. The NFL, NBA, many real pro leagues have done it. Esports? It's still new. There's conflict. Right now, most of the parties involved are all simply reaching for whatever dollars they can find, like ghouls on flesh, to the detriment of an actual legitimate sport. CoD is the worst example of it. Esports will also be considered 'nerd/fake sport', as long as it never gets fixed.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Aug 10, 2015 16:21:24 GMT -5
I don't see it as that, and I'm not the only one. There's a large amateur community in the comp cod scene that is now forced to either switch consoles or switch games (because there is no competitive community on playstation). A console switch is likely to cost $650 minimum ($400 for a console, $140 for an aftermarket controller that is now a requirement to play competitively, $60 for a game, and $50 for a DLC pass because we're doing that now for some reason). That's a lot of money for someone who is unlikely to make that money back by playing the game. For pros it's probably fine, although they've had their complaints as well, but there are thousands more amateur players who now have to choose between spending an exorbitant amount of money to keep playing the game or switching to a different game. As somebody intrigued by the prospects of eSports, I am curious about how this "large amateur community in the comp cod" operate. If they are not playing for the tournament money (which is a rather small pie at this moment and probably only the top 8 teams in the world can barely make a living out of it), what are they playing for? Just the competitive experience? If yes, would the switch from XONE to PS4 as official platform really change much of that? Can't they still organize whatever tournaments they currently have on XONE? BTW, Halo 5 is a friendly enough game for skilled CoD players to pick up. Barriers to entry (in terms of enjoyment and habits) have been removed by adding sprint, ADS, and competent automatic weapons into the game. Get use to the idea of headshots and I am sure a skilled CoD players can be very good at Halo 5 as well. There are many people who go to LANs or who aspire to go to LANs who aren't good enough to go pro. There are also many people who play online tournaments or compete in GB ladders because they want to see how well they can do, or they want to play against good players so they can get better. There are many many people in the amateur community with varying levels of experience, motivation, and commitment. Some people won't be bothered by the switch to PS4. Many people will, and no matter how you spin it it's still a decision made by corporations, motivated by sales, that goes against the direction the community was going. Also, the suggestion that Halo 5 is similar enough to CoD to be an acceptable substitute for the average competitive CoD player shows a lack of understanding of how these games play. CoD for many years, with the exception of AW, has been a fairly slow-paced methodical game that favored map and spawn knowledge, situational awareness, and gun skill fairly equally. Halo is a very gun skill heavy game that has traditionally focused on teamwork, map and power weapon control, and winning gun fights. Halo 5 doesn't actually change this, in fact the only thing Halo 5 does (Halo 4 was guilty of this as well) is break the game's mechanics. Sprint never made sense for Halo from a map design and gameplay perspective. The increased mobility allows people to get to power positions faster and trivializes the penalty for dying. On top of that you now have players sprinting away from gunfights and into and out of cover. Positions that would once leave you hopelessly screwed now give you an out you wouldn't have had before. This lessens the penalty for making movement and map awareness mistakes. And now for Halo5 you now have the ability to jetpack dodge in any direction, which really just makes everything I mentioned even worse. It's also something the aim mechanics and weapon design were never meant to allow for. Instead of being about who misses the fewest shots it becomes about who moves around the most. Advanced Warfare suffers from this as well. Now do I think that people who play CoD competitively could play Halo competitively? Sure, why not. They've already devoted the time to get good at one game, it is entirely possible that they could do it again. But the switch would not be a substitute for CoD, it would be a replacement for it. The similar movement mechanics that have now been implemented for both games do little to bridge the gap between them. The competent ARs mean little when the TTK difference is still so large, and the map design is still very Halo despite these changes. I will reiterate that anyone playing CoD competitively is now forced to choose between two or three bad options. They can either spend the $650 on everything they’d need to play CoD competitively on PS4. They can stay on Xbox and not have a chance to go to LANs or play in any online tournaments or ladders that anyone takes seriously since the best players in the community have switched consoles. Or they can switch to a different game, which would most likely be Halo. But it wouldn't be actual Halo, it would be a weird broken Halo that doesn’t play like Halo is supposed to and is plagued by its own mechanics.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 10, 2015 16:30:12 GMT -5
As somebody intrigued by the prospects of eSports, I am curious about how this "large amateur community in the comp cod" operate. If they are not playing for the tournament money (which is a rather small pie at this moment and probably only the top 8 teams in the world can barely make a living out of it), what are they playing for? Just the competitive experience? If yes, would the switch from XONE to PS4 as official platform really change much of that? Can't they still organize whatever tournaments they currently have on XONE? BTW, Halo 5 is a friendly enough game for skilled CoD players to pick up. Barriers to entry (in terms of enjoyment and habits) have been removed by adding sprint, ADS, and competent automatic weapons into the game. Get use to the idea of headshots and I am sure a skilled CoD players can be very good at Halo 5 as well. There are many people who go to LANs or who aspire to go to LANs who aren't good enough to go pro. There are also many people who play online tournaments or compete in GB ladders because they want to see how well they can do, or they want to play against good players so they can get better. There are many many people in the amateur community with varying levels of experience, motivation, and commitment. Some people won't be bothered by the switch to PS4. Many people will, and no matter how you spin it it's still a decision made by corporations, motivated by sales, that goes against the direction the community was going. This part I understand. I was just wondering how much impact of the decision of switching the official platform at the pro level can have on this section of the community. Seemed to me that players on the XONE side can still do LAN / GB / etc not that different from before. I did see that the fracturing of the community can be a real issue, as mousey pointed out. How bad it can be is still up in the air. If there are enough players on both sides, it may not be that big of a deal.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 10, 2015 16:35:35 GMT -5
Regarding Halo 5 experience, unless you have played beta and decided that it is indeed broken, you may want to defer your evaluation until you have a chance to play the game. IMHO it maintains the core appeal of the original Halo but lowered the entry for CoD players.
If you have no interest in picking up Halo 5 and just want to see what it looks like, you can check out the links I posted above about Halo 5 invitation. Should be able to get a pretty good idea after just watching 1 game.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Aug 10, 2015 17:01:25 GMT -5
There are many people who go to LANs or who aspire to go to LANs who aren't good enough to go pro. There are also many people who play online tournaments or compete in GB ladders because they want to see how well they can do, or they want to play against good players so they can get better. There are many many people in the amateur community with varying levels of experience, motivation, and commitment. Some people won't be bothered by the switch to PS4. Many people will, and no matter how you spin it it's still a decision made by corporations, motivated by sales, that goes against the direction the community was going. This part I understand. I was just wondering how much impact of the decision of switching the official platform at the pro level can have on this section of the community. Seemed to me that players on the XONE side can still do LAN / GB / etc not that different from before. I did see that the fracturing of the community can be a real issue, as mousey pointed out. How bad it can be is still up in the air. If there are enough players on both sides, it may not be that big of a deal. No one is going to hold a LAN that doesn't abide by MLG rulesets and I highly doubt anyone will hold a LAN that isn't on the console all the big tournaments will be held on. Make no mistake, I am right about the options available to competitive players at this point. I was around when MLG switched to PS3 for blops after 3 years on xbox360, and I remember the community switching back to xbox when MLG didn't pick up MW3. I have been involved in the competitive community for quite a while. Regarding Halo 5 experience, unless you have played beta and decided that it is indeed broken, you may want to defer your evaluation until you have a chance to play the game. IMHO it maintains the core appeal of the original Halo but lowered the entry for CoD players. If you have no interest in picking up Halo 5 and just want to see what it looks like, you can check out the links I posted above about Halo 5 invitation. Should be able to get a pretty good idea after just watching 1 game. denkirson.proboards.com/post/200271/threadI've played enough Halo, and enough of the Halo 5 beta to be confident in my claims. It is also my opinion that 343's art direction is sh it.
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