I think the weapon mechanics and TTK's should be changed.

[pachiderm]

Sept 25, 2015 12:34:55 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

I wonder if they should make sniper rifles like BC2 bolt-action sniper, in that the cocking animation has to be completed before you scope back in.

They shouldn't

[kylet357]

I was speaking in the case that they had a faster ADS.

[banana]

asasa I don't think it's too fast. .4 is too slow to be competitive

[asasa]

Is it really though? They worked fine in CoD4/BO/BO2, no? If snipers suck now its because of the absurd movement system and shorter ADS is just a bandaid, kinda like giving the EPM3 no recoil when it needed more damage.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Sept 25, 2015 22:22:58 GMT -5 asasa said:

Is it really though? They worked fine in CoD4/BO/BO2, no?

No

[mrcongo93]

Sorry for my absence, though I'm glad this thread has stimulated some interesting conversation.

I think ADS time is most certainly one of the largest deciding factors in a gunfight. Usually whoever gets their gun up first has a massive advantage. That's one of the reasons I think SOH Pro, Quickdraw, QD Handle, etc. has always been a crutch ability, as people love anything that gives them a massive advantage in a gunfight. I think that itself needs a nerf to a 20% reduction in ADS speed.

Thinking then, it still gives a noticeable increase in ADS speed, but it doesn't allow weapons to outclass other, higher mobility weapons without it. So for example, the general ADS times were:

-.15 Seconds for Handguns
-.20 Seconds for SMGs and Shotguns (Shotguns sometimes .25 Seconds)
-.25 Seconds for Assault Rifles
-.35 Seconds for LMGs

With only a 20% reduction in ADS time, the weapons mobility will then become similar to the class above it, and be closer/at its level, instead of then outclassing it:

-.16 Seconds for SMGs and Shotguns
-.20 Seconds for Assault Rifles
-.28 Seconds for LMGs

With this, there's still a marked improvement over the base mobility, but the increase isn't so drastic that it warrants picking over almost all other attachments.

[kylet357]

I see no problem with a 25-33% ADS time reduction. 33% is what MW2 SoH Pro used.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

I don't see how quicker ADS was ever a crutch. Except for maybe BO1, there were always significantly better perks.

[wings]

Sept 27, 2015 10:07:40 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

I don't see how quicker ADS was ever a crutch.

I'm guessing the argument is on the basis that people will become too accustomed to having a an automatic gun that's basically a jack of all trades and there's basically zero thought made into map navigation as a result. I did see a few complaints on the Internetz when Ghosts came out because Quickdraw and Adjustable Stock cost 3 points each while others cost 2, so perhaps that's the group of players being discussed.

[pachiderm]

Sept 27, 2015 12:43:19 GMT -5 wings said:

Sept 27, 2015 10:07:40 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

I don't see how quicker ADS was ever a crutch.

I'm guessing the argument is on the basis that people will become too accustomed to having a an automatic gun that's basically a jack of all trades and there's basically zero thought made into map navigation as a result. I did see a few complaints on the Internetz when Ghosts came out because Quickdraw and Adjustable Stock cost 3 points each while others cost 2, so perhaps that's the group of players being discussed.

There is no class set up that allows people to move around a map with impunity. Anyone who doesn't put any thought into how they navigate the map and just rushes blindly is going to have a very poor game if their opposition has thumbs.

[kylet357]

Sept 27, 2015 15:16:57 GMT -5 pachiderm said:

Anyone who doesn't put any thought into how they navigate the map and just rushes blindly is going to have a very poor game if their opposition has thumbs.

Or uses the upper part of their brain.

[wings]

Sept 27, 2015 15:16:57 GMT -5 pachiderm said:

Sept 27, 2015 12:43:19 GMT -5 wings said:

I'm guessing the argument is on the basis that people will become too accustomed to having a an automatic gun that's basically a jack of all trades and there's basically zero thought made into map navigation as a result. I did see a few complaints on the Internetz when Ghosts came out because Quickdraw and Adjustable Stock cost 3 points each while others cost 2, so perhaps that's the group of players being discussed.

There is no class set up that allows people to move around a map with impunity. Anyone who doesn't put any thought into how they navigate the map and just rushes blindly is going to have a very poor game if their opposition has thumbs.

True but I guess it's much easier in the newer iterations of COD to run around the maps with SMGs and ARs and do better than the earlier ones. Mechanics like enforced movement, regardless of the weapon you're using, and the lack of audible enemy footsteps help SMGs and ARs much more. At least that was the impression I got when I played Black Ops 2 and compared it to Modern Warfare 3 even before SitRep Pro's strong buff.

[asasa]

Sept 26, 2015 12:53:45 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

Sept 25, 2015 22:22:58 GMT -5 asasa said:

Is it really though? They worked fine in CoD4/BO/BO2, no?

No

Am I the only one who thought sniper rifles worked best in BO1? with some changes they'd be fully competitive with other classes while having a large skill gap.

Namely: full initial sway brought back, upper arm 1.1 multi, 1.5 head neck and body.

Then a tiny 5-10% view kick increase for ARs/SMGs.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Sept 28, 2015 11:46:37 GMT -5 asasa said:

Sept 26, 2015 12:53:45 GMT -5 ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) said:

No

Am I the only one who thought sniper rifles worked best in BO1?

Yes.

[kylet357]

BO1 Snipers weren't actually that bad, if you had the right map. Array was probably the best sniping map in the game, especially if you had Ghost Pro (because being invisible in bushes while sniping people and they have no idea where you are is fun).

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

No, they were pretty bad. Literally the only thing better about BO1 snipers verse older games was the fact there was no stopping power, and the fact the L96 had upper arm multipliers.
Every game after BO1 had better snipers, except for AW, but that game sucks

[asasa]

I don't mean they were the best,I mean that they fit my ideal for how they should handle. I used l96 constantly and it was fun. A tad weak, but the maps supported sniping.

There's no denying it wasn't on par with the other guns. I had a k/d nearly 40% higher (from memory) with the m14 and such... But still did well with the l96.

And with all that time using it, it's far more fun and rewarding than any other cod. It's harder... Which is good. Sniping shouldn't be viable for new players.

[kylet357]

If I remember correctly, I actually had a higher K/D with the Dragunov than the L96. I'm not exactly sure, but I did have some preference to it. But yeah, post-BO1 sniper rifles were better. MW3, BO2, and Ghosts snipers were all pretty good tbh.

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Sept 28, 2015 17:23:34 GMT -5 asasa said:

Sniping shouldn't be viable for new players.

Why?

[Deleted]

Sept 28, 2015 23:30:03 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Because easy pick classes is literally a cardinal sin of videogame design.

Within the context of a game like CoD? Certainly. Otherwise it's been proven possible to have easy pick classes and still have a perfectly functioning game.

[kylet357]

Sept 28, 2015 23:30:03 GMT -5 Mousey said:

i loved the max run speed in mw2 as well.

110% with Lightweight, right?

Sept 28, 2015 23:30:03 GMT -5 Mousey said:

fast ads with worse ohk areas.

I'd like them to be the opposite of BC2 snipers. In BC2, they were a guaranteed one hit kill at close range but long range dropped to a headshot only kill. I'm not saying they should be always a one hit kill at long range, but to make it less damaging up close and more damaging at long range (with the faster ADS as well).

[asasa]

Sept 29, 2015 17:20:14 GMT -5 kylet357 said:

Sept 28, 2015 23:30:03 GMT -5 Mousey said:

i loved the max run speed in mw2 as well.

110% with Lightweight, right?

Sept 28, 2015 23:30:03 GMT -5 Mousey said:

fast ads with worse ohk areas.

I'd like them to be the opposite of BC2 snipers. In BC2, they were a guaranteed one hit kill at close range but long range dropped to a headshot only kill. I'm not saying they should be always a one hit kill at long range, but to make it less damaging up close and more damaging at long range (with the faster ADS as well).

Thats like the worst idea I could ever imagine being implemented. It's so ass backwards.

"Here, take this weapon that sucks at close range. Master it to the point where you have a chance. And now we're gonna make it so it's literally unusable no matter how good you are. LOL"

Should LMGs also do 10 damage up close and 40 far out? And SMGs do 50 damage up close and 10 far out?

[Megaqwerty]

Here’s what I do with snipers.

Design goals:
-Snipers should be useless in CQC
-Snipers should be unstoppable at range

Buffs:
-Increased sway for all other weapons. Snipers are generally the most accurate guns in real life, so LMGs should have more sway than snipers, ARs more than LMGs, and SMGs should sway so hard it causes nausea. Shotguns can have relatively low sway as their range is limited by other mechanics.

-Smoother hold breath mechanics. Breath capacity is shown as a gauge that appears when capacity is not full. Exhausting capacity does not result in exaggerated sway, but behaves identically to releasing breath prior to complete exhaustion. Capacity begins to regenerate immediately when no longer held, be it due to complete exhaustion or manually ceasing. Holding breath again can be done as soon as there is at least quarter capacity, not full like current.

Attachments/perks that affect sway also affect breath capacity. As capacity increases, regeneration rate also increases.

Snipers can always hold breath, regardless of optic. Similarly, no other class can hold breath, again, regardless of optic.

-Smoother ADS and animation thereof. Rather than the current behavior where the gun is brought up and there is abrupt shift from the normal view including the gun model to a separate view with a crosshair texture, aiming down sight zooms in the current view until the crosshairs appear when ADS In is complete. Graphically, this could be done by making the gun model semi or wholly transparent (only to the player, obviously) during the ADS In.

Why? This would allow a clear view on target during the entire ADS In time, whereas the current process blocks the view when the gun model disappears. Dual scope view can be present as well, preferably with no depth of field effect.

-Minimap visible while scoped.

-Large one hit kill zones, ex. 60 RPM should kill to everything except outermost limbs

-All other guns weaker at range. Generic ARs should not kill in less than five hits at range. At least not without very good reason.

-No flinch. None. Nada. Zip.

-No movement requirement for Ghost when rifle is out. Ghost itself should simply not have this requirement especially if UAVs are as easy to destroy as they were in the BO3 beta (i.e. easier than eating pizza).

-Standard 10 round magazines or larger (for weaker snipers). Most ARs can kill up to 10 players with perfect accuracy. Snipers (and shotguns) should be able to do the same.

-Low recoil. Recoil should not significantly disrupt the view on target.

-Free Overkill. There should not be secondaries. Secondaries have never been balanced versus primaries so just get rid of them. Give everyone two primaries for free.

-God gosh darn golly gee whiz maps that support sniping. This one is impossible. No one can do it. At least, not anymore.

Whew. But wait, there’s more! Nerfs!
-No hipfire. Snipers behave like launchers in that attempting to fire from the hip will scope in, fire a single shot, and then scope out. They do not behave like the Atlas 20 mm, which could be fired the instant the ADS bind was pressed, but before it fully accurized. This would actually quikscoping easier mechanically.

-600 ms ADS In. Oh, yeah. This is over double MW2 SoH (267 ms). Every other class can kill multiple times in this timeframe. Don’t quikscope. Hard scope. Use the weapon at range like God intended

Lower zoom sights should ADS quicker, with irons ADSing in 400 ms and ACOG at 500. However, these sights lack the flinch immunity, but still reduce it greatly (ex. 1/3 for irons, 1/6 for ACOG).

-LMG mobility. Did I mention that you shouldn’t be trying to quikscope? If you really want to shotgun, use a shotgun. I know they suck, but get over it.

-No prone. Foxtrot prone. We don’t need prone with arbitrary levels. Just add crouch high barriers and you’re done. Prone adds nothing to the game and further encourages clamping in a game where all the mechanics encourage clamping.

So, all done. Let’s look back at my design goals: unviable in CQC, unbeatable at range.

Due to long ADS and no hip fire, you cannot compete in CQC, period, as you will be cut down before it is permissible to fire the weapon. Additionally, the low mobility means that it’s a bad idea to run around with a sniper anyway. Free Overkill means you should switch to your sub when you gotta go fast.

If you do see someone at range, you can simply hit Shoot and hold breath and you’ll fire a complete accurate shot…in half a second. However, you have a clear view on target this whole time and can aim accordingly.

Even if the enemy begins to fire on you, you do not flinch and have zero reason to not make the shot on target unless you suck or you were otherwise too close to be using a sniper, in which case you suck and should have used your sub instead.

Here are some sample guns, listing the furthest one hit kill zone. One kill zone lost with suppressor:
60 RPM, 10 round mag, inner limbs
120 RPM, 12 rd, belly
240 RPM, 14 rd, chest

And two novelty guns:
60 RPM, 10 rd, chest, zero sway, zero recoil
60 RPM, 10 rd, head, SMG handling (ADS In, hip spread, mobility)

Lot of design choices and changes here. Please like, comment, and subscribe. The idea here is that encountering another player next to you with your sniper out means that you die. (You know. What happens if you meet another player at range and you have a shotgun.) But, if you have a clear view at range, nothing can defeat you except your own incompetence.

TL;DR: I’m go independent for this election because the Republican party has completely lost its shot.

[asasa]

Rock Paper Scissors does not make for an enjoyable FPS. Hell, it doesn't make anything fun. Guns need to have their advantages and disadvantages but when you make something 'unviable', you've gone too far.

There is absolutely zero reason to be nerfing any CQC aspects of snipers - period. They're shit. Do we see them getting used in MLG? Not the last time I checked. Is it because they're OP? No. Is it because they're hard to use? No. Is it because they aren't very good for 95% of engagements? Yes, why yes it is. If someone beats you with a sniper within a hundred feet, you fucked up. It happens. Dont blame the game.

This gun wouldnt work in CoD (hence you require overkill to be a normal ability..), so at this point its no longer CoD, it's a totally different game. Being able to have two primaries is a HUGE change.

I wouldnt mind seeing a gun like mousey proposed where it has excellent handling (or, at least FAST ADS) and lower damage (like chest and up 1HK), but I imagine in a game like CoD this is just going to be junked as it's too inconsistent.

[Megaqwerty]

Sept 29, 2015 21:04:57 GMT -5 asasa said:

but when you make something 'unviable', you've gone too far.

Something something shotguns.

Sept 29, 2015 21:04:57 GMT -5 asasa said:

They're shit. Do we see them getting used in MLG? Not the last time I checked.

Also something something shotguns.

[Pope Leo VII]

Were having the same argument in regards to the ineffectiveness of the CQ (Shotgun) and Long Range (Snipers) weapons.

There is no denying, that both of these weapons are meant to be kings whenever an engagement goes down in their domain.  A shotguns obliterates anything it touches while in spitting distance, whereas a sniper will mow you down before you even spot them. Playing to your guns strengths while using map control deserves to be rewarded. 

Unfortunately, both posses the power to 1HK and this is the problem... People bitch and moan because they were one shot.  Unless you vastly increase the rate of fire.... to the point they both become OP there is no way to contend with SMGS, and ARS.

A stone which often goes unturned is the rest of the guns kill so fast, more times then not this melting gives of the feeling of being 1HK.

Why even bother having these guns implemented if they are going to be useless.  Spend the time more wisely balancing the guns in which the vast majority wishes to use.

[banana]

Why do y'all want to get rid of quickscoping? QSing is cool

[asasa]

Sept 30, 2015 1:59:41 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

Sept 29, 2015 21:04:57 GMT -5 asasa said:

but when you make something 'unviable', you've gone too far.

Something something shotguns.

Sept 29, 2015 21:04:57 GMT -5 asasa said:

They're shit. Do we see them getting used in MLG? Not the last time I checked.

Also something something shotguns.

The difference is shotguns are so easy to use that the skill ceiling is basically the floor. If you take someone from mlg and pit them against an average player, and then say "snipers only" that average player will be annihilated. If you say "shotguns only" this gap will be far smaller.

Shotguns can't be fixed so long as fully automatic weapons are low recoil and low ttk. You can't just increase their skill ceiling so easily. Look at the KSG w/ slug. It was the epitome of a powerful, high reward shotgun... But it was hard to use.

Snipers have the opposite issue. They have a high skill ceiling while still having minimal reward for mastering them... Because somehow it's not fair.

[asasa]

No harm in seeing them try that but afaik tight spread is often a hindrance even for good players. The gun that comes to mind would be the 1887 in mw2. Use steady aim and it gets too hard. So you put an extra few milliseconds in to aiming and now you're dead.

Also DVK needs to be gone for this to work. It just ain't right when someone can knock your aim off with a slow firing weapon.

Am I wrong?

[ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42)]

Yeah, I don't see how tight spread is ever a hindrance, unless the gun is just that good to begin with. The reason using steady aim was a hindrance was because you gave up significantly better perks.