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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 11, 2016 23:01:13 GMT -5
But isn't that aim assist on the Drakon and P-06 much less "sticky" than normal aim assist (as in the amount it affects aiming speed is less than normal and/or the screen distance between your reticle and the the target in which the aim assist kicks in is less than normal)?
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Post by GodMars on Jan 11, 2016 23:21:45 GMT -5
Uh, the P-06 is quite excellent on consoles.
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 12, 2016 10:08:59 GMT -5
^^ Agreed. The P-06 aim assist is nasty. It's very unorthodox, but I hit some crazy unintentional drag scopes with it.
Getting closer to that dark matter. Finished the knife. Wasn't too bad actually. I enjoyed it. The inconsistent feeling range was slightly frustrating, but I got used to it.
I need to finish off the launchers, the L-Car (almost done with it), and then 2 LMGs. And then I'm done. Whew. It's going to be weird playing pubs and not "going for headshots or bloodthirsties".
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Post by lackingdamage on Jan 12, 2016 11:00:31 GMT -5
But isn't that aim assist on the Drakon and P-06 much less "sticky" than normal aim assist (as in the amount it affects aiming speed is less than normal and/or the screen distance between your reticle and the the target in which the aim assist kicks in is less than normal)? Pretty much but amount is tiny. Could not notice any on both of them most of the time. Idle sway pretty much voids any sort of aim assist. Uh, the P-06 is quite excellent on consoles. You must be playing a different game Not sure if XIM makes difference I doubt it given hard limits in place for aiming. Found it the P-06 to be rubbish borderline okay depending on who you faced. Given how playing 100% solo doing this very annoying team mates can let people past ^^ Agreed. The P-06 aim assist is nasty. It's very unorthodox, but I hit some crazy unintentional drag scopes with it. Getting closer to that dark matter. Finished the knife. Wasn't too bad actually. I enjoyed it. The inconsistent feeling range was slightly frustrating, but I got used to it. I need to finish off the launchers, the L-Car (almost done with it), and then 2 LMGs. And then I'm done. Whew. It's going to be weird playing pubs and not "going for headshots or bloodthirsties". During my time with P-06 been unable to hit any sort of drag scopes soooo My quest for dark matter ARs 6 out 7 only M8A7 left SMGs yet to bother get headshots most are at 40/50 LMGs yet to start Snipers 3 out 4 done doing the locus Launchers done Knife done Pistols 1 out 3 done LCAR/Burst one left Hated the knife and snipers so far Knife takes the cake even more so compared to the KRM
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Post by GodMars on Jan 12, 2016 11:33:42 GMT -5
^^ Agreed. The P-06 aim assist is nasty. It's very unorthodox, but I hit some crazy unintentional drag scopes with it. I went from unintentionally drag scoping with it to intentionally doing it. Worked brilliantly. I golded it with something like a 2.5 K/D, which is almost twice what I had with any other sniper. Really enjoyed using it. And, lackingdamage, I don't know, as I don't own a XIM.
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Post by lackingdamage on Jan 12, 2016 13:23:38 GMT -5
^^ Agreed. The P-06 aim assist is nasty. It's very unorthodox, but I hit some crazy unintentional drag scopes with it. I went from unintentionally drag scoping with it to intentionally doing it. Worked brilliantly. I golded it with something like a 2.5 K/D, which is almost twice what I had with any other sniper. Really enjoyed using it. And, lackingdamage, I don't know, as I don't own a XIM. Was never able to pull off drag scoping with P-06. Maybe it was due to constant stopping the idle sway. Have lowered the sensitivity found better success with snipers. Most of my deaths when using a sniper come down to flinch, idle sway, bad positioning, spawns, jumping and missing shots. Problem I have is idle sway plus aim factor in positioning means can't even get close to 2k.d with snipers most of the time just positive or heavy negative. At the same time I play 99.9% of the time solo So I don't know congrats I guess
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 12, 2016 14:07:21 GMT -5
I work on my sniping against bots. FFA on Nuketown. Every day. With no aim assist, your centering is the most important thing. Once I got the hang of the reticles, sway, and positioning, it was a breeze. Although I'll admit, while golding snipers, I spent many a game camped in a window with noobcharges and trip mines behind me. I'm not even ashamed. I'm so comfortable with the SVG now that I use my overkill class in GBs occasionally. I've hit some really nice pick snipes to start off rounds that I wouldn't have hit a month ago.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Jan 12, 2016 17:00:52 GMT -5
I think the sniper balance is pretty good on console. They're not really all that useful outside of headglitch superiority mode, which is fair enough IMO.
As for all things aim assist and XIM... I feel like the strength of the aim assist, plus the lack of meaningful body-part multipliers puts this game in a spot where aiming skill isn't that important beyond a basic level of competence, and screws up weapon balance, especially in SMGville. The levels aren't large or open enough for the new mobility to offset the level of aim assist. I'd really like to see some of the better controller players hop on the PC version and see how they do. I have a feeling they would do extremely well.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 12, 2016 18:47:18 GMT -5
How is sniper balance "pretty good on console" when the only sniper that's even useful for a decent number of players is the Drakon?
For the vast majority of console players, the Locus, P-06, SVG aren't even useful for long range and defense. Why use any of those three snipers when you'll have an easier time at long range and defense with any AR or LMG? I literally have not had a situation with a non-Drakon sniper where I wouldn't have done just as well or better with an AR or LMG.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Jan 12, 2016 19:29:17 GMT -5
Because they fill their logical role. The snipers are good for long range, there just isn't much in the way of long range in the game. They should be a high-skill niche weapon in a game like this. The fact that nobody is running around trying to railgun with these things automatically means they've handled it better than previous games.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 12, 2016 20:11:04 GMT -5
Because they fill their logical role. The snipers are good for long range, there just isn't much in the way of long range in the game. They should be a high-skill niche weapon in a game like this. The fact that nobody is running around trying to railgun with these things automatically means they've handled it better than previous games. Except they are supposed to be dominant at long range and good at mid range. Right now the ARs and LMGs are better at long range and defense and anything that isn't a shotgun is better at mid range. They are primary weapons, so they should be close to as useful as other primaries overall. This isn't the ballistic knife we are talking about. The issue isn't the lack of long range, because BO2 had the same size maps and although quickscoping was in BO2 , the snipers were also good at what they were supposed to be good at and were useful even if you weren't quickscoping. Quickscoping was also a lot less viable in Ghosts (dragscoping was still doable but dragscoping falls under normal sniper use) but normal sniping was good enough that the snipers were useful in that game, even on the DLC maps which had a lot less long range. Obviously snipers aren't meant to be useful on nuketown, exodus, evac, or combine, but redwood, havok, breach, fringe, hunted, infection, metro, and stronghold should all have a decent amount of use for snipers. But snipers are currently useless on all maps because they aren't good even at their intended roles.
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Post by illram on Jan 13, 2016 0:57:23 GMT -5
If you can aim, an SVG or a Locus or P-06 (I can't use that gun, but some people here can) is still better than an AR or any LMG at long range. I wouldn't call snipers useless, they just fill a small niche that most players don't want to bother with in a fast paced FPS.
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 13, 2016 10:07:16 GMT -5
If you can aim, an SVG or a Locus or P-06 (I can't use that gun, but some people here can) is still better than an AR or any LMG at long range. I wouldn't call snipers useless, they just fill a small niche that most players don't want to bother with in a fast paced FPS. Exactly. I run an overkill SVG w/ Thermal and Vesper class in SnD. It's laughable that people challenge me at range with their AR's. It's an easy kill for me. I've also worked on a few jump shots and wall run shots to get picks early on. That's a perfect role for a sniper. Get a quick pick on someone peeking or pushing, then switch to the SMG. And I've gotten good enough with the snipers now that I can challenge tough shots at mid range as well. The snipers are very solid when you get used to them.
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Post by Dumien on Jan 13, 2016 11:08:09 GMT -5
one of my best classes for SnD is the Gorgon w/ recon+quickdraw with an overkilled vesper + flak/fast hands/DS/Awareness. Lethal at all ranges and especially good at locking down a threaded LoS against multiple opponents.
As for the sniper discussion... You have to remember that this isn't normal CoD. This is Call of Destiny: Titan Warfare. Any time you introduce a vertical movement system slow RoF marksman guns become significantly worse.
I decided not to pursue dark matter because of time. I find myself playing BO3 solo significantly less due to the amount of amazing solo games right now.
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Post by Macht on Jan 13, 2016 13:21:49 GMT -5
one of my best classes for SnD is the Gorgon w/ recon+quickdraw with an overkilled vesper + flak/fast hands/DS/Awareness. Lethal at all ranges and especially good at locking down a threaded LoS against multiple opponents. I don't know how people use the Gorgon, that thing is cancer. It's my last gun before Dark Matter, I wish I'd left something fun for the last one.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jan 13, 2016 13:52:33 GMT -5
They made it more difficult with post-nerf-post-nerf-post-nerf gorgon, but I still like post-nerf-post-nerf-post-nerf gorgon for locking down hallways. It made it on to one of my tryhardiest classes even... It isn't very good for flying around. That is what the vesper is for. You want to crouch in place.
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 13, 2016 14:44:33 GMT -5
one of my best classes for SnD is the Gorgon w/ recon+quickdraw with an overkilled vesper + flak/fast hands/DS/Awareness. Lethal at all ranges and especially good at locking down a threaded LoS against multiple opponents. I don't know how people use the Gorgon, that thing is cancer. It's my last gun before Dark Matter, I wish I'd left something fun for the last one. Ugh, I know. I saved LMGs for last. Almost done with headshots on the Gorgon and even that has been a pain. The BRM was 100x better. I'm looking forward to the 48 Dredge though.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 13, 2016 16:25:15 GMT -5
If you can aim, an SVG or a Locus or P-06 (I can't use that gun, but some people here can) is still better than an AR or any LMG at long range. I wouldn't call snipers useless, they just fill a small niche that most players don't want to bother with in a fast paced FPS. Define "if you can aim", because what I and the vast majority of console players are finding is that at long range you can either use a sniper and spend half a minute trying to line up the shot, or you can spend a fraction of a second lining up your shot with an AR or LMG and then spend a very short amount of time hitting the necessary shots. It's not like in Ghosts where you could easily line up the shot with a sniper.
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Post by illram on Jan 13, 2016 21:22:41 GMT -5
If you can aim, an SVG or a Locus or P-06 (I can't use that gun, but some people here can) is still better than an AR or any LMG at long range. I wouldn't call snipers useless, they just fill a small niche that most players don't want to bother with in a fast paced FPS. Define "if you can aim", because what I and the vast majority of console players are finding is that at long range you can either use a sniper and spend half a minute trying to line up the shot, or you can spend a fraction of a second lining up your shot with an AR or LMG and then spend a very short amount of time hitting the necessary shots. It's not like in Ghosts where you could easily line up the shot with a sniper. Well a half minute to line up your shot would be bad aiming ability. I assume you're exaggerating though. Good enough aim to snipe effectively would be, to me, someone who can kill a target quicker by aiming and firing one shot with a sniper scope, as opposed to with an AR. Your TTK is basically however long it takes you to aim and fire. Your skill level dictates how close you can play with it, or whether you have to camp a lot and stick solely to very long engagements where the advantage is much more pronounced. For example, where you can miss and the target is too far away to effectively kill you before you get off a second shot.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 13, 2016 22:00:09 GMT -5
Define "if you can aim", because what I and the vast majority of console players are finding is that at long range you can either use a sniper and spend half a minute trying to line up the shot, or you can spend a fraction of a second lining up your shot with an AR or LMG and then spend a very short amount of time hitting the necessary shots. It's not like in Ghosts where you could easily line up the shot with a sniper. Well a half minute to line up your shot would be bad aiming ability. I assume you're exaggerating though. Good enough aim to snipe effectively would be, to me, someone who can kill a target quicker by aiming and firing one shot with a sniper scope, as opposed to with an AR. Your TTK is basically however long it takes you to aim and fire. Your skill level dictates how close you can play with it, or whether you have to camp a lot and stick solely to very long engagements where the advantage is much more pronounced. For example, where you can miss and the target is too far away to effectively kill you before you get off a second shot. It's an exaggeration, but my point is that the way snipers are supposed to be, you are supposed to easily be able to pick off long range targets with a sniper, and mid range be worse than ARs and LMGs but overall equal to SMGs, and a defensive sniper is supposed to great at midrange and even doable for short range (but not close range). The problem is that no aim assist (or the nearly no aim assist for the P-06 and Drakon) means that the snipers perform this way: - Drakon: Has so much ammo and such low recoil and sway that it's OP on PC as hell, but is alright on console. - Locus: A little too accurate on PC, but on console good luck getting a kill in 1 shot while not wasting too much time making sure you get lined up. On console the LMGs and the more accurate ARs will easily outgun you at long range and at mid range everything that isn't a shotgun will easily outgun you. - P-06: Ridiculously good on PC, but on console you will often miss your first 2 bursts. If you hit them it's almost always a kill, but it takes so long to actually hit them that you will get outgunned by LMGs and ARs at long range. - SVG: Great on PC, but on console it performs like the P-06 with more sway but no delay before your first shot. Like the P-06 you will kill them if you hit them, but it takes so damn long to actually hit them that you will often be outgunned by ARs and LMGs at long range.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 14, 2016 13:20:04 GMT -5
Moral of the story: aimbots > skill I think we established years ago that snipers are woefully underpowered and stuck that way because of the negative sentiment towards one hit kills The ultimate problem for mankind is designing a sniper that is balanced without being really strong when someone plays as gay as possible Make the snipers on console have normal levels of aim assist that either functions like in Ghosts or only kicks in when the player has been fully ADS'd for more than 250ms and the problem would mostly be solved. Most of BO2's quickscoping came from players guiding their snipers with hipfire aim assist as they were transitioning to ADS. That's why Ghosts had great snipers without having even close to as much quickscoping as BO2.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jan 14, 2016 13:48:24 GMT -5
I feel like this has been discussed to death before. Snipers being good depends on map size/layout and player movement speed. The bigger and slower... the better snipers are. Aim assist matters when you are trying to compete with SMGs and ARs on their turf. In BO3 that turf just so happens to encompass 98% of playable area.
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Slick
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Post by Slick on Jan 14, 2016 17:33:43 GMT -5
The game mode will also effect the value of "slower weapons". Slow firing, but high damage weapons and snipers rise in value in game modes that are slower paced and/or have a respawn timer. Snipers have always been at their highest value in Search & Destroy because life is most valuable there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2016 17:56:02 GMT -5
The most annoying thing about multiplayer games like Call of Duty is that you have freedom of choice, and every choice is awful. You can either choose awfully balanced but fun weapons that are too niche and don't do well against higher-skilled players, OR you can tryhard and play with the more boring weapons because winning is fun.
Then that leaks into the community. Now you have all of these Johnnies roaming on the CoD forums suggesting ways to buff the sniper rifles, the LMGs, shotguns, and even pistols despite nobody that matters in the gaming community ever using these weapons.
I'd come up with a counter-example, but I don't think there is one. This is literally every multiplayer game in a nutshell. People hate the current meta (eventually), and want to change it to make it interesting, whereas everyone else is fine and plays the game as is.
There's your future of eSports and gaming in general. A game where the meta automatically evolves, but isn't rock-paper-scissors.
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 19, 2016 14:03:30 GMT -5
Define "if you can aim", because what I and the vast majority of console players are finding is that at long range you can either use a sniper and spend half a minute trying to line up the shot, or you can spend a fraction of a second lining up your shot with an AR or LMG and then spend a very short amount of time hitting the necessary shots. It's not like in Ghosts where you could easily line up the shot with a sniper. Well a half minute to line up your shot would be bad aiming ability. I assume you're exaggerating though. Good enough aim to snipe effectively would be, to me, someone who can kill a target quicker by aiming and firing one shot with a sniper scope, as opposed to with an AR. Your TTK is basically however long it takes you to aim and fire. Your skill level dictates how close you can play with it, or whether you have to camp a lot and stick solely to very long engagements where the advantage is much more pronounced. For example, where you can miss and the target is too far away to effectively kill you before you get off a second shot. Exactly. Without aim assist, the ability to quickly acquire a target comes down to two things; hand eye coordination, and centering. People really underestimate the importance of centering in FPS, but its never been more important that in sniping w/o aim assist. The range becomes irrelevant, for the most part as your reticle will always be on, or super close, to your target as you scope in. Master centering, master sniping in BO3.
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Post by dunsparceflinch on Jan 19, 2016 15:42:06 GMT -5
The game mode will also effect the value of "slower weapons". Slow firing, but high damage weapons and snipers rise in value in game modes that are slower paced and/or have a respawn timer. Snipers have always been at their highest value in Search & Destroy because life is most valuable there. And how often are people on console using snipers in S&D in this game? Snipers would have been fine in BO3 if they were actually superior in defense and long range compared to ARs. They aren't though, they are just "ok" at defense and long range on console (excluding the Drakon). And again, the biggest problem with the complete removal of aim assist on snipers is that it makes it impossible to balance snipers for both console and PC without doing weird platform specific balancing, which I'm fairly certain Treyarch has never done and likely never will.
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Post by Dumien on Jan 19, 2016 16:33:40 GMT -5
And how often are people on console using snipers in S&D in this game? Snipers would have been fine in BO3 if they were actually superior in defense and long range compared to ARs. They aren't though, they are just "ok" at defense and long range on console (excluding the Drakon). Often enough that I agree with Gamble. Sniper are head glitch punishers. Argyle has been keep up non-stop high quality sniper gameplay over the past week without a mouse. The no aim assist thing has scared quite a few people off of using the Locus and SVG, but in the proper hands they outclass AR and LMG users (for everything else there is the VESPER). I feel the same way about Argus vs Brecci.
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Post by flatulentmonkeys on Jan 21, 2016 14:37:55 GMT -5
And how often are people on console using snipers in S&D in this game? Snipers would have been fine in BO3 if they were actually superior in defense and long range compared to ARs. They aren't though, they are just "ok" at defense and long range on console (excluding the Drakon). Often enough that I agree with Gamble. Sniper are head glitch punishers. Argyle has been keep up non-stop high quality sniper gameplay over the past week without a mouse. The no aim assist thing has scared quite a few people off of using the Locus and SVG, but in the proper hands they outclass AR and LMG users (for everything else there is the VESPER). I feel the same way about Argus vs Brecci. Exactly. The 13 year olds aren't running around with them in every game mode; which is perfectly fine for me. But the true snipers adapted rather quickly. Guys like Faze Rain, Optic Pamaj, Faze Spratt, and even the competitive SnD players are all having great results using the snipers.
Check out Rain/Pamaj/Spratt's youtubes and watch some gameplay. They're just as good on BO3 as they were on BO2, IMO.
And on the competitive SnD side, most everyone has an overkill class with a thermal SVG and Vesper. I don't think I've played a gamebattles match yet where someone on the other team wasn't sniping.
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Post by banana on Jan 21, 2016 19:36:52 GMT -5
Which is silly and lazy, really. By removing aim assist on console theyre clearly recognizing its impact on balance. I guess they may have to account for people using controllers on pc (idk if that enables aim assist) but even so the current system sux. it does enable aim assist. It's stronger than the console version too
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Post by Marvel4 on Jan 21, 2016 21:40:15 GMT -5
It's stronger than the console version too Bullshit.
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