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Post by bmac39 on Feb 2, 2016 0:31:00 GMT -5
Ghosts SVU with Silencer and Thermal <33333333
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Post by roadwarrior on Feb 2, 2016 13:02:57 GMT -5
Semi autos that shoot slowly make them incredibly weak in my opinion, especially in hard core. But the Shieva s a different animal than the MK14 capable of 1-2 hit kills in core is quite powerful. But for me 500 RPM or more would make it much more useable. 300 RPM is way slower than my trigger pulls per minute.
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Post by tacticalpower88 on Feb 2, 2016 14:41:05 GMT -5
U guys are completely disregarding the in-practice aspect of the sheiva. Its pretty much the only gun in the game that u can reliably aim at a pixel and quickly 1, 2 drop it without dealing with the wobble and/or burst delay of the other ARs. It also is the only non-sniper that gets a functional long range headshot bonus without high cal. In a cover filled game like bo3, these features probably make the sheiva have the lowest overall in-practice ttk in the game for players with good accuracy/trigger finger timing.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 2, 2016 21:18:57 GMT -5
U guys are completely disregarding the in-practice aspect of the sheiva. Its pretty much the only gun in the game that u can reliably aim at a pixel and quickly 1, 2 drop it without dealing with the wobble and/or burst delay of the other ARs. It also is the only non-sniper that gets a functional long range headshot bonus without high cal. In a cover filled game like bo3, these features probably make the sheiva have the highest overall in-practice ttk in the game. Well then make two semi autos. This one is a retarded hybrid that tries to balance high damage with no recoil. Mock up: G3 3-4hk No recoil 40rnd mag Smg hipfire Headshots: 2-2hk M14: 2-3hk Very high, predictable recoil 20rnd mag Ar hipfire Headshots: 2-2hk Both 600rpm cap. Great. We now have two fun, unique, balanceable mockups. |
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Feb 2, 2016 22:13:52 GMT -5
You dream too hard, asasa.
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banana
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Post by banana on Feb 3, 2016 10:09:12 GMT -5
U guys are completely disregarding the in-practice aspect of the sheiva. Its pretty much the only gun in the game that u can reliably aim at a pixel and quickly 1, 2 drop it without dealing with the wobble and/or burst delay of the other ARs. It also is the only non-sniper that gets a functional long range headshot bonus without high cal. In a cover filled game like bo3, these features probably make the sheiva have the highest overall in-practice ttk in the game.Not when the gun is a semi auto which have huge penalties for misses. You meant to say lowest btw  |
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Post by broth3r on Feb 3, 2016 11:09:16 GMT -5
I'm fine with the Shieva how it is, to be honest.
The very low RoF is indeed a hindrance, but in my hands at least, it's a far more reliable 2 hit kill than any other semi-auto AR in previous games. In a game where TTKs have been slashed across the board, it just feels... right. I see it as a completely different beast, hard to even compare with semis of old.
A high cap BO1 FAL-like weapon would be fun to play with, though. If only because I want that sound back.
PS: On the "skill cap" - everytime I see that term being mentioned, it's always in such a one-dimensional way. Say, the old myth that shotguns take no skill, because they (supposedly) require little aim - nevermind the movement and tactical acumen required to use them. To claim a higher fire cap would increase the skill cap is much the same thing - boiling down everything to, as a mate of mine said of his CoD4 USP, "modded fingers". Yes, the ability to fire a semi-auto rifle rapidly without losing accuracy is an import skill for their use - but one shouldn't desire buffs that play solely into that strength. It's part of a larger equation.
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PSIII
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Post by PSIII on Feb 4, 2016 1:08:20 GMT -5
At range, it's not the worst thing ever. Up close and even at mid range, it's at a huge disadvantage in this game, especially in the case of multiple enemies. 300 would be like the bare minimum of what it should be.
There's nothing wrong with 600 rpm semis. They're still semi's after all.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Feb 4, 2016 9:24:51 GMT -5
The Sheiva is pretty deadly in the competitive scene (enough so where it's commonly banned) but that is a different format. In more chaotic gametypes with 12 players on a small map, it definitely shouldn't be your first choice. But on longer maps like Redwood, Fringe and Evac, I believe it's easily a top choice.
Its the same kind of deal with the Vesper. All the "good" players are begging for a nerf but enough the population is terrible with the gun that the Devs refuse to make changes. But in the right hands, its easily the best weapon in the game. The Sheiva is the same way but to a lesser extent. To probably the majority of the playerbase, it's a below average to average weapon. But in the right hands on the right map, its the long range counterpart to the Vesper. The only difference is that the Devs recognize this enough to not give the Sheiva any unnecessary buffs, whereas I'm of the opinion the Vesper really could use a nerf of some kind.
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banana
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Post by banana on Feb 4, 2016 16:26:46 GMT -5
The Sheiva is pretty deadly in the competitive scene (enough so where it's commonly banned) |
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 4, 2016 16:27:41 GMT -5
I'm fine with the Shieva how it is, to be honest. The very low RoF is indeed a hindrance, but in my hands at least, it's a far more reliable 2 hit kill than any other semi-auto AR in previous games. In a game where TTKs have been slashed across the board, it just feels... right. I see it as a completely different beast, hard to even compare with semis of old. A high cap BO1 FAL-like weapon would be fun to play with, though. If only because I want that sound back. PS: On the "skill cap" - everytime I see that term being mentioned, it's always in such a one-dimensional way. Say, the old myth that shotguns take no skill, because they (supposedly) require little aim - nevermind the movement and tactical acumen required to use them. To claim a higher fire cap would increase the skill cap is much the same thing - boiling down everything to, as a mate of mine said of his CoD4 USP, "modded fingers". Yes, the ability to fire a semi-auto rifle rapidly without losing accuracy is an import skill for their use - but one shouldn't desire buffs that play solely into that strength. It's part of a larger equation. Well the biggest part of this gun having a low skill cap is lack of recoil. And you can't give it recoil because it already sucks, and it would be floaty because the low cap. So it's just a dumb weapon. By raising the fire rate you can give it lots of recoil. As for shotguns, they do have the lowest skill cap. You can't really argue against that. It's a gun that no matter your abilities will never kill people outside of a certain range. Tactical movement is iffy at best in this game, although it does exist in no respawn modes. (Technically spawn trapping is a skill but I don't think it's respectable, much like throwing grenades at the start of a match) |
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Post by Lexapro on Feb 4, 2016 19:32:55 GMT -5
That's just them not knowing the best guns again I don't think that's ever really been an issue. When was the last time the competitive scene didn't know what the best guns were? BO1: FAMAS/AK74U MW3: ACR/MP7/PP90M1 BO2: M8A1/MSMC/Skorpion Ghosts: R5/MTAR-X/Vector AW: BAL-27/ASM-1 The problem with the competitive scene has always been the lack of weapon variety because of how imbalanced weapons always were. There has almost always been 1 or 2 guns in each class that were clearly better than their peers. This year, I think the guns are much better balanced but there's still top picks. The Vesper is the best weapon in the game and will commonly get banned. The Sheiva gets banned a lot as well, but is more often situation. The meta is currently M8A7/VMP with the occasional XR-2/Man-O-War/Kuda/Pharo thrown in when they get banned. If either Vesper/Sheiva does NOT get banned, you can sure that teams will use those weapons. Now sometimes the pros will use ATTACHMENTS that don't make sense (long barrel on Kuda, for example), but I think they can generally feel what guns work and what guns don't. |
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Post by banana on Feb 5, 2016 9:55:11 GMT -5
AW
IMR (was banned in gentleman's agreements) > HBR > BAL
HBR has faster ttk, less recoil when both have grip, more flinch
BAL has a 3hk at 5m (will rarely happen except for maybe hardpoint but ASM1 is better for that), 3hk after a stun, and better irons
Which one should the best players in the world be using?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 5, 2016 12:12:41 GMT -5
If they're banning things that don't make sense, I'd guess it's a consistency thing. The Sheiva is probably one of the least consistent weapons in CoD when you factor in player accuracy, even though it's still crap.
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Post by Lexapro on Feb 5, 2016 14:43:21 GMT -5
Gentlemen's agreements were its own problem. In BOIII, they've gentlemen'd out parts of the game like UAV, Sentry Gun, Trip Mine, Awareness, Tracker, Sixth Sense etc. I think those are fine as they do slow the game down and reduce the skill gap.
The gentlemen's bans in AW were ridiculous though. IMR/Ameli/Overkill were banned because the pros didn't want to adapt at all. It was not fun to watch and a large portion of the community complained. However, the HBR was never banned and many players tried it in competitive. They were getting consistently outgunned by the BAL and ASM-1. Clayster/Crimsix said on stream once the reasoning was that with the HBR, you could beat a BAL at long range but you had no chance against an ASM-1 up close, whereas you could challenge with a BAL.
Consider how fast paced AW was with everyone constantly boosting around and you'll understand why a weapon that was strongest at medium and long range didn't suit the meta. How a weapon designed to hold down lanes was weak in a game where lanes didn't matter.
Finally, even if we're theorycrafting based on numbers, you should know that TTK is a terrible way to measure a weapon's effectiveness. And having a free attachment slot to not require a reflex sight is a big advantage in AW when optics didn't have their own dedicated slot.
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Post by banana on Feb 5, 2016 17:39:54 GMT -5
Gentlemen's agreements were its own problem. In BOIII, they've gentlemen'd out parts of the game like UAV, Sentry Gun, Trip Mine, Awareness, Tracker, Sixth Sense etc. I think those are fine as they do slow the game down and reduce the skill gap. The gentlemen's bans in AW were ridiculous though. IMR/Ameli/Overkill were banned because the pros didn't want to adapt at all. It was not fun to watch and a large portion of the community complained. However, the HBR was never banned and many players tried it in competitive. They were getting consistently outgunned by the BAL and ASM-1. Clayster/Crimsix said on stream once the reasoning was that with the HBR, you could beat a BAL at long range but you had no chance against an ASM-1 up close, whereas you could challenge with a BAL. Consider how fast paced AW was with everyone constantly boosting around and you'll understand why a weapon that was strongest at medium and long range didn't suit the meta. How a weapon designed to hold down lanes was weak in a game where lanes didn't matter. Finally, even if we're theorycrafting based on numbers, you should know that TTK is a terrible way to measure a weapon's effectiveness. And having a free attachment slot to not require a reflex sight is a big advantage in AW when optics didn't have their own dedicated slot. 1. agree some gentleman's agreements are dumb 2. the bal only has a better chance within 5m. Outside of 5m the bal has a lower chance than the HBR. 5m is small af 3. TTK is a very important statistic. The ICR would be beast af if it wasn't. Most of the best guns in any cod also had the fastest ttk. 4. I'll give you the optics one but the pros should be able to use the irons if a casual player like me can use them with little problem. I'd rather take the HBR's pros over its cons vs the BAl. I also forgot to mention that I'm not even factoring the HBR's second shot which is at 900 rpm iirc. (mostly for lurkers because I'm pretty sure you knew) |
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Post by freshmuffins on Feb 5, 2016 22:13:24 GMT -5
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Post by TheHawkNY on Feb 6, 2016 14:29:55 GMT -5
The competitive scene has very little to do with normal play, because there are only three viable weapon choices - low recoil AR, low recoil SMG, and bullet hose SMG. It eleminates a lot of the other factors and attributes that make other weapons viable in normal play.
Also, if we're talking about weapon balance across the franchise, BO3 doesn't hold a candle to Ghosts, where I've heard legitimate arguments as to why each AR and LMG is best, and each SMG has a niche.
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Post by youngstuna on Feb 6, 2016 16:13:50 GMT -5
I think BO2 was the most balanced. I could use a wide variety of weapons in that game and have good success.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Feb 6, 2016 16:45:33 GMT -5
I think BO2 was the most balanced. I could use a wide variety of weapons in that game and have good success. You and I have different recollections. I seem to remember the FAL and AN-94 being far and away the best AR's, the PDW being completely OP for the first 6 months, LMGs being way too powerful, and shotguns being completely underpowered (with almost everyone using a shotgun choosing the R870). Not to mention, C4 was so powerful many people had more kills with C4 than any weapon. |
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Post by youngstuna on Feb 6, 2016 16:53:10 GMT -5
I think BO2 was the most balanced. I could use a wide variety of weapons in that game and have good success. You and I have different recollections. I seem to remember the FAL and AN-94 being far and away the best AR's, the PDW being completely OP for the first 6 months, LMGs being way too powerful, and shotguns being completely underpowered (with almost everyone using a shotgun choosing the R870). Not to mention, C4 was so powerful many people had more kills with C4 than any weapon. When they nerfed the FAL, it wasn't that great anymore. The SCAR-H was tremendous, the M8A1 was a very powerful weapon. The Type-25 fired fast and was accurate, the MTAR was a jack of all trades type, even the SWAT was a very viable weapon. On the SMG side, the MSMC and Scorpion always competed very well with the PDW. The MP7 and Vector were solid weapons as well but the Chicom could have been better. The LMGs were well balanced and destructive. You could make a case for either one in certain situations. The shotguns were good too. You could have success with virtually any primary from my experience. |
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Post by bmac39 on Feb 7, 2016 0:08:03 GMT -5
I had almost twice as many kills with C4 than with any other gun, and i had diamond SMG's, AR's, and shotguns in BO2.
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Post by tacticalpower88 on Feb 14, 2016 5:51:25 GMT -5
U guys are completely disregarding the in-practice aspect of the sheiva. Its pretty much the only gun in the game that u can reliably aim at a pixel and quickly 1, 2 drop it without dealing with the wobble and/or burst delay of the other ARs. It also is the only non-sniper that gets a functional long range headshot bonus without high cal. In a cover filled game like bo3, these features probably make the sheiva have the highest overall in-practice ttk in the game.Not when the gun is a semi auto which have huge penalties for misses. You meant to say lowest btw Edited post to properly express my point. I always get higher/lower ttk mixed up for some reason lol |
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