hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Apr 2, 2017 11:46:26 GMT -5
As tempting as it sounds, most likely not for me. Destiny has to be treated Like a second job for 1-2 months, and I simply don't have the time. Eh, that's really not the case anymore. The game is much more generous when it comes to drops and light level increases than it ever was while you were still playing. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean much for Destiny 2, but I really can't see them going back to the Y1 Destiny grind without a ton of backlash.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Apr 2, 2017 13:06:41 GMT -5
I hope it's grindy as fuck. I need the action, man.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Apr 3, 2017 0:18:58 GMT -5
Now that it's finally on PC I think I'll give it a go.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 3, 2017 8:13:19 GMT -5
I still don't know anything about the actual game. There is a game behind all the pretty commercials right? Are there new features? Do we know anything except that there will be all new loot? I guess that's probably enough for most Destiny players.
Personally it'll take something special for me to come back. I didn't realize when I bought the game that it was going to have effectively manditory DLC with a premium pricetag attached to it just to continue to play. I likely would have kept playing Destiny for another year had Taken King not priced me out. But I don't play games with subscriptions and that's kinda what Destiny is.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 3, 2017 8:22:40 GMT -5
Now that it's finally on PC I think I'll give it a go. Hmm... Destiny does have good coop and Caitlin and I are always needing new coop games... but I doubt she would consider playing Destiny even though it does have pretty solid FPS fundamentals... (Well I'm assuming the sequel will have as well.) I'm pretty sure Caitlin hates Destiny, though. IF she wanted to play it with me then getting it on PC could be a thing... maybe. If it's anything like the first game, though, then the DLC will be manditory to really continue playing with anybody so that'll mean buying whatever version comes with the season pass if you want to play for an entire year and if you're gonna play for less than a year unless you're gonna play like 20+ hours a week I wouldn't bother with Destiny. Well... It'll probably be less grindy than the year one. I hear it's gotten less grindy so maybe. Still, though... I don't see it as the kind of game you play for just a month or three. Of course the season pass will only buy you one year. They'll have another major DLC for the second year and it will cost $40 or more. ;3
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wittyscorpion
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Destiny 2
Apr 3, 2017 9:58:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wittyscorpion on Apr 3, 2017 9:58:04 GMT -5
As tempting as it sounds, most likely not for me. Destiny has to be treated Like a second job for 1-2 months, and I simply don't have the time. Eh, that's really not the case anymore. The game is much more generous when it comes to drops and light level increases than it ever was while you were still playing. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean much for Destiny 2, but I really can't see them going back to the Y1 Destiny grind without a ton of backlash. To me, the main attraction of Destiny is raid with friends. The problem is if I don't invest a lot of time as soon as it comes out, I will be out of sync with my friends. Still recommend bros who have the time to get it, the raid experience with friends is great and unique. Most of my memorable gaming experience came from that.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 3, 2017 14:47:56 GMT -5
Raids are great, but it would be nice if you didn't have to make soooooooooo... many things align perfectly in order to do them. As is, it's a barrier that will keep most players from ever experiencing them.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 3, 2017 15:55:41 GMT -5
Raids are great, but it would be nice if you didn't have to make soooooooooo... many things align perfectly in order to do them. As is, it's a barrier that will keep most players from ever experiencing them. I'm not sure exactly what you mean, can you elaborate?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 3, 2017 18:00:51 GMT -5
Raids just require a lot of things go all line up just right to even start off with a chance of doing one. Aside from getting to the appropriate level and unlocking the ability to do them you'll also need the right mix of gear that will actually be useful and a group of friends who also meet all those requirements, and then you need all those things that you listed to all go right as well. Basically if you don't have a pretty big crew to roll with your only hope is the LFG sites.
Most players never get to try the raids. I probably never would have if not for you and Marko.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Apr 3, 2017 18:12:30 GMT -5
Do what I do; show up.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Apr 4, 2017 0:57:41 GMT -5
No jumping puzzles please.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 4, 2017 4:04:38 GMT -5
No jumping puzzles please. But how would you separate the men from the boys without them?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 4, 2017 9:00:51 GMT -5
I just envisioned a world where jumping puzzles were the new skillometer. Gone were traditional FPS games and in their place pros would compete against each other in First Person Jumping Puzzle games all around the world and trash talk each other's jumping skill. Montage videos were full of 360 no look jumps and backwards speedruns...
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 5, 2017 14:53:12 GMT -5
Raids just require a lot of things go all line up just right to even start off with a chance of doing one. Aside from getting to the appropriate level and unlocking the ability to do them you'll also need the right mix of gear that will actually be useful and a group of friends who also meet all those requirements, and then you need all those things that you listed to all go right as well. Basically if you don't have a pretty big crew to roll with your only hope is the LFG sites. Most players never get to try the raids. I probably never would have if not for you and Marko. But that's the thing - the existence of the raids encourages you to make friends to play with, which in turn makes the game much more fun, and from a design perspective increases retention. The level requirements are not that high. I don't think that there are many people with the appropriate skill level at the game to do a successful raid who achieve that skill level before hitting the level needed to do the raid. It's not like VoG anymore where the struggle to level was crazy. The last new raid I actually went into overleveled. I don't know how they could make it much easier for people to get into a raid without also ruining them. There isn't any other PvE activity in the game that's challenging. A raid is literally the only PvE activity I can load with the potential to fail to complete it. And the guys that I play with, really only play to do raids and Trials, because everything else seems pointless to them. How would you design things so that raids are challenging to a group of competent players that communicate with each other, while also making it accessible to randomly paired unwashed masses?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 6, 2017 13:11:25 GMT -5
Mainly the game needs more social tools. Yeah it's nice that other sites have stepped up and provided a lot of that, but that just shows that there is a need not being filled by the game it-self. Most players will never even know those sites and tools exist unless they are built into the game. I keep coming back to my days playing Everquest. There were a lot of tools built right into the game that helped immensely with setting up groups, and the amount of organization needed for a lot of that content was far more advanced than anything Destiny throws at you.
Mainly it's just that the social aspects of Destiny are sort of tacked on. The game is built around an extremely casual social experience, but the onus of actually making friends to play with is pretty squarely on the player. The game doesn't really make it easier to communicate with anybody, it just randomly throws some players together here and there and hopes they make friends. That's fine for some and others like me will meet a few people by other means online and that helps some too. But for a lot of players it's simply not going to do anything for them.
I'm not saying it's some great evil sin, but it would be nice if the game could encourage more players to actually participate in Raids. I remember the % of players that had completed a raid was always very low before. I'm guessing it's gotten better, I just hope that Bungie manages to include more social tools and elements into the game, because it's really just a glorified single player game with co-op, loot, and a couple small social areas and tacked on multiplayer. Other than the raids, that is. The Raids are the only real stand out feature in the game and few players get to really enjoy them.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2017 14:36:24 GMT -5
Mainly the game needs more social tools. Yeah it's nice that other sites have stepped up and provided a lot of that, but that just shows that there is a need not being filled by the game it-self. Most players will never even know those sites and tools exist unless they are built into the game. I keep coming back to my days playing Everquest. There were a lot of tools built right into the game that helped immensely with setting up groups, and the amount of organization needed for a lot of that content was far more advanced than anything Destiny throws at you. But if other sites are doing this for you for free, no business (especially one less ruthlessly profit driven than Activision) will spend money... why buy groceries when people will buy you dinner? Mainly it's just that the social aspects of Destiny are sort of tacked on. The game is built around an extremely casual social experience, but the onus of actually making friends to play with is pretty squarely on the player. The game doesn't really make it easier to communicate with anybody, it just randomly throws some players together here and there and hopes they make friends. That's fine for some and others like me will meet a few people by other means online and that helps some too. But for a lot of players it's simply not going to do anything for them. I think what really stunted any desire to develop casual communication is when Bungie brought in fireteam chat. Reddit screamed and yelled and hooted and hollared for it... and then when we finally got it, no one used it. All of that dev and coding time, gone. I think that Bungie really felt "betrayed" for lack of a better word, that they put this effort in, that they listened to the player base for this "essential tool" that it was called at the time, and no one used it. Ever. I never did and I don't think I know one person who does. I'm not saying it's some great evil sin, but it would be nice if the game could encourage more players to actually participate in Raids. I remember the % of players that had completed a raid was always very low before. I'm guessing it's gotten better, I just hope that Bungie manages to include more social tools and elements into the game, because it's really just a glorified single player game with co-op, loot, and a couple small social areas and tacked on multiplayer. Other than the raids, that is. The Raids are the only real stand out feature in the game and few players get to really enjoy them. I would be surprised if they did anything other than what they're already doing... lfg sites and friends lists make the raids... matchmaking for strikes.... Begging random strangers in the Tower for the creepers
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2017 15:07:56 GMT -5
There are a lot of things about Destiny that should be integrated into the game but aren't, and have been implemented by outside entities. Effective inventory management, dead ghost tracking, all of the grimoire, the armory, tracking your weekly progress, LFG, etc. Personally, I'd be much happier if I didn't need to reach for DIM to transfer a weapon every 5 minutes. markopolo Yes these entities are doing it for free, but they're also making money off of it. Remember how Call of Duty Elite had the built-in video functionality? They were attempting to build a kind of social/video site to capture traffic that they felt they were giving YouTube for free. If they think integrating something into the game will make more money than it will cost, they'll build it. The reason all of the social stuff wasn't integrated into Destiny initially is almost certainly that they were being overly cautions about being concerned about the community being toxic. Games like COD or LOL have a huge stigma that comes with them, and having that stigma would have been really damaging to the brand. Without the social aspects, a more collaborative, helpful community seems to have developed. Some people were less engaged, but they can continue to slowly add social aspects. I think they probably made the right decision.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2017 15:21:10 GMT -5
There are a lot of things about Destiny that should be integrated into the game but aren't, and have been implemented by outside entities. Effective inventory management, dead ghost tracking, all of the grimoire, the armory, tracking your weekly progress, LFG, etc. Personally, I'd be much happier if I didn't need to reach for DIM to transfer a weapon every 5 minutes. markopolo Yes these entities are doing it for free, but they're also making money off of it. Remember how Call of Duty Elite had the built-in video functionality? They were attempting to build a kind of social/video site to capture traffic that they felt they were giving YouTube for free. If they think integrating something into the game will make more money than it will cost, they'll build it. The reason all of the social stuff wasn't integrated into Destiny initially is almost certainly that they were being overly cautions about being concerned about the community being toxic. Games like COD or LOL have a huge stigma that comes with them, and having that stigma would have been really damaging to the brand. Without the social aspects, a more collaborative, helpful community seems to have developed. Some people were less engaged, but they can continue to slowly add social aspects. I think they probably made the right decision. I didn't know CoD had that... I just played and didn't think too much about extra stuff like that. I just slaughter and got slaughtered in Core TDM for the PS3 and was content to live my life. I don't think it was about preventing the community from being toxic. That might have been a positive byproduct of it, but ultimately, this is about resources and cash and if it costs you less $$$ to let DIM,TDG or whomever to make an inventory manager, than you could do it inhouse, you do it... it's like outsourcing. This way, Bungie can make and develop the game. I still remember bradman saying that Destiny 1 was essentially a 2 year long paid beta for Destiny 2... they've tweeked and changed so much to find the right identity and balance between paid vs free that, at least to me, it would be foolish for them to abandon what they'e done so far. I expect very little changes from how things go from here. Hell, the 2 DLC's are supposed to drop winter 2017 and spring 2018... just like in D1.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 6, 2017 16:38:34 GMT -5
Other sites are building these tools for free... but only a small number of players are actually using them. It's easy to forget that compared to the average player everyone on this forum is a power user. The average player probably doesn't use anything to help them play the game except maybe Youtube and Reddit. Even the Reddit community is just a tiny sliver of the entire playerbase. To most people if something isn't available from inside the game it-self then it might as well not exist.
My argument is simple. Bungie should build as much functionality as possible into the game it-self and keep those players logged in rather than going elsewhere not because it generates revenue, but because it would get many players more involved and that would help a lot with retention. It doesn't matter how good the tools developed by other entities are if only a small fraction of the playerbase actually uses them.
In other words the whole point is to make the game more accessible to get more of it's content enjoyed by a larger fraction of the playerbase.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2017 19:25:20 GMT -5
mannon I agree with you that they should build the tools into the game, and that they would be a great retention tool. All of the points you made I agree with. However, from a revenue perspective it is completely overshadowed by the potential market that they left on the table with D1. They really got hammered for the lack of Single Player/Story content. They don't need to sell Destiny 2 to the people that wish D1 had a built-in LFG, the people who are playing now, because they're already sold. They sold what, 7 million copies, making it the highest grossing new IP of all time? That's nice, but the expectation for D2 is COD numbers - COD4 had 15 million, and they had a string of 25+ million titles from around MW2 through BO2. To do that, they need to follow the same formula that COD did, which is devote most of the resources to Single Player content and basically just do iterations of the multiplayer content with a few tweaks, because despite what the internet would have you believe, there are a lot of people who will pick up an FPS just to do the single player. markopolo I wouldn't call it a beta. Activision's M.O. is to hire talented developers; have them put together a great, innovative game; then pump out the same thing with minor tweaks as much as possible. Think COD, Guitar Hero, Skylanders, etc. D1 was a title which was obviously high quality and very marketable, given Bungie's pedigree, and so they put a bunch of marketing behind it. I don't expect them to make large changes either.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2017 2:41:06 GMT -5
I honestly think LFG is better off not on your console tbh. Just like item managers. Doesn't really matter how wel they make it, your phone/laptop will always have 2 advantages:
1. It is simply easier to navigate, especially with item managers.
2. It is on a seperate screen, you don't have to be behind your console, and if you are, you can do it while playing a game or during loading screens.
I wouldn't mind them working on some easy barebones LFG platform, but I hope the current one stays in place no matter what, because I feel I would rather use that. Same goes for external item managers.
In the end, any time spend on an LFG platform in game, will reduce the time spend on creating content. And if I had to choose, I would go for the latter any day. But I do understand that doesn't go for all players.
It will probably never happen, but advertising LFG sites in game (or creating their own one and advertising it in game) could be a pretty decent middle ground. Heck, now I think of it, an LFG platform that you could engage on console and laptop/phone at the same time would be the shizniz.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 7, 2017 9:49:46 GMT -5
I honestly think LFG is better off not on your console tbh. Just like item managers. Doesn't really matter how wel they make it, your phone/laptop will always have 2 advantages: 1. It is simply easier to navigate, especially with item managers. 2. It is on a seperate screen, you don't have to be behind your console, and if you are, you can do it while playing a game or during loading screens. I wouldn't mind them working on some easy barebones LFG platform, but I hope the current one stays in place no matter what, because I feel I would rather use that. Same goes for external item managers. In the end, any time spend on an LFG platform in game, will reduce the time spend on creating content. And if I had to choose, I would go for the latter any day. But I do understand that doesn't go for all players. It will probably never happen, but advertising LFG sites in game (or creating their own one and advertising it in game) could be a pretty decent middle ground. Heck, now I think of it, an LFG platform that you could engage on console and laptop/phone at the same time would be the shizniz. With regards to item managers, I'm glad that Bungie has opened up their API to the public to allow them to create some very useful apps. However, that does not excuse how woefully inadequate the in-game options are. Remember the time before the API, where you had to fly to the tower, change characters, fly to the tower again? You'd waste ten minutes waiting for someone in your party just to swap their weapons. With regard to LFG reducing the time they spend creating content - I don't think that's the case, probably. First of all, it kind of assumes that their employees all have the same skillset and can be applied to any project, which isn't the case. But also, with projects of this scale, there becomes a point where putting more manpower towards something doesn't make it go any faster, due to the difficulties of managing things, unique skillsets, etc. But implementing the LFG is likely a project that can be managed separately from the story, and be implemented without making sacrifices in that area.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 7, 2017 10:18:45 GMT -5
Remember the time before the API, where you had to fly to the tower, change characters, fly to the tower again? You'd waste ten minutes waiting for someone in your party just to swap their weapons. and then join up, admitting they forget the weapon, have to drop group, go back to the tower, look for the weapon, can't find the weapon, realize that you had the weapon all along, and rejoin. Or as I like to call it "Pulling a Company"
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 7, 2017 12:08:37 GMT -5
No jumping puzzles please. But how would you separate the men from the boys without them? LFG: Must show photographic proof of climbing the Mountaintop in the Iron Temple for Destiny 1 in the listing. Kappa I got that just to get the Wayfinder emblem from the record book a while back.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2017 12:34:18 GMT -5
I'm on board for Destiny 2 as long as the prior issues are resolved. Kind of partially echoing Witty's views...I don't want a video game experience disguised as a second job. That's the tricky part I had with the first game. I loved it. The playing with other people/friends experience rivaled anything I have ever done with games, almost as much as Call of Duty during it's heyday. The raids were incredible and so much fun playing, being with friends. But as said above, to do the raids....you needed to log LOTS of time to keep up those friends. That's the balancing act. I want to play because I love playing, not because i feel like i need to log in hours just so I can maintain the pace of my friends (and keep close to their levels). Additionally, as i have also said many times, the game HAS to eliminate the bullsh^t like the GHorn stuff. That ultimately is what helped kill the game for me. I'm deleting the game in a heartbeat if i even get a whiff of anything resembling the GHorn launcher nonsense like before. Screw that. I can't even begin to list all the Raids I was on, and was told to stay back, sit in a corner, do other things because i didn't have that launcher. Fvck Destiny 1 and how it handled that. Screw job to the max.
The whole microtransaction thing is also something that makes me want to vomit. I do understand it's something that is now part of gaming, here to stay, all of that. Doesn't mean i have to like it though. I do think it's part of the reason CoD's popularity has tanked (that and the exo suit jumping crap) FPS'ers already have enough crap going on with cheating, and when you add in the nature of technology, such as headsets, controllers, keyboard adaptor units for consoles, it already blurs the line with people with unfair advantages. Then to add people paying for better guns? To much. I can't enjoy the FPS'er experience if I don't trust what others are doing.
Looking back, I'm glad I quit Destiny when i did (July 0f 2015) It was a great decision on my part looking back. My shoulder was all healed up at that point in time and I ended up getting back into jiu jitsu again. Stopping Destiny, I suddenly had ALL this time. It was incredible. And I used it wisely. Twenty two months later in jiu jitsu and I am almost close to getting my purple belt. I feel like i have accomplished something ....something i would have never done spending all those hours just chasing after dumb online guns i was never going to get due to Destiny's rigged gaming nature. I actually feel like I have some balance in life. That's hard to do with video gaming. It can suck you in so hard. I've been there. Sucked in. From 2012 to 2015...when I was constantly hurt due to kayaking and jj...dealing with shoulder injuries, i was very prone to letting it suck me in completely. I feel the pain there. I will never go back to that again. There's to many other interesting things in life I want to do. Balance. That's the key.
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 7, 2017 13:13:53 GMT -5
I don't want a video game experience disguised as a second job. It's possible that this might not be repeated in Destiny 2 since John Hopson has departed company with Bungie a while back. Plus we have since learned that the story got changed at the last minute and the guy who ordered that got fired. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a major grind like vanilla Destiny 1 though.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2017 14:01:32 GMT -5
I don't want a video game experience disguised as a second job. It's possible that this might not be repeated in Destiny 2 since John Hopson has departed company with Bungie a while back. Plus we have since learned that the story got changed at the last minute and the guy who ordered that got fired. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a major grind like vanilla Destiny 1 though. I guess the tricky part is this. If I wait until the game is out for a month, I will be behind everyone, and then no point to playing.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 7, 2017 14:21:51 GMT -5
It's possible that this might not be repeated in Destiny 2 since John Hopson has departed company with Bungie a while back. Plus we have since learned that the story got changed at the last minute and the guy who ordered that got fired. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a major grind like vanilla Destiny 1 though. I guess the tricky part is this. If I wait until the game is out for a month, I will be behind everyone, and then no point to playing. I don't think D2 will be a grind like D1 was at launch. The grind has changed a lot over the past 2.5 years. At launch, they simply didn't have enough content to support not having a pretty brutal RNG system. At this point, they hand high-level drops out like candy. There are so many high-level activities to do and get rewards from each week - 4 raids, Nightfall, Weekly Heroic, Weekly Story, Challenge of Elders, Weekly Crucible, Trials of Osiris, and all of the weekly Crucible, Vanguard, and Shiro bounties. Consider this last update - they are essentially just handing out all of the weapons, and are expecting people to grind for the armor sets and ornaments, which are purely cosmetic. I'd expect them to go back at least a little bit towards making items harder to acquire in D2, but with the way they have the game now, if they bring anything near the amount of weekly content or brutal RNG that D1 had at launch, there would be a full-blown riot.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2017 14:55:02 GMT -5
I guess the tricky part is this. If I wait until the game is out for a month, I will be behind everyone, and then no point to playing. I don't think D2 will be a grind like D1 was at launch. The grind has changed a lot over the past 2.5 years. At launch, they simply didn't have enough content to support not having a pretty brutal RNG system. At this point, they hand high-level drops out like candy. There are so many high-level activities to do and get rewards from each week - 4 raids, Nightfall, Weekly Heroic, Weekly Story, Challenge of Elders, Weekly Crucible, Trials of Osiris, and all of the weekly Crucible, Vanguard, and Shiro bounties. Consider this last update - they are essentially just handing out all of the weapons, and are expecting people to grind for the armor sets and ornaments, which are purely cosmetic. I'd expect them to go back at least a little bit towards making items harder to acquire in D2, but with the way they have the game now, if they bring anything near the amount of weekly content or brutal RNG that D1 had at launch, there would be a full-blown riot. Ok...here's the question, maybe you can put forth your best guess. So they handing out items like it's free candy. Ok. Got it. So are they doing it because they have truly changed how they want this game to be? Or are they doing it because the player population is very low and they are trying hard to get people back? I think that's a fair question. My guess is that D2 is going to have the numbers when it comes out. Probably be a 12 to 15 million unit seller, so like 6 million on launch week. If the above situation is best defined by the latter guess, they won't have any incentive to be nice. They'll go back to their dick'ish behavior with the loot.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 7, 2017 15:10:28 GMT -5
A) I wouldn't say the player population is very low. It's probably one of the top titles in terms of players on both PSN and XBL, and has really good numbers for a game 2.5 years old.
B) It's not about how they want the game to be. Finish the story, and the game is about getting loot. They need to dole out the loot to players at a rate which sustains the playerbase until the next content drop. So if they have more loot, and more frequent content, it shouldn't be an issue.
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