markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 10, 2017 13:56:01 GMT -5
Toblerone is one of the best chocolate bars in the world and I will fight any and all who disagree to the death.
Conversation over
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Nov 10, 2017 13:59:19 GMT -5
Toblerone is one of the best chocolate bars in the world and I will fight any and all who disagree to the death. Conversation over Whatever. The more critical debate (if we can even call it a debate) is PIE>CAKE
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 10, 2017 14:02:27 GMT -5
Toblerone is one of the best chocolate bars in the world and I will fight any and all who disagree to the death. Conversation over Whatever. The more critical debate (if we can even call it a debate) is PIE>CAKE People actually debate this? clearly pie, based just solely on breadth and body of work
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 10, 2017 18:33:10 GMT -5
I HAte cake but absolutely love pie
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 13, 2017 13:27:16 GMT -5
If you ever have the chance, get the raspberry cream pie from Briermere Farms. My mouth is watering just thinking about it.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 13, 2017 15:24:43 GMT -5
If you ever have the chance, get the raspberry cream pie from Briermere Farms. My mouth is watering just thinking about it. Next time I'm in Good Ol' Riverhead, NY.... I will
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 13, 2017 16:10:14 GMT -5
What's with the lack of people streaming Destiny 2 compared to the original? Crucible crybabies got the time to kill increased to Halo/The Division levels with all OHK weapons consigned to the power slot and now many of them aren't playing their game they wanted? And even then the PvE players aren't doing the raid much. It's not because you can't carry noobs in the prestige version is it?
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 13, 2017 16:20:08 GMT -5
What's with the lack of people streaming Destiny 2 compared to the original? Crucible crybabies got the time to kill increased to Halo/The Division levels with all OHK weapons consigned to the power slot and now many of them aren't playing their game they wanted? And even then the PvE players aren't doing the raid much. It's not because you can't carry noobs in the prestige version is it? There's no grinding for weapons because there are no rolls. There's no grinding the raids because there's nothing to grind for. I can't even imagine anyone wanting to watch someone do this raid repeatedly.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 13, 2017 16:34:20 GMT -5
What's with the lack of people streaming Destiny 2 compared to the original? Crucible crybabies got the time to kill increased to Halo/The Division levels with all OHK weapons consigned to the power slot and now many of them aren't playing their game they wanted? And even then the PvE players aren't doing the raid much. It's not because you can't carry noobs in the prestige version is it? I don't think this is the game most streamers wanted. I don't think most streamers had many issues with 1-shot weapons, as streamers were the ones dominating scrubs with them all the time. The crucible crybabies are the casuals that showed up for Iron Banner once in a blue moon and complained about getting stomped when they never played PvP otherwise. I think streamers just wanted a more balanced game in general, not a total rework like we ended up with. Nobody is streaming D2 because the demand just isn't there like it was before. If they're being serious about getting views, they have to play games that people actually want to watch. For example, MTashed just made a video about shifting his youtube channel away from D2 and into a variety direction. He's been an almost exclusive Destiny channel for a long time, but the views just aren't there to support him doing only D2 content anymore. Either he has to change, or his channel dies until a new D2 content release, at which point it picks up again for a few weeks and then falls off a cliff again once people lose interest.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 13, 2017 17:04:00 GMT -5
What's with the lack of people streaming Destiny 2 compared to the original? Crucible crybabies got the time to kill increased to Halo/The Division levels with all OHK weapons consigned to the power slot and now many of them aren't playing their game they wanted? And even then the PvE players aren't doing the raid much. It's not because you can't carry noobs in the prestige version is it? There's no grinding for weapons because there are no rolls. There's no grinding the raids because there's nothing to grind for. I can't even imagine anyone wanting to watch someone do this raid repeatedly. True but that doesn't explain the drop in PvP being streamed for Destiny 2 compared to Destiny 1. There were plenty of times throughout Destiny 1 where streamers would be playing Destiny 1 and having every weapon/roll they want. A lot of streamers are playing Overwatch and Fortnite now. You could grind the prestige armour set I guess and do it for the challenge? I don't agree with the disincentive turns the game took with its endgame though. Perhaps I'm not in the same boat as most others because I raid with a dedicated bunch? This is like totally opposite of Destiny 1 where, if you didn't have elemental primaries because you didn't raid, you were royally screwed over in Nightfalls, especially for arc burn.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 13, 2017 17:26:36 GMT -5
I don't think this is the game most streamers wanted. I don't think most streamers had many issues with 1-shot weapons, as streamers were the ones dominating scrubs with them all the time. The crucible crybabies are the casuals that showed up for Iron Banner once in a blue moon and complained about getting stomped when they never played PvP otherwise. I think streamers just wanted a more balanced game in general, not a total rework like we ended up with. Nobody is streaming D2 because the demand just isn't there like it was before. If they're being serious about getting views, they have to play games that people actually want to watch. For example, MTashed just made a video about shifting his youtube channel away from D2 and into a variety direction. He's been an almost exclusive Destiny channel for a long time, but the views just aren't there to support him doing only D2 content anymore. Either he has to change, or his channel dies until a new D2 content release, at which point it picks up again for a few weeks and then falls off a cliff again once people lose interest. Well I know of one streamer that wanted OHK weapons to be power weapons. I don't think he's played Destiny 2 for months. It might have been satire but then he's a former Halo player so I'm not sure what to think. I'm not saying all Destiny streamers wanted what I see the crybabies on DTG want though. But for those wanting balancing have got their wish no? Everything is so 'balanced' we don't have exotics like Twilight Garrison, abilities recharge at Destiny 1's Trickle rate, only three or so raid weapons being top tier, raid armour doesn't do anything different that other armour does and if you wear it in the raid you are actually punishing yourself, one decent grenade etc. Exactly how much balancing can you have in a loot shooter before you make the loot hunt pointless? Give competitive game modes a fixed loadout with set guns that are not in the rest of the game and allow madness in casual playlists. If people want a more serious PvP experience that is fine but I can think of about a dozen better suited games for that.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 13, 2017 23:17:15 GMT -5
Why grind for Trials weapons when my clan gets me them for free?
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 14, 2017 2:11:32 GMT -5
Why grind for Trials weapons when my clan gets me them for free? Except most of them aren't worth using as there are better alternatives.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 14, 2017 9:04:09 GMT -5
You can't use the fact that the streams are not being watched as an argument for "x is bad", you don't know why it isn't watched and I honestly don't think it is the TTK thing (and I still think the new TTK is an improvement). The rewards are bad in this game, and I think that is why nobody cares about going flawless. Players played and watched destiny to learn about getting that flawless or getting a chance to get into that raffle. You get the same rewards if you just win a few games now. There is no proof it is tied to the lower TTK whatso ever. I think most of the popular streamers are in favor of D2 (esp on PC) over D1.
Same goes for PvE. There is no incentive for them to play. PvE stream watchers like to see players progress through the loot system, which is very short.
p.s. why do people watch Mtashed? I mean from time to time he has something informative, but does anybody actually like his "style"? How in the world is that even remotely close to funny/entertaining? I rather watch any other youtuber over Mtashed.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2017 9:24:20 GMT -5
Could the drop off be due to the issue of 1) powerful/unique weapons like the Vex and Ghorn....and 2) the ability to do raid soloing? I know from my Destiny one playing, it seemed like there were hundreds upon hundreds of 'Tubers out there doing the Raids solo. Some of them had like five to ten videos just on solo'ing one Raid like VoG. I watched dozens upon dozens of videos about the Crota raid, trying to figure out the nuances of doing it solo. It was a ton of fun.
Today in D2? There are no superweapons like the above and you can't raid solo. And with PvP, there is no nuke, there are long TTK's, so a lone wolf trying to go big in PvP is pointless. It's not very exiting to watch. So there is no real way for these 'tubers to stand out and try to make themselves look cool. Which is really what drives YouTube. Most videos are either educational in nature (how to this, that, etc...), or doing something 'cool'. Vanity. Take CoD. The popularity with YouTube and CoD, shot through the roof with the advent of the nuke in MW2. The game set sales records too, not by coincidence. YouTube nuke videos, as well as trickshotting, sniping, exploits, also went through the roof. Hand in hand, they were tied together with sales. They all fed off each other.
People want to stand out. Differentiate themselves. Video games aren't like real sports/games. In those, you do them in person. WITH other people. If you win an event, people see it. A person can get that warm fuzzy feel-good stroke to their ego if they do well. Video games? You don't have that. No one really knows. So when a game becomes more 'bland', uniform, 'fair', 'balanced' and such....it removes opportunities for people to stand out.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 14, 2017 9:50:02 GMT -5
I don't know. There are plenty of OW streamers that get views, even if they play supporting roles like tank. It does require a different audience though. I think most of it result of a lack of endgame/meaningfull rewards, therefore players are not playing it themselves and therefore stop watching streams. The streams were very populated a few weeks ago, and they will be in the near future.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 14, 2017 10:06:42 GMT -5
I don't think this is the game most streamers wanted. I don't think most streamers had many issues with 1-shot weapons, as streamers were the ones dominating scrubs with them all the time. The crucible crybabies are the casuals that showed up for Iron Banner once in a blue moon and complained about getting stomped when they never played PvP otherwise. I think streamers just wanted a more balanced game in general, not a total rework like we ended up with. Nobody is streaming D2 because the demand just isn't there like it was before. If they're being serious about getting views, they have to play games that people actually want to watch. For example, MTashed just made a video about shifting his youtube channel away from D2 and into a variety direction. He's been an almost exclusive Destiny channel for a long time, but the views just aren't there to support him doing only D2 content anymore. Either he has to change, or his channel dies until a new D2 content release, at which point it picks up again for a few weeks and then falls off a cliff again once people lose interest. Well I know of one streamer that wanted OHK weapons to be power weapons. I don't think he's played Destiny 2 for months. It might have been satire but then he's a former Halo player so I'm not sure what to think. I'm not saying all Destiny streamers wanted what I see the crybabies on DTG want though. But for those wanting balancing have got their wish no? Everything is so 'balanced' we don't have exotics like Twilight Garrison, abilities recharge at Destiny 1's Trickle rate, only three or so raid weapons being top tier, raid armour doesn't do anything different that other armour does and if you wear it in the raid you are actually punishing yourself, one decent grenade etc. Exactly how much balancing can you have in a loot shooter before you make the loot hunt pointless? Give competitive game modes a fixed loadout with set guns that are not in the rest of the game and allow madness in casual playlists. If people want a more serious PvP experience that is fine but I can think of about a dozen better suited games for that. Big difference between balancing what was there in D1 vs neutering everything that was there in D1. And once again, Bungie showed the only way the know how to balance is to nerf anything that might be too strong completely into the ground. I've said before that IMO they should have either kept strong abilities but added longer cooldowns, or made abilities weaker but kept the short cooldowns. Doing both while also raising weapon TTK gutted the core D1 experience into what we have now, which is a much slower, less interesting to watch game.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 14, 2017 10:09:36 GMT -5
I don't know. There are plenty of OW streamers that get views, even if they play supporting roles like tank. It does require a different audience though. I think most of it result of a lack of endgame/meaningfull rewards, therefore players are not playing it themselves and therefore stop watching streams. The streams were very populated a few weeks ago, and they will be in the near future. This, 100%. People who've moved on from D2 until the next DLC are not going to be watching D2 streams. They've done everything there is to do already, what's the point? They're going to watch streams of other games that they're actually playing or want to learn more about instead.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2017 10:32:03 GMT -5
Then bring back the ability to do the Raid solo.
Or at least another version of the raid, solo.
Problem solved. People play with friends to knock it off as a group. Then go back and grind for weeks trying to pull it off by themselves.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 14, 2017 11:02:38 GMT -5
Well from the streamers I know of (Dr Lupo, Ramblinnn, Ninja with no L etc) do prefer the PC version of Destiny but they barely stream it compared to Destiny 1. Is it because it's boring to watch? While I do agree the rewards are bad, it's not like they were always good in Destiny 1. Look at the Crucible, plenty of people streamed that prior to House of Wolves when it was basically an add-on. Then House of Wolves made it so you could earn exotics after a game. Then it wasn't until the Taken Spring update where you could earn exotics again from PvP. But there were still plenty of players streaming PvP content when there wasn't much to be gotten from playing it besides fun. Let's be real here, if Destiny 2 smashed records for views on Twitch, Eric Hirschberg will be blowing his trumpet over it. Now look at COD at what's available for PvP - ranked playlists, individual selectable game modes, custom games, spectator mode etc.
What about PvE? Nightfalls are revamped and can be somewhat challenging without having every enemy OHK Guardians to BS proportions. Does anyone stream these? What about the raid? Yes, fighting the Cabal is probably the least favourite faction to fight against but how many streamers take viewers for a prestige run compared to say hard mode Crota? Sure, the rewards are more lacking in the Leviathan raid but I wouldn't be surprised that people are turned off because it punishes underperforming players, as raids should. And really, how many weapons from Crota's End did people use much? Fang of Ir Yut and Black Hammer? Black Hammer was made better than it was because bosses didn't have immunity phases so they could be constantly staggered, which was later changed with subsequent bosses in future DLC (e.g. compare Urrox to The Warpriest). Then we have no powerful weapons for PvE players to chase, partly because of Crucible issues, and partly because Bungie hasn't made much content that remains challenging when players have top tier weapons. I think the progression system is only part of the reason why streamers aren't playing Destiny 2 on their channels for PvE content.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 14, 2017 11:09:30 GMT -5
Well I know of one streamer that wanted OHK weapons to be power weapons. I don't think he's played Destiny 2 for months. It might have been satire but then he's a former Halo player so I'm not sure what to think. I'm not saying all Destiny streamers wanted what I see the crybabies on DTG want though. But for those wanting balancing have got their wish no? Everything is so 'balanced' we don't have exotics like Twilight Garrison, abilities recharge at Destiny 1's Trickle rate, only three or so raid weapons being top tier, raid armour doesn't do anything different that other armour does and if you wear it in the raid you are actually punishing yourself, one decent grenade etc. Exactly how much balancing can you have in a loot shooter before you make the loot hunt pointless? Give competitive game modes a fixed loadout with set guns that are not in the rest of the game and allow madness in casual playlists. If people want a more serious PvP experience that is fine but I can think of about a dozen better suited games for that. Big difference between balancing what was there in D1 vs neutering everything that was there in D1. And once again, Bungie showed the only way the know how to balance is to nerf anything that might be too strong completely into the ground. I've said before that IMO they should have either kept strong abilities but added longer cooldowns, or made abilities weaker but kept the short cooldowns. Doing both while also raising weapon TTK gutted the core D1 experience into what we have now, which is a much slower, less interesting to watch game. Yeah I can't wait for pulse grenades to be gutted because of the Crucible and then watch people use up more power ammo against the bathers. It will just remind me of Golgoroth where nearly everyone snipes the boss despite being at short range because the alternatives are not good enough, partly because of PvP balance issues.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 14, 2017 12:20:01 GMT -5
Relevant:
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 14, 2017 13:03:55 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 15, 2017 11:07:44 GMT -5
Couple questions. Some things we can appear to be sure about... - TTK's were raised in D2, forcing more group action, team-shooting, and running away. Less action, less flanking. - Jumping/Mobility was reduced in D2, making gameplay a bit less dynamic. Skill gap reduced? - Shotguns and Fusions were put in with launchers, less availability means 1 verse 2 attacks/flanks are now less feasible - Super times were lengthened, making a typical person only get them once a game, versus two? That all makes the game more watered down I guess? Or does it? Tactics are still there, there are just different now. But it can be said that the changes would appear to make the PvP less dynamic. Less options for lone wolf type of attacking play. And most definitely hurt the solo player as now grouped up play bestows even a bigger advantage on solo randoms. If you can talk to your teammates when grouped, you can stay together easier. Solo play now sucks more. I think that's a reasonable conclusion. That all said...is this actually affecting the average player's turnout in the PvP? Is there any hard evidence for this? Any actual numbers or proof? I don't see anything of that sort. Right now, all I'm seeing is anecdotal evidence. Some Reddit posts. Some youtube videos. People saying less people are playing. None of this is really solid evidence. Most of it just appears to be people bandwagon riding on a common theme that is being paraded around these days. That because of the above changes, less people are now playing PvP, and using this theme as evidence to boost their own agenda and views (change the game) Could not the other reality be true? That PvP was never really that popular in D1 either and IF there is even a lower PvP player turnout right now, it could very well easily be due to because less people are playing the game period. If less are playing the overall game because of issues in PvE like lack of rewards, boredom, less grinding, etc....then it's only natural than fewer numbers will be in the red haired stepchild PvP part of the game. PvP has never been the driver in this game.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Nov 15, 2017 11:51:46 GMT -5
I think you're onto something, re: lower player counts.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 12:16:46 GMT -5
Using Reddit and streamers are a bad example, as they are a very vocal minority.
Streamers especially, have to push the narrative of "_____ is wrong in D2 and ____ is what could be done about it" because 1) it's popular to do so, and 2) they have nothing else to stream/write about.
They can't do character customization/Best Perk videos anymore.... they can't do gear farming videos anymore..... they can't do carry streams anymore..... they can't do "How to get better at PVP" videos because PVP is so team oriented now.... they can't do any "solo Calus" videos...
They might be able to go back to those in a DLC or two when there's more stuff to do. But 1) the game is too new with too little stuff to make those videos, and 2) the game is too new and everything that could be said or done or talked about has been.
So what else can they do? They push the salty/"_____ sucks" narrative and that's that.
Same with Reddit... it used to be a great source of TIL's and FYI's and Pro Tips.... now it just "_____ sucks/F$$k you Bungo" posts and you have to actively search for those nuggets of knowledge in the Salt Dunes.
And their influence, while loud, really isn't: Case in point... 1st Faction Rally... Reddit and the streamers were pretty much unified in their opinion that FWC had the best gear, best weapons, best everything and there was no reason to pledge anywhere else so grind grind grind FWC to get all the best stuff, and ignore the other 2 especially those Goth f$$ks Dead Orbit...
Then Dead Orbit wins.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 15, 2017 12:29:08 GMT -5
Could not the other reality be true? That PvP was never really that popular in D1 either and IF there is even a lower PvP player turnout right now, it could very well easily be due to because less people are playing the game period. If less are playing the overall game because of issues in PvE like lack of rewards, boredom, less grinding, etc....then it's only natural than fewer numbers will be in the red haired stepchild PvP part of the game. PvP has never been the driver in this game. Maybe, but I kind of doubt there are fewer people playing now than were playing D1 late in year 3. Certainly nobody on my friends list was logging into D1 with any regularity then either. From what I've gathered from streamers and youtube vids, average Destiny viewership on Twitch for Trials weekends was something like 15K-20K people. The first weekend Trials was out on PC (~7 weeks after console release), that average was 13K. I think that indicates a lack of interest in PvP moreso than anything else, because how many people who are big into PvE and don't care about PvP (the majority of players, I'd guess) are showing up to Trials streams in the first place? Probably not that many. It's people who care about or play a lot of PvP that are watching those streams. I do think a bunch of people expected more of the same or similar PvP gameplay as they got in D1, and that's not really what was delivered at all.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 12:37:26 GMT -5
Another factor that can also be wondered is how many people jumped ship from console to PC? So the console numbers are down, but it's not a lack of players but a diversification of the base?
IIRC, one of the big reasons to play PC was PVP, no?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 13:00:13 GMT -5
Oh.... I forgot another big source of streams: rewards!!
Remember how you got rewards at the end of strikes and raids.... now all you get are tokens!!!!
- Ever, No One
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 15, 2017 13:31:39 GMT -5
Well, if the stat tracking sites showed how many unique users played each part of the game and divided that up by hours spent each week we could easily see if this is the case. I'm not sure if that is available though. The number counts, last time I looked, just had player counts without time spent so this could mean Crucible figures may well be artificially inflated because of the Call to Arms milestone or whatever. It hasn't helped that Bungie pretty much disincentivised the endgame. That said, I think a lot of sherpas will have a tough time carrying noobs through on prestige. If I do find a sherpa running the raid, it is always on normal. In Destiny 1, you would see sherpas run on hard mode. Probably just as well I have a group of friends who run it "because reasons" and we knock it out in about an hour. I can't imagine using external LFG sites for this raid.
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