wings
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Post by wings on Nov 15, 2017 13:39:43 GMT -5
Oh.... I forgot another big source of streams: rewards!! Remember how you got rewards at the end of strikes and raids.... now all you get are tokens!!!! - Ever, No One Raids? Only Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine had more than a select few weapons worth using. Most of the weapons from Crota's End and King's Fall weren't worth using. Same for armour come to think about it. Not excusing the token system but it's not like the rewards have always been stellar.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 13:48:35 GMT -5
Oh.... I forgot another big source of streams: rewards!! Remember how you got rewards at the end of strikes and raids.... now all you get are tokens!!!! - Ever, No One Raids? Only Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine had more than a select few weapons worth using. Most of the weapons from Crota's End and King's Fall weren't worth using. Same for armour come to think about it. Not excusing the token system but it's not like the rewards have always been stellar. So... you're saying you'd rather watch a stream of someone getting tokens vs a stream of someone getting weapons and/or gear? I'm not arguing quality, I'm arguing that getting stuff is better than getting tokens
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 15, 2017 13:55:39 GMT -5
Raids? Only Vault of Glass and Wrath of the Machine had more than a select few weapons worth using. Most of the weapons from Crota's End and King's Fall weren't worth using. Same for armour come to think about it. Not excusing the token system but it's not like the rewards have always been stellar. So... you're saying you'd rather watch a stream of someone getting tokens vs a stream of someone getting weapons and/or gear? I'm not arguing quality, I'm arguing that getting stuff is better than getting tokens I'd rather they get something obviously. But a lot of the time I ran King's Fall it felt like a Legendary Marks farm. I want all raid armour and weapons to be treasured. Edit: You probably don't know how many times I've raided the Leviathan to see people get just tokens. If I didn't have my current crew, I'd have packed in Destiny 2 for good.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 14:51:09 GMT -5
So... you're saying you'd rather watch a stream of someone getting tokens vs a stream of someone getting weapons and/or gear? I'm not arguing quality, I'm arguing that getting stuff is better than getting tokens I'd rather they get something obviously. But a lot of the time I ran King's Fall it felt like a Legendary Marks farm. I want all raid armour and weapons to be treasured. Edit: You probably don't know how many times I've raided the Leviathan to see people get just tokens. If I didn't have my current crew, I'd have packed in Destiny 2 for good. I want it all to be treasured too... but let's also remember that Bungie doesn't want us to hold on to our gear for a long time. That's why we have stuff that can't get infused... or stuff deliberately gets left at year 1 power levels. But my original point still remains: people don't watch streamers to get tokens... they watch streamers who lose their $hit getting rare raid drops (Gjallies, KF raid helmets, etc etc)
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 15, 2017 15:10:04 GMT -5
Could not the other reality be true? That PvP was never really that popular in D1 either and IF there is even a lower PvP player turnout right now, it could very well easily be due to because less people are playing the game period. If less are playing the overall game because of issues in PvE like lack of rewards, boredom, less grinding, etc....then it's only natural than fewer numbers will be in the red haired stepchild PvP part of the game. PvP has never been the driver in this game. Maybe, but I kind of doubt there are fewer people playing now than were playing D1 late in year 3. Certainly nobody on my friends list was logging into D1 with any regularity then either. From what I've gathered from streamers and youtube vids, average Destiny viewership on Twitch for Trials weekends was something like 15K-20K people. The first weekend Trials was out on PC (~7 weeks after console release), that average was 13K. I think that indicates a lack of interest in PvP moreso than anything else, because how many people who are big into PvE and don't care about PvP (the majority of players, I'd guess) are showing up to Trials streams in the first place? Probably not that many. It's people who care about or play a lot of PvP that are watching those streams. I do think a bunch of people expected more of the same or similar PvP gameplay as they got in D1, and that's not really what was delivered at all. That's interesting. Indicates more than a lack of interest.....that number seems to be really bad. The game is only out three months, in theory the viewers now should be 2x to 3x more than what was watching at the end of the Destiny 1's life cycle. But to be 50% less? Ouch. I would still bet the PvE still ties into things. Many hard-core trials players probably still are heavily doing raids and PvE stuff. You removed the latter, many of these people will probably also stop playing the PvE. I would imagine the viewing habits flow the same way too.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 15:19:14 GMT -5
That's interesting. Indicates more than a lack of interest.....that number seems to be really bad. The game is only out three months, in theory the viewers now should be 2x to 3x more than what was watching at the end of the Destiny 1's life cycle. But to be 50% less? Ouch. D1 had 3 years and... 6? DLC's worth of content... why would D2 have more viewers to watch less content? Furthermore, considering D2 sacrificed its own end game to make the game more appealing to the masses, it's not surprising. People watch endgame. People stream endgame. If there's no endgame, there's nothing to watch.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 15, 2017 15:31:21 GMT -5
That's interesting. Indicates more than a lack of interest.....that number seems to be really bad. The game is only out three months, in theory the viewers now should be 2x to 3x more than what was watching at the end of the Destiny 1's life cycle. But to be 50% less? Ouch. D1 had 3 years and... 6? DLC's worth of content... why would D2 have more viewers to watch less content? Sales and correspondingly peak player population count is typically the strongest during the first few months a game comes out. That's when a game has it's most interest. This number will almost always be higher in this time frame, than say three years later when the game life cycle is at it's end (unless it's Counter Strike). D2 sold what? Six to seven million games in these past three months? That's a huge audience. The engage audience back in August had to have been well south of a million. No one was playing the game. So it's not about how much accumulated content is out there. It's Twitch. It's how many are tuning in NOW to watch live streams. How many out of a potential pool of players. Last summer, based on Heb's numbers, 20,000 out of say 400,000 potential players were watching. That is much more impressive than say 13,000 out of a potential six million going on right now. The latter number is terrible.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 15, 2017 15:44:04 GMT -5
But Bungie has never cared about Twitch streams.
Why would they start now?
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 9:42:03 GMT -5
But Bungie has never cared about Twitch streams. Why would they start now? That's a different topic than what I was addressing above. The topic or question of if people leaving the PvP at a faster rate than the prior game. I did read almost all of the thread from Reddit that is linked above. It's an interesting topic. When you read it all, add up all the changes made to Destiny2's PvP game, the points made are solid. PvP is now a less dynamic game. It's slower. More defensive. Fewer opponents. Less action. Less room for lone wolf activities or going out on your own. Compare it to CoD. A past good game in CoD saw a person get 20 to 30 kills. Destiny? It's a lot less, in almost the same time frame. So I do get the point being made by the streamers about how all these superstar streamers can't go big and make outstanding streams. But the real question is this....those people only account for a very very tiny fraction of the playing community. Most all the Destiny PvP playing universe is made up of decent, to average to below average players. None of these people give two fucks about the superstar Streamer's opinions or issues. Take myself, maybe a slightly above average PvP player. I don't give a fvck about those streamers. Go leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, is my opinion. So if that's true, are all the average players really caring about the changes made to the PvP?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 16, 2017 10:17:13 GMT -5
But Bungie has never cared about Twitch streams. Why would they start now? That's a different topic than what I was addressing above. The topic or question of if people leaving the PvP at a faster rate than the prior game. I did read almost all of the thread from Reddit that is linked above. It's an interesting topic. When you read it all, add up all the changes made to Destiny2's PvP game, the points made are solid. PvP is now a less dynamic game. It's slower. More defensive. Fewer opponents. Less action. Less room for lone wolf activities or going out on your own. Compare it to CoD. A past good game in CoD saw a person get 20 to 30 kills. Destiny? It's a lot less, in almost the same time frame. So I do get the point being made by the streamers about how all these superstar streamers can't go big and make outstanding streams. But the real question is this....those people only account for a very very tiny fraction of the playing community. Most all the Destiny PvP playing universe is made up of decent, to average to below average players. None of these people give two Foxtrots about the superstar Streamer's opinions or issues. Take myself, maybe a slightly above average PvP player. I don't give a fvck about those streamers. Go leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, is my opinion. So if that's true, are all the average players really caring about the changes made to the PvP? sorry.... mei culpa.... I'm an idiot... I mean to say: But Bungie has never cared about Twitch stream ers. Why would they start now? They only care about streamers for exposure... for DLC reveals. Other than that, f$$k 'em. D2 is all about the casual player and how to get the casual player to do more, get more, and make it as easy as pie for them to do so. That's why they still give out triple xp on one character to level quickier... becasue the average player will spend 2 to 3 hours playing, so maximize those 3 hours so when they get sick of CoD or whatever, they can still come in and play and not feel excluded
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 10:58:15 GMT -5
The people who stream come across a bit as whiny bitches. I can see their point, but there's no way to NOT appear like that.
The million dollar question is IF the above playing down to the casual is helping or hurting sales. And more importantly, replayability (which also affects sales, with people returning to buy DLC content)
I'm probably a casual player. I kind of like how Destiny 2 is. I do have some minor issues. I do think some of the rewards could be better, a bit more unique. Raid gear, iron banner gear is pretty blah. There are also aren't that many unique guns that sound or play differently (like the IceBreaker or Vex Mythoclast). The Raid isn't as much fun as the prior two i did (VoG and Crota), but it's ok, still fun. PvP is what it is (there's always something to bitch about with PvP). That's about it, nothing major. The game is good. Fun. All of the (to me) deal breaking issues are gone (like dumb grinding, Ghorn stuff, etc..)
From my end, I didn't play a bazillion hours when the game came out so I didn't run out of shit to do. I just last week got both my characters to level 305, so it's all good on my end, I'm still into it. It's not easy to design a game to keep a person happy, who is going to play it 60 hours a week. That's just not that easy to do.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 16, 2017 11:29:41 GMT -5
I completely agree with you... although I would say that I'm more pro-Destiny than you. But I've sort of mellowed in the sense that if I don't have a reason or a want to do something Destiny related, I'll do something else non-video game related.... but that's probably due to the fact that there is no grind (or at least, there is no grind in comparison to what was in D1) I haven't done the raid yet, mainly because I'm still disappointed with how the story ended of D2, but slowly but surely, I'm coming around to it.
As for keeping the Touch Football players happy part, I think Bungie realized two things from D1: 1) no matter what Bungie does, the Touch Football players will be excited about it, then complain about it, but they will do it anyways... so f$$k 'em, give them the impression that they're listening but Bungie will do what they want to do and that's that because ultimately, the Touch Football players will come around anyways... and 2) while the vocal 1% minority are vocal, ultimately, there are more sources of pro D2 information sources that are Bungie controlled/influenced (eurogamer, for example) than sources like reddit which is far more positive and happier than the utter chasm of salt that is DtG right now
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Nov 16, 2017 11:46:04 GMT -5
I'm pretty surprised so few people on my friends list are ever playing right now. Anecdotally or not, it seems bad.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 16, 2017 11:54:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty surprised so few people on my friends list are ever playing right now. Anecdotally or not, it seems bad. yea, but we talked about this at length too 1) There was something to do, whether it was a grind for mats, exotic drops, heroic strikes, or PVP... that was worth our time in D1... D2 is catered to those who only play 6 hours or less per week 2) other games who were competing with Destiny (COD:AW, most notably) failed to grab attention away from D1 But if you, TheHawkNY, snes chalmers, or if GodMars needs a break from robodinosaurs.... want to raid, I'd be down. Not just for the raiding experience, but to hang out and do the raid, I'd be down. I got parent teacher tonight and tomorrow... but a raid friday night... 8 my time, 9 your time..... with a Makers and Coke or twelve would be fun. Hopefully, GodMars will have his domestic chores done prior to the event. PS: godmarsdx? wtf is the dx for? the Clique? are you triple H or HBK?
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Post by GodMars on Nov 16, 2017 12:31:02 GMT -5
PS: godmarsdx? wtf is the dx for? the Clique? are you triple H or HBK? “Deluxe,” son. “Deluxe.” It’s not that hard. Also, I sold Destiny 2. Sorry!
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 14:16:56 GMT -5
PS: godmarsdx? wtf is the dx for? the Clique? are you triple H or HBK? “Deluxe,” son. “Deluxe.” It’s not that hard. Also, I sold Destiny 2. Sorry! So what was it that pushed the final button on you?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 16, 2017 14:37:39 GMT -5
PS: godmarsdx? wtf is the dx for? the Clique? are you triple H or HBK? “Deluxe,” son. “Deluxe.” It’s not that hard. Also, I sold Destiny 2. Sorry! Isn't it Dlx? whatevz, now I know
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Post by GodMars on Nov 16, 2017 14:55:52 GMT -5
“Deluxe,” son. “Deluxe.” It’s not that hard. Also, I sold Destiny 2. Sorry! So what was it that pushed the final button on you? Playing The Frozen Wilds DLC for Horizon: Zero Dawn. HZD is a masterfully done game that makes you realize how poorly done Destiny 2 is. I know you don’t do single player, iw, but if I gave you an hour to tool around in this game you’d see what I meant. Story, gameplay mechanics and controls, world size, dynamic environmental design and effects, graphic complexity and fidelity, weapon and armor diversity and modification. And HZD did it on a $47m budget. “Multiplayer” is no excuse, especially with how lacking and subpar the multiplayer content is in Destiny 2. If I had to do it again I’d have spent my $50 on WWII to get my FPS fix for the year.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 16:29:59 GMT -5
I'm not against single player/campaign type of games....for example, two of my favorite games of all time are Zelda, Ocarina of Time and GTA V. Neither are FPS'ers and both of them were just ...well, perfect in every way. The amount of exploration is just off the charts incredible. I think I spent 24 hours on GTA exploring before even doing any of the single player missions. Seriously, why couldn't Destiny have been like this? Land on an island and go wherever the fvck you want? GTA did it right. Destiny, with it's couple of planets and each just having a few tiny areas to explore, just pales in comparison.
I'll look into it. I love exploring games.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 16:36:36 GMT -5
thinking back on the above..
Take Destiny 2. At the beginning where my character loses the light and falls to the earth wounded. I stumble around and then ultimately walk into the mountains. Ok, beautiful scenery, wonderful graphics, it looked great. But it was a dumb one lane path that I couldn't get off of. Seriously, why waste fifteen minutes of my life making me walk through this? I couldn't explore. I couldn't go anywhere, except on the path. Dumb. Especially dumb when you compare it to GTA 5. With that game, I could go ANYWHERE I wanted. A mountain to my right? Go right at it, and climb it. Ocean off to the right? Just jump in it and swim.
When Destiny 1 first came out, I thought it might be like an open world GTA V experience. It wasn't anything like it.
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Post by GodMars on Nov 16, 2017 16:36:56 GMT -5
I mean, look at this. Watch the video here. That’s how much detail they put into the game. https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/7d6at5/playing_horizon_zero_dawn_the_frozen_wilds_when_i/
WTF did Bungie waste their budget on?
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Nov 16, 2017 16:47:30 GMT -5
I'll get HZD when the complete version goes on sale, like I did with Witcher3.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 16:49:09 GMT -5
I'll get HZD when the complete version goes on sale, like I did with Witcher3. I bought Witcher 3 (or whatever the most recent one was)...I wanted to like it. I really tried to like it. But I quit playing after a week.
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Post by GodMars on Nov 16, 2017 16:50:07 GMT -5
Complete version comes out Dec 5th.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 16, 2017 17:04:56 GMT -5
No grind? You're crazy. I'm #15 on DestinyTracker for Public Event Completions with 2,596, and I'm still 1,819 behind the guy who's #1. Dude's averaging 9 hours played per day.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 16, 2017 17:19:12 GMT -5
No grind? You're crazy. I'm #15 on DestinyTracker for Public Event Completions with 2,596, and I'm still 1,819 behind the guy who's #1. Dude's averaging 9 hours played per day. 9 hours a day. So over the past two months plus, he has about 630 hours played, 26 days. That's really terrible.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 17, 2017 2:26:47 GMT -5
No grind? You're crazy. I'm #15 on DestinyTracker for Public Event Completions with 2,596, and I'm still 1,819 behind the guy who's #1. Dude's averaging 9 hours played per day. But why are you spending so much time on public events? Are you missing particular exotics or?
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 17, 2017 9:02:37 GMT -5
No grind? You're crazy. I'm #15 on DestinyTracker for Public Event Completions with 2,596, and I'm still 1,819 behind the guy who's #1. Dude's averaging 9 hours played per day. But why are you spending so much time on public events? Are you missing particular exotics or? I am curious to know too. That said, of all the activities in Destiny, I would put public events right at the top. Public events, over things like Strikes, Patrols, Adventures, Lost Zones, Nightfalls, Crucible ...what else am I missing? Probably Raiding and Trials are #1 and #2...then maybe public events. They are just quick, you can be in and out fast. You don't need a lot of time to do them. It's fun smashing stuff. And there's something fun about trying to do it quickly, and have other people join in to help. It seems like 2,596 is a lot of them but I have nothing to base this on. At maybe five minutes for each event (waiting to start, doing it, getting chest, etc..)...that's 12,980 minutes. Comes out to 216 hours, or 9 days. Is there a purpose to this? Or is the goal to be #1? EDIT I looked on Destiny Tracker. I found a section that says I have done 258 activities in the PvE. I think this is the sum total of all Strikes, NF's, Patrols, Events, Adventures, Lost Sectors and such. The stats say I have done 110 Heroic events, so I'm guessing I get the heroic in half of them? So I have done maybe 220 public events. I know I have done three nightfalls so far. Maybe ten strikes. Raided five times or so? The other 30 I suppose are patrols and lost sectors. DT says I have done 269 PvP activities too, which is a total of Trials and Quickplay. So pretty much I have split time almost 50/50 between PvP and PvE. I can't be normal on that one, from what I have read. I would love to find my time spent. I think I can ballpark this. 527 events, take by 8 min per event (including down time)...so that's 4,216 min, 70 hours. The game has been out about 73 days...so I'm averaging 57 minutes a day. For me, that's still a bit to high. I wanted to keep it lower, but I can live with this.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 17, 2017 11:15:25 GMT -5
wings For the pure pleasure of killing enemies, I guess. I have all of the exotics. A couple of weeks ago I realized how close I was to the top in Public Events, and decided I might as well see how high I could get. iw5000 DestinyTracker will show you your PvE time played, not PvP. Wasted on Destiny will show you total time played in all activites.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 17, 2017 12:32:32 GMT -5
Is there a purpose to this? Or is the goal to be #1? Perhaps not #1 for everyone but, while we have external sites for looking up statistics, it will always be there. Only time I really bothered with statistics was SRL in Destiny 1 because it felt I had more control on the outcome of the match than even Rumble matches, but I didn't have time to grind it as I wanted. So I got to the highest ELO class on Guardian.gg having won 10 races in a row and then retired on a high note. Didn't really fancy learning the Timebreaker cheese as I was pushed for time and I'll probably race against Froggywoggy in the future anyway. Since it's not combat orientated I guess it doesn't matter much, but then not being a total noob with a Sparrow can be helpful for prestige Nightfalls.
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