malgato
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Post by malgato on Nov 1, 2017 12:40:30 GMT -5
One of the things I hate about the Destiny maps for Control is that they all seem to have a triangle configuration for the capture points rather than a linear A-B-C. The triangle configuration is what really encourages the ring-around-the-rosie style described by Marko. A linear setup (like on ER) forces either intense battles on B or flanking. Both seem more interesting to me.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 12:57:52 GMT -5
One of the things I hate about the Destiny maps for Control is that they all seem to have a triangle configuration for the capture points rather than a linear A-B-C. The triangle configuration is what really encourages the ring-around-the-rosie style described by Marko. A linear setup (like on ER) forces either intense battles on B or flanking. Both seem more interesting to me. Agree I do better on Control, as the flag situation helps dictate where people go. But....yeah, the running around swapping flags gets old. I don't think the four person teams help either. There's just not enough people to lock down the map. Linear maps are better. It forces a couple of unique dynamics. One, it makes a team trying to get B have to coordinate. Two, it makes them think quick on the whole dilemma of 'time vs attack'. Bull rush the B flag for a frontal assault that can be attacked quicker....or spend time running around the flanks to attack the rear back flag. It might be more open, but will take longer to get there. This all creates some fun dynamics. Triangle patterns...not so much. Especially with only 4v4.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 13:10:59 GMT -5
Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work that well. When it does work, it works well. And tbh, I really like ER as a control map, because it's the only one that you need to do work on. All the rest are brainless rotating zone capping where your team takes A while my team takes C, then your team goes to C and my team goes to B, then yours goes to B and mine goes to A and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Some IB games I did, no one ever really killed one another because both teams just capped zones avoiding conflict... and when someone did try to stay back or tried to attack, it was a 1v3 or 4 and it's free points to the other team.... ER is really the only map where both teams are actually fighting for one particular zone and there's actual conflict, rather than mindless zone capping Well on that I agree. The maps are boring rotating nonsense most of the time. Or almost all the time in Control. And you are right about avoiding conflict. If you see a potential 1 v 2 on a flag, why go attack it? There's no strategic importance to that flag. It's typically just easier to run the other flag, where no one is fighting over. That's the thing where CoD gets it right. In most of the CoD games, that B flag is a must keep flag. You don't want to give it up and it's a bitch and takes a ton of work to get back. With D2.....there's zero urgency. Two reasons. One, if they get the flag, their 'kill' is now worth more points. D2 doesn't work on a time basis like CoD. More flags mean more points per kill. So there's no reason to fight when the other team is capping. It's more prudent to avoid combat and just rotate off to the other undefended flag. The goal in D2's Control mode is to get kills....WHEN you have the + flag advantage. If you don't have the advantage, avoid fights and just recap the other flag. Most of the control games, one team typically out-kills the other by a close margin 40-35, 45-40, 51-45, etc... rarely ever does one team heavily outkill the other (you can't in D2, with the team shooting)
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 1, 2017 13:32:22 GMT -5
i like the triangle maps, screw you guys
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Nov 1, 2017 13:48:16 GMT -5
i like the triangle maps, screw you guys They are bad and you should feel bad for liking them.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 1, 2017 13:50:56 GMT -5
i like the triangle maps, screw you guys I mean..... it takes all people to make a world.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 14:09:11 GMT -5
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 1, 2017 14:23:07 GMT -5
yeah all of those triangular maps they mentionned were fun to me, and the linear ones well hell. I got SO sick of Nuketown. Demolition on that was the worst experience ever. Triangular maps are chaotic and you never know what you're going to get.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 14:40:45 GMT -5
One of the best linear Call of Duty maps out there, from BO2...Plaza Compare that to this D2 Dom map. Pure triangle. And a small one at that.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 1, 2017 14:44:44 GMT -5
Emperor's Respite is an objectively bad map for control, regardless of anyone's feelings about linear vs triangle flag layouts and what's more boring. The team that spawns at A to open the match is given a huge advantage for doing nothing besides being lucky, and has to really fuck things up to lose. It's unfair and unbalanced and no multiplayer map should be designed in such a manner. I don't think that's even debatable.
I'll take the triangle side of the argument. A good and well-organized team should be able to split 2-2 and hold 2 zones fairly consistently and not be stuck playing ring around the rosie swapping zones all the time. That said, even if constant zone swapping does take place, at least everyone is moving around and doing something instead of sitting in one spot holding down a lane on a headglitch and spawn trapping. There is nothing more frustrating IMO than being stuck in a spawn trap and having to stare at the respawn timer over and over, and as a fairly aggressive player, I don't find many things more boring than tactical loitering a lane to keep a spawn trap going.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 14:56:38 GMT -5
Right. A good team should be able to do that. But for this discussion, seeing how for all us, how 95% of our games always involve playing solo, solo play should be how things are discussed. And when you play with randoms, (that's a not so subtle hint we need to get a group together and start kicking some butt)it's a swapfest. Kind of, sort of, shitty game play. As said above, D2 is designed to make the choice easy. Go get the other empty flag, rather than fight the other people.
You make a good case for why a triangle map is better, but when I look back at all the Call of Duty Domination games I have played, the classic games I remember, just about every memory goes back to wild and crazy Linear map games. Yeah, it can become a "fire down the lane" fest IF you are playing a crappy team you have trapped....but....when it comes down to intense games, back and forth wars....it's always the close games on linear maps that come to mind. There's something just more fun in a close game capping B, with shit flying everywhere, smokes, bombs everywhere, ....getting B capped and that feeling of "HELLLL YEAHHHH, NOW IT'S OUR TURN TO PICK THEM OFF"....that's more exciting, than racing to the other side of an empty map and capping it.
edit...and spawn trapping is an art. Not so easy to do. You have to have perfect coordination amongst your teammates in regards to positioning, covering gaps, knowing bounderies and most importantly, having patience to not cross the boundaries and flip the spawn. We used to have that stuff wired down with MW3 and Black Ops. Those were fun days.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 15:15:44 GMT -5
While on the topic of solo play.
There was an article posted on the crucible playbook the other day, someone said they analyzed how many groups they encountered playing solo. The guy tested 50 games. Said something like almost half of them were pure random games, where all eight people were ungrouped. I questioned the validity of this. Not so much he was lying, but he got a weird set of data.
So I tried the same test with 14 games last night.
Out of 14 games I entered solo:
- 28.57%......4 games had all eight people solo. I went 3-1 - 21.42%......3 games had me with a 2-person squad versus a 2 -person squad. I went 2-1 - 21.42%......3 games had me and all randoms versus a team of either 2 or 3 people. I went 2-1 - 14.28%......2 games had me and all randoms versus a stack (four teammates) I lost. 0-2 - 07.14%......1 game had me with a 3-person, vs a 3-person. I went 0-1. - 07.14%......1 games had me with a 2-person squad versus a 3-person squad. I went 1-0
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 1, 2017 15:56:12 GMT -5
I don't pay super close attention to what kind of lobby makeup I get, but I do check once in a while. I'm seeing a lot of solo players and quite a few 2 person parties. Very few 3-stacks or 4-stacks. I was pretty surprised TBH. The number of people who've seemingly followed the "solo queue sucks, all I match are full teams" narrative seems way out of line with reality. I think a lot of people are getting stomped by 4 randoms and assuming they were up against a party when really it's just the shitty matchmaking putting 4 good players on one team and 4 ok-ish players on the other.
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 1, 2017 16:03:43 GMT -5
Plaza gets bonus points from me for using Mozart's Symphony No. 40 in G Minor in the jeweller shop.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 16:29:50 GMT -5
I don't pay super close attention to what kind of lobby makeup I get, but I do check once in a while. I'm seeing a lot of solo players and quite a few 2 person parties. Very few 3-stacks or 4-stacks. I was pretty surprised TBH. The number of people who've seemingly followed the "solo queue sucks, all I match are full teams" narrative seems way out of line with reality. I think a lot of people are getting stomped by 4 randoms and assuming they were up against a party when really it's just the shitty matchmaking putting 4 good players on one team and 4 ok-ish players on the other. I'm going to guess one gets a 4-stack around 1 in 10 games.
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 1, 2017 16:42:57 GMT -5
Ugh capturing B on plaza was a nightmare
Getting spawn trapped was awful on Linear maps. Triangles ftw.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Nov 2, 2017 7:18:08 GMT -5
Ah the good old days of COD, where you could actually move around a map without expecting 3 enemies around every single corner. All of those maps give me fond memories. Why does everybody like to have as many players as possible on a as small as possible map?
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wings
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Post by wings on Nov 2, 2017 7:38:30 GMT -5
Ah the good old days of COD, where you could actually move around a map without expecting 3 enemies around every single corner. All of those maps give me fond memories. Why does everybody like to have as many players as possible on a as small as possible map? You never liked Ground War on Shipment in COD4? /s
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 2, 2017 9:04:54 GMT -5
The triangle configuration is what really encourages the ring-around-the-rosie style described by Marko. By the way, I haven't been able to play any crucible because everytime I try to load it up, I get ring a round the rosie stuck in my head, because of this comment. Bad Cat!!!!! No catnip for you!!!!
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 3, 2017 9:55:04 GMT -5
Last night was a lot of fun, I got to beat the Raid after having to stop (due to time restraints) the prior three times I played. What I relief finally seeing the final boss go down. I think it took us 2 to 2:30 to do it, but that included waiting, breaks, doing side stuff in the basement, etc...Plus experimenting with different roles. Good time.
Heb and I then played five crucible games. For all the shit Crucible deservedly takes on this board, it's still the only way to get playing against other human beings. AI is always going to be AI. And even a not so good PvP FPS game is still loads of fun when you play with other people and are organized, working in sync. I had almost as much fun playing the crucible with him. We kicked some ass. Lost a very close game by one to another party of 3...but the other three games, we won by HUGE margins (Control 90-37, Supremency 70-37, Clash 50-35..ran well over a 2.0 KD in those three games) two of those games against other squads. Fun stuff.
My ELO in both Clash and Supremency is now in the 1500's (1524, 1512), so last night pushed me into the Platinum Tier for the rankings. Top 15% of players. Hebbnh is Platinum in Control. Not to shabby for both of us, seeing how most of our PvP is playing solo.
This could be fun to work towards, getting to Diamond division (top 3%)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 3, 2017 10:01:34 GMT -5
bradman and TheHawkNY helped me unlock call to arms on PMP3... thank you gents. Too bad someone else was too pooped and needed to do some light housekeeping (dusting, I believe) to play a crucible match or two with us.... Is our Resident PS4 Domestic Goddess tired today, GodMars?
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Post by blackbarney on Nov 3, 2017 10:15:36 GMT -5
Dusting?! What a QUEER
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 3, 2017 10:18:02 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I bought the CoD WW2. Downloaded it last night and played a bit this morning.
some brief initial thoughts:
1. I didn't see a single lottery or loot crate anywhere. But I do think some form of that stuff is mixed in the game. I saw people getting package crates if they achieved some sort of challenge.
2. The graphics are incredible. Much nicer than Destiny.
3. The options on the PvP are just staggering. Really hits home how basic D2's pvp is. WW2 had private matches, CoDCaster, tons and tons of options.
4. I played three games and well, didn't do well. It's tough coming from D2. Boom...you're dead. Gunfights in CoD are over in 1/10th the time (as well all know). But the graphics, sound, aiming, connection, everything seemed smooth as butter.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 3, 2017 10:20:17 GMT -5
OI!!! That's most unkind. Dust is a natural enemy of the videogame console! You should know this!
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 3, 2017 10:27:53 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I bought the CoD WW2. Downloaded it last night and played a bit this morning. some brief initial thoughts: 1. I didn't see a single lottery or loot crate anywhere. But I do think some form of that stuff is mixed in the game. I saw people getting package crates if they achieved some sort of challenge. 2. The graphics are incredible. Much nicer than Destiny. 3. The options on the PvP are just staggering. Really hits home how basic D2's pvp is. WW2 had private matches, CoDCaster, tons and tons of options. 4. I played three games and well, didn't do well. It's tough coming from D2. Boom...you're dead. Gunfights in CoD are over in 1/10th the time (as well all know). But the graphics, sound, aiming, connection, everything seemed smooth as butter. I don't think there's one person alive who would ever seriously debate that in almost every facet, that CoD's PVP outshines Destiny's PVP. EDIT: in every way shape or form, CoD is more polished, more smooth, more insert whatever facet of gaming you wish to put in than Destiny ever will be. CoD is a PVP machine that has it's execution down to a minute detailed science... (where the execution is well recieved or not is another debate) It would be a shock if CoD didn't have those features that you listed. It's like international olympic hockey with professional representation between Canada and Slovenia. While there might be an upset every century, ultimately, you know who is going to put up a superior effort and ultimately, who is going to win the game. It would be shocking if Bungie were able to pull off a Destiny game whose PVP was better than CoDs
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 3, 2017 13:34:20 GMT -5
Bungie has arguably already made two better PvP games than CoD: Halo 2 and Halo 3. I believe they absolutely could make a better PvP game than CoD if they really wanted to (and if ATVI would let them). They're never going to get there with Destiny though, not unless they bite the bullet and make some major changes. Separate PvP and PvE balance, 60 FPS on consoles (not an issue on PC, and the difference is huge and a big reason why CoD feels so much smoother), ranked play, private matches, and dedicated servers would be a start.
I've kind of gone full circle with Halo/Destiny/CoD now. Halo 2 and 3 were basically the only PvP games I played regularly back then, but Halo got dropped as soon as I played Modern Warfare. Halo felt slow as molasses after that, and was almost unbearable to play for me. Now I've played so much Destiny that going back to MW:Remastered was equally as jarring. It's still fun, but I'm not a fan of the "he looked at me first, I died" super quick TTK and twitch shooting anymore, probably because I'm 32 and my reaction speed is not what it once was. The outplay potential just isn't there in a game like that. Granted, D2 lost a lot of outplay potential compared to D1 with all the hand-holding MIDA teams, but you still have more options for getting into or out of an engagement or "outskilling" an opponent than you do in CoD IMO.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 3, 2017 13:43:54 GMT -5
Bungie has arguably already made two better PvP games than CoD: Halo 2 and Halo 3. I believe they absolutely could make a better PvP game than CoD if they really wanted to. They're never going to get there with Destiny though, not unless they bite the bullet and make some major changes. Separate PvP and PvE balance, 60 FPS on consoles (not an issue on PC, and the difference is huge and a big reason why CoD feels so much smoother), ranked play, private matches, and dedicated servers would be a start. That's why I specifically wrote Destiny and not Bungie. I complete agree that Bungie does not want to make a Halo-Destiny That also being said... if I had to guess, I think they might have to bite the bullet and do so, and I think competitive/ranked/whatever PVP might be a hallmark of D3
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Nov 3, 2017 13:54:32 GMT -5
Yeah, totally agreed. I think some of that too is going to come down to the fact that a rock-solid PvP game is going to retain a lot of players for a long time without a ton of resource allocation. No matter how great or how much PvE content they create, the hardcore players are going to blow through it way quicker than Bungie can create it. If they make PvP into something CoD-level good, though? What do they have to add? Balance patches here and there, new maps every once in a while, maybe a new game mode or two? That has to be a lot easier to come up with and create than new strikes, raids, story, etc.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Nov 3, 2017 13:59:32 GMT -5
I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that Bungie would have seperate PVP/PVE lists and nerfs and buffs.
I just don't wanna jinx it, I guess
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Post by GodMars on Nov 3, 2017 14:19:39 GMT -5
bradman and TheHawkNY helped me unlock call to arms on PMP3... thank you gents. Too bad someone else was too pooped and needed to do some light housekeeping (dusting, I believe) to play a crucible match or two with us.... Is our Resident PS4 Domestic Goddess tired today, GodMars? No, Janine was doing the dusting.
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