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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 8, 2012 2:08:41 GMT -5
So I decided to do some minimum damage testing on the rebalanced shotguns, since all anyone had tested so far was max damage. I went tested in Touch Football mode, so health was 30, but health does not regenerate. Trying the "stick the guy at the edge, and assume 1 pellet hit" method was sort of difficult, as there is no hipfire reticule, but I did tons of tests to confirm results. Getting the max range was as simple as shooting at my splitscreener, and slowly moving forward til I started getting hitmarkers, using tac inserts from there.
Anyway, here are the results
USAS - I'm 100% sure this still does 5 damage min. Had 5 hitmarkers, and the 6th pellet kill at max range. Obviously only the pellet buff happened, no damage tweaks that we know of.
Spas - New Minimum damage is somewhere between 11 and 14. Without Damage prof, was taking 3 shots every time, never 4. However, with Damage prof, it took 2 shots every time. 11 * 1.4 is > 15, so 11 is the lowest it could be. 3 shots without damage means it is < 15, so the new Min is somewhere between 11 and 14. Don't really know how to narrow it down from there.
Model - With damage, took 2 shots. This leads me to believe it was untouched at 20, as a min of 22 would have resulted in a one shot kill.
AA-12 - Pretty hard to test with the giant spread and miniscule range, but I believe this is still at 5. The highest it could be is 7, since I had a 4 hitmarker, 5th pellet kill test. Didn't feel like testing till I got that 5 hitmarker, 6th pellet kill, so yeah...
KSG - didn't test, seeing how the USAS damage was untouched, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't change this one as it had a pellet buff.
Striker - Achieved many 2 pellet kills without Damage, still 15.
Feel free to update the spreadsheet, as I'm 100% sure the 5 damage for the Spas is wrong.
EDIT: 100% confirmed that the Spas does 14 minimum damage (explanation below). Please update the Shotgun Spreadsheet with new info.
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Post by f5end on Feb 8, 2012 3:45:36 GMT -5
Just go to game options and set health to minuscule, but keep hardcore off...
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Will
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Post by Will on Feb 8, 2012 8:43:05 GMT -5
Or leave health at 100 (normal), but turn health regeneration off, then you can test it more to further narrow it down to a more accurate number between the 11 and 14 you achieved:
If it takes 10 shots to kill, it is 11 damage If it takes 9 shots to kill, it is 12 damage If it takes 8 shots to kill, it is 13 or 14 damage (could narrow down further with use of flashbangs, stuns, etc)
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Feb 8, 2012 10:21:48 GMT -5
Good job. I would like to see these tests furthered.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 10:25:41 GMT -5
Please do some more testing.
I tried doing it and just couldnt be certain about any of the results.
I know I had something like a 7 or 8 hit kill with the Spas + Range + Steady Aim at the end of its range.. full aimed over the non moving target.
It would seem unlikely for 1-2 pellets to be hitting every time, but who knows.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 8, 2012 11:57:03 GMT -5
Or leave health at 100 (normal), but turn health regeneration off, then you can test it more to further narrow it down to a more accurate number between the 11 and 14 you achieved: If it takes 10 shots to kill, it is 11 damage If it takes 9 shots to kill, it is 12 damage If it takes 8 shots to kill, it is 13 or 14 damage (could narrow down further with use of flashbangs, stuns, etc) doh, didn't realize there was an option to turn off health regeneration without hardcore mode on... that would have made things easier. And I thought of the flash/stun thing. Is it 10 damage by direct impact, and 1 damage by being affected?
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kalar
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Post by kalar on Feb 8, 2012 12:46:24 GMT -5
Interesting results. I still think the patch was an overall nerf to the SPAS, though.
I'd take 42-7x12 (pre-patch w/Damage) over 35-14x8 (post-patch w/Range) any day.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 8, 2012 14:16:43 GMT -5
lol, I'm getting some serious long shots 2hk with damage, and some almost impossible one hits! I'm seriously impressed.
"Is it 10 damage by direct impact, and 1 damage by being affected?"
IIRC, 15 damage direct, 1 by being affected. It's like throwing in the air two flashes and killing a guy anywhere (in the body) with a 98 damage sniper.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 8, 2012 18:42:46 GMT -5
Interesting results. I still think the patch was an overall nerf to the SPAS, though. I'd take 42-7x12 (pre-patch w/Damage) over 35-14x8 (post-patch w/Range) any day. It was 25-5 before, so it was 35-7x12 pellets with Damage. Now it's (not sure on these numbers) 35-14 and 49-19x8 pellets with Damage. It's not as good up close as before (Used to be a 3/12, or 25% needed to kill up close, now it's 3/8, 37.5% needed to kill, which is a lot worse), but I feel it does just as well at mid-shotgun range, and much better at long shotgun range. If you're on a good connection, I feel it is better than it used to be, but you get a lot more BS hitmarkers now. Anyway, might do some more testing tonight.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 19:51:21 GMT -5
Wait, so it IS 14 min damage?
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 8, 2012 20:02:45 GMT -5
No, haven't narrowed it down between 11 and 14. But I'm 100% sure it's somewhere between there.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 20:19:41 GMT -5
Damn! Glad to hear that.
If it is 14;
Old min: 20/15 hit kill @ 12 pellets New min: 8/6 hit kill @ 8 pellets
Thats assuming 14 damage.
So, longer range it would actually be a "true buff".
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 8, 2012 20:32:55 GMT -5
No, haven't narrowed it down between 11 and 14. But I'm 100% sure it's somewhere between there. Wow. So 11*1.4= 15.4, which means a spas-12 w/damage does a minimum of 15 damage. 7 x 15 = 105, which means that a spas-12 w/damage can potentially OHK at any range it can get a hitmarker and without damage never needs more than 10 pellets on the opponent to kill (9 if the damage is 12 or 13 and 8 if the damage is 14). That would definitely explain why it seems to almost always kill in no more than 2 shots. And yes, I'm going to yet again insist that this means the spas-12 could easily become a great shotgun again if they just upped the fire rate to something like 80 RPM. The AA12 and 1887 still need more buffing though.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 8, 2012 22:19:13 GMT -5
Alright, did some additional testing, here are the results (I should mention this is all on the 360, I didn't in my original post).
Spas is 100% confirmed at a Min damage of 14 AA-12 is 100% confirmed at a Min damage of 5 still
I figured the Spas by doing 100% health with no regeneration (can't believe I didn't see that before). I had multiple tests where I had 7 hitmarkers, and the 8th killed. I narrowed it down to 14 by having a 7 hitmarkers, then throwing 2 stuns. He died on the 2nd stun. 14 * 7 = 98, then add the two stuns doing 1 damage each = 100.
AA-12, I put on half health with no regeneration. Had a test with 9 hitmarkers, 10th killed. Therefore it's still doing 5 damage at Min.
So for a total recap of Min damages post "buff"
USAS - 5 KSG - 15 (didn't test) Spas - 14 AA12 - 5 Striker - 15 Model - 20
So only the Spas had a min damage buff. I also found some really weird stuff with the Model, but I'll make a separate thread for that.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 22:41:53 GMT -5
Thank you very much bedlam! Happy to hear it is 14. Quite the long range buff, but still a close range nerf for the Spas.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 8, 2012 22:59:12 GMT -5
Alright, did some additional testing, here are the results (I should mention this is all on the 360, I didn't in my original post). Spas is 100% confirmed at a Min damage of 14 AA-12 is 100% confirmed at a Min damage of 5 still I figured the Spas by doing 100% health with no regeneration (can't believe I didn't see that before). I had multiple tests where I had 7 hitmarkers, and the 8th killed. I narrowed it down to 14 by having a 7 hitmarkers, then throwing 2 stuns. He died on the 2nd stun. 14 * 7 = 98, then add the two stuns doing 1 damage each = 100. AA-12, I put on half health with no regeneration. Had a test with 9 hitmarkers, 10th killed. Therefore it's still doing 5 damage at Min. So for a total recap of Min damages post "buff" USAS - 5 KSG - 15 (didn't test) Spas - 14 AA12 - 5 Striker - 15 Model - 20 So only the Spas had a min damage buff. I also found some really weird stuff with the Model, but I'll make a separate thread for that. Thanks for the testing. If it's 14, some math to keep in mind: 8 x 14 = 112 Meaning the gun has the potential to 1HK at any range so long as all 8 pellets hit 14 x 1.4 = 19.6 19 x 6 = 114 Meaning that with damage, the gun OHK at any range if it gets at least 6 pellets on them and for most hitmarker ranges can get the kill if 5 pellets land. I'd be curious to see how this affects the range of the spas. I'd imagine that the 35-14 damage would make the gun have really good range for 3, 4, and 5 pellet kills, especially with damage with the downside being that you can't be off by much or else you significantly reduce your chances of getting enough pellets on them. Still, the spas-12 could use a slight RPM increase, the 1887 should do a little more damage (42-24?) and the AA12 needs to start with more ammo and do more damage (18-8 at least).
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 23:25:18 GMT -5
Spas should get a range and pellet buff IMO
+100 min damage range and another pellet.
Would be UP, but I doubt they could have damage go: 50-->40------>14, which is the ideal model IMO.
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Post by 8bitasplode on Feb 8, 2012 23:35:18 GMT -5
Spas should get a range and pellet buff IMO +100 min damage range and another pellet. Would be UP, but I doubt they could have damage go: 50-->40------>14, which is the ideal model IMO. I think the big problem is that since it does so much damage anyway, I bet that its per pellet damage is probably already better than the KSG, so upping the pellet count would make the KSG useless again. If they upped the RoF and buffed the 1887 damage a little more, you would have 3 more distinct pump-action shotguns: KSG: More consistent 1HK, High ammo, Slow RoF, Low Range SPAS-12: Higher RoF (for pump-action), Medium Ammo, High Range, Less Consistent 1HK 1887: High Damage and Range, Lowest ammo (for pump-action), Bigger hipfire, No attachments.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 8, 2012 23:43:43 GMT -5
Oh, right, I was justing speaking for the Spas.
Here's what I said on the COD forums.
"SHOTGUN: 50/49/[Varies] [Damage at certain ranges]
KSG: 100-400-600 [20 min damage] X 9 Pellets, 12 mag - 57RPM [Buff to 80?]
SPAS: 100-400-800 [10 min damage] X 8 Pellets, 8 mag - 65RPM
1887: 75-300-700 [20 min damage] X 9 Pellets, 7 mag - 65RPM
So the SPAS, if it were to be as above with no attachments or proficiencies would:
-2HK up to 100 units of range, 3HK up to 400, and drop down to a 10HK at 800
W/ Dmage
-2HK up to 400 units of range, drop to a 8HK at 800
W/ Range
-2HK up to 125 units of range, 3HK up to 500, and drop down to a 10HK at 1000
*Note that it wouldnt be instantaneous. It would 2HK for something like 432 units of range, or something like that.. because it is a linear drop, not instant.
Range is still rather pointless in the face of damage.. but, hey, what can you do when someone gives a certain class of weapons a stopping power proficiency. "
Forgive the simplicity of it.. but I dont want to edit it. Just noticed I had 70 instead of 80rpm for KSG though, fixed.
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Post by randomguy987 on Feb 9, 2012 0:44:43 GMT -5
Nice work. Thanks for all the testing.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 9, 2012 12:56:13 GMT -5
It's really a beast. I believe it's better with damage, but range is also good for silenced or not ranked-up. I got a 17m one hit kill adsing[/u] with damage! Anyway, both are awesome.
Just some quickies on my experience with it:
DAMAGE:
14 * 1.4 = 19,6 -> 100/19,6 = 5,1 -> 6
6 pellet hit kill; but since it's hard to get a shot at the very pellet vanish distance, I don't see it as wrong to simply say it's 20 min damage. Thus, 5 pellet hit kill. ALSO not taking in account possible round up to 20.
RANGE:
100/14 = 7,1 -> 8
Again, it's still pretty good. On target, never got more than 3 shots to kill, by very long distances (considering shotguns regular distances)! Of course, if you're aiming exactly on the enemy, it gets harder.
Could anyone confirm the 49 damage by Stun Testing? That would stick the 35 max damage.
EDIT:
Tried to test this myself, not working for some weird reason. PS3 online dual controller private match. Spas without damage killing in 4 hit markers and with damage not killing in 2 pellets + dual bangs.
Don't know why, but the shotties buff simply doesn't work for me in private match. Maybe it's a PS3 related issue? Anyway, could any XBOX fella try it out?
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 10, 2012 0:36:22 GMT -5
mmacola, I can confirm your results are good. But, uh, there is something seriously wrong with pellet spreads and how they appear in game. I was trying to replicate stuff like the shoot a guy and see how many pellets missed tests that lead us to believe the naked Spas and Model kill in 3 pellets. I had times where I shoot the guy, he doesn't die, i see literally one pellet on the wall. I just don't feel this is an accurate way to test.
Doing 1 pellet per shot testing, I found the max damage for the 1887 is unchanged at 30. The max Spas damage is now 30 instead of 25. Did this by shooting turning off health regeneration. For the Spas, I kept full health and shot the guy 3 times, 3 hitmarkers. Then went threw the process of tossing 10 stuns at him, and he died on the 10th. 3x30 = 90, + 10 stuns. For the Model 1887, I used Damage and put on half health. Hit one pellet, threw 8 stuns. 42 points with Damage = 30 without.
This feel more in line with how the shotuns acutally perform. The Model sure as hell is not 2/8 pellet kill up close with Damage, let's toss that out. If anyone can prove this theory people have about more than 1 pellet connecting in one shot somehow giving the damage a multiplier, go ahead. I'll go with my test results for now.
Model - 30/20 - unchanged in "buff" Spas - 30/14 - Max and min damage increased, but overall nerf from the 12 pellet Spas.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 10, 2012 0:51:48 GMT -5
And, after putting in the new numbers into the spreadsheet, the only advantage the Spas has over the Model is 1 more shot in the mag, and a tighter hipspread. The Model outclasses it at every range.
The KSG has it's nitch of being the best one shotter up to 464 units, and after that it's outclassed by the Model. Overall disappointed with how IW handled the "buff". They nerfed the Spas, AA-12 and Striker, and didn't touch the fully leveled up KSG, USAS, and Model.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Feb 10, 2012 1:40:22 GMT -5
\Overall disappointed with how IW handled the "buff". They nerfed the Spas, AA-12 and Striker, and didn't touch the fully leveled up KSG, USAS, and Model. I think it's time to cry about how bad shotguns are again...
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Feb 10, 2012 4:23:09 GMT -5
mmacola, I can confirm your results are good. But, uh, there is something seriously wrong with pellet spreads and how they appear in game. I was trying to replicate stuff like the shoot a guy and see how many pellets missed tests that lead us to believe the naked Spas and Model kill in 3 pellets. I had times where I shoot the guy, he doesn't die, i see literally one pellet on the wall. I just don't feel this is an accurate way to test. Doing 1 pellet per shot testing, I found the max damage for the 1887 is unchanged at 30. The max Spas damage is now 30 instead of 25. Did this by shooting turning off health regeneration. For the Spas, I kept full health and shot the guy 3 times, 3 hitmarkers. Then went threw the process of tossing 10 stuns at him, and he died on the 10th. 3x30 = 90, + 10 stuns. For the Model 1887, I used Damage and put on half health. Hit one pellet, threw 8 stuns. 42 points with Damage = 30 without. This feel more in line with how the shotuns acutally perform. The Model sure as hell is not 2/8 pellet kill up close with Damage, let's toss that out. If anyone can prove this theory people have about more than 1 pellet connecting in one shot somehow giving the damage a multiplier, go ahead. I'll go with my test results for now. Model - 30/20 - unchanged in "buff" Spas - 30/14 - Max and min damage increased, but overall nerf from the 12 pellet Spas. Wtf? That's seriously disappointing about the pump shotties. And all this time I was leveling the models, I thought it got an upgrade -.-
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 10, 2012 12:00:49 GMT -5
mmacola, I can confirm your results are good. But, uh, there is something seriously wrong with pellet spreads and how they appear in game. I was trying to replicate stuff like the shoot a guy and see how many pellets missed tests that lead us to believe the naked Spas and Model kill in 3 pellets. I had times where I shoot the guy, he doesn't die, i see literally one pellet on the wall. I just don't feel this is an accurate way to test. Doing 1 pellet per shot testing, I found the max damage for the 1887 is unchanged at 30. The max Spas damage is now 30 instead of 25. Did this by shooting turning off health regeneration. For the Spas, I kept full health and shot the guy 3 times, 3 hitmarkers. Then went threw the process of tossing 10 stuns at him, and he died on the 10th. 3x30 = 90, + 10 stuns. For the Model 1887, I used Damage and put on half health. Hit one pellet, threw 8 stuns. 42 points with Damage = 30 without. This feel more in line with how the shotuns acutally perform. The Model sure as hell is not 2/8 pellet kill up close with Damage, let's toss that out. If anyone can prove this theory people have about more than 1 pellet connecting in one shot somehow giving the damage a multiplier, go ahead. I'll go with my test results for now. Model - 30/20 - unchanged in "buff" Spas - 30/14 - Max and min damage increased, but overall nerf from the 12 pellet Spas. I can only hope you screwed up somewhere :/
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 10, 2012 12:21:30 GMT -5
I can only hope you screwed up somewhere :/ I know I didn't screw up, but the question remains - does connecting with more than 1 pellet at a time add on a multiplier? Or is there a chest multiplier, similar to pistols? I would guess my 1 pellet connecting was hitting in the arm, not the chest. I don't know honestly. Shottytown's video shows a bunch of 3 pellet kills when all are shot at once, but the way pellet dispersion is so weird. I wish the game developers weren't so secretive.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 10, 2012 12:31:54 GMT -5
Well, the pellets missed does work.
So if 6 pellets show, at LEAST 6 missed.
If 6 arent showing, that doesnt mean 6 hit, though.
So, shotty town's test should be accurate..
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Feb 10, 2012 13:13:25 GMT -5
I don't know why, but once I tested exactly the same way shotty town did, and a pellet was behind the enemy. I mean, it passed through him or not? It damaged him or not? Anyway...
KSG = A better Spas at close ranges.
Spas = An arguably better KSG at longer ranges.
Model = An arguably better Spas at longer ranges, but unable to be customized. (Grip or Ext. Mags).
Bedlam, what you've done so far really helped the Den community (IMO). I salute you, sir.
Anyway, is the KSG really 15 min damage? Going to test it out.
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Post by bedlam36 on Feb 10, 2012 13:31:37 GMT -5
Well, the pellets missed does work. So if 6 pellets show, at LEAST 6 missed. If 6 arent showing, that doesnt mean 6 hit, though. So, shotty town's test should be accurate.. But single pellet testing (by everyone, not just me) goes against those results. Unless there is a chest multiplier, or a multiplier if > 1 pellet land. Go by your own gameplay. I don't know if you use the Model with damage alot, but I feel there is no way in hell it's a 2/8 pellet kill up close.
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