sh58
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Post by sh58 on Nov 16, 2012 7:27:45 GMT -5
haven't used many of the killstreaks yet, but have noticed some that have a terrible ROI (return on investment). obviously not the be all and end all metric, but important nonetheless.
hunterkiller and RC-XD to me seems pointless. they both probably give you about .90 of a kill which is about 25(.9)=22.5 which is a ROI of 4% and 5% respectively.
at least the RC-XD you can aim it and maybe stop someone capping a flag or something, but at the giant cost of spending ages driving it around, the hunterkiller you can just lob and forget, but at the expense of not really being to aim it to protect a flag or anything.
a UAV as well as giving yourself and your team a huge advantage actually gives you a direct ROI this time round with the assist points. so the true value of course will be alot higher than the pure ROI.
i guess you might get around 3 assists per UAV (30 points) which gives the UAV an ROI of 8.5%. so the bare ROI is much higher than the RC-XD and hunterkiller drone and has huge advantages on top of that.
Obviously, i don't have the stats yet on the average kills of all the killstreaks, once we get some decent samples we can work out the best killstreaks, but those 2 jumped out at me straight away as downright terrible.
If you look at the lightning strike it probably only has a 4-5% ROI (2 kills average? 50/1100) but you can instantly strike and defend flags, so its additional bonuses make it reasonable.
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banana
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Post by banana on Nov 16, 2012 8:50:01 GMT -5
Interesting
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Post by Indy_Bones on Nov 16, 2012 9:19:55 GMT -5
Fair points, but what 'cheaper' killstreaks offer above a base ROI is their accessability and steady return. Maybe something like a VTOL Gunship DOES offer the best ROI, but if you can't ever get up to one then it's a moot point, and this is why we're not seeing many of the higher rewards (outside of CP drops), as most players don't have the confidence yet to consistently acheive the higher level rewards. A 1 kill HK drone may have a poor ROI, but it's infinitely better use of your scorestreak reward options than A VTOL that you NEVER manage to get... The problem is that you can't really quantify this 'ease of attainment' advantage in a fair way, so for the time being the ROI will have to be a guideline for a more skilled player, and nothing to worry about for now for a new guy
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Nov 16, 2012 10:00:52 GMT -5
Yeah it's hard to quantify the attainability part but what you can do is compare the low steaks with other low streaks. I haven't used them yet but the counter UAV and guardian are probably better to use
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Nov 16, 2012 11:04:15 GMT -5
Score streaks in this game are MUCH harder to get than in any previous CoD. To some people this is a good thing, but idk how I feel about it. In the modern warfare games the streaks are too easy to get, but I thought BO1 had it right (the amount of kills required vs the ROI). I dont really think a stealth chopper is worth an 11 killstreak, and I certainly don't think a Counter-UAV is worth a 6 killstreak. Dogs for 17? No thanks.
However, Hardline is much more powerful this time around. It turns a Lodestar from a 15KS to a 12KS, and a Swarm from a 19KS to a 15KS.
The high-end score streaks (1000+) do have a better ROI - try out the Warthog. That thing will get you at least 5 kills, on average its usually 7-10 kills, but that could be because people just dont know to hide from it yet. Either way, that thing can't be shot down, as far as I know. The VTOL is crazy powerful but gets shot down way too easily, so it also has a bad ROI.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 16, 2012 11:54:15 GMT -5
Fair points, but what 'cheaper' killstreaks offer above a base ROI is their accessability and steady return. I much prefer the stability and consistent return of bonds, myself. Stocks are far too volatile, particularly in this market.
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banana
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Post by banana on Nov 19, 2012 8:57:30 GMT -5
Yeah it's hard to quantify the attainability part but what you can do is compare the low steaks with other low streaks. I haven't used them yet but the counter UAV and guardian are probably better to use The guardian is amazing ;D
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banana
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Post by banana on Nov 19, 2012 9:03:41 GMT -5
Also the agr gets me like 10 kills average (thats being really conservative) so wouldn't that be 100% roi?
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Post by boiller on Nov 19, 2012 9:13:38 GMT -5
The AGR even on auto mode gets quite some kills, I only used two until now (from teammates packages), and one I controlled it, the other I just escorted it to make sure no one would destroy it. Unfortunatly, it seems that care package killstreaks do not count for your Combat Record, so I can´t give any other relevant info
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Post by jswift on Nov 19, 2012 14:44:26 GMT -5
All I know is that the Lightning Strike is most likely to get nerfed first. It's just too good.
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Amirror
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Post by Amirror on Nov 19, 2012 14:47:34 GMT -5
Do Guardians last forever in a match if not physically destroyed? Do they have an unlimited time of staying?
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Post by Voice from the Basement on Nov 19, 2012 18:20:33 GMT -5
Score streaks in this game are MUCH harder to get than in any previous CoD. To some people this is a good thing, but idk how I feel about it. In the modern warfare games the streaks are too easy to get, but I thought BO1 had it right (the amount of kills required vs the ROI). I dont really think a stealth chopper is worth an 11 killstreak, and I certainly don't think a Counter-UAV is worth a 6 killstreak. Dogs for 17? No thanks. Oh, bro… Treyarch are forcing us to play objective game modes, or even Kill Confirmed. Now Scorestreak ≠ Killstreaks (in MW3 Pointstreaks could be equaled to Killstreaks). You get 2 "kills" for capturing "B" in Domination, you get additional points for offensive/deffensive kills, you get assists (without Hardline Pro and based on the damage) etc. (That's why I prefer Kill Confirmed cause there you can earn Orbital VSAT having only 3–4 kills (no one picks up dog tags now – let's steal them!).) And Scorestreaks give you only a quarter of a kill for a kill. But I will totally agree with OP: attack Scorestreaks (for me it's everything except for UAVs and EMP) are pretty useless now. Yes, IMO, Sentry Gun and Guardian, if placed right, can give you lots of kills and on objective modes they can give you defense/offense bonus for a long time. That's why I play with UAV-only load out now (UAV, CUAV and Orbital VSAT): it's much more effective than attack Scorestreaks and it gives you free +10 score to streak for every teammate's kill. Or maybe I just got used to it since Black Ops (I was using Attack Dogs there after UAV and SR-71, but here, in BO II, K-9 Unit is pretty useless cause it costs to high for a weak Scorestreak)…
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Nov 19, 2012 19:29:04 GMT -5
I prefer the use and forget streaks also. The last time I used controlled streaks was in MW2 (predator). I always figured that if I spend more time gunning and less time controlling streaks, I should be getting better at the game. I was purely a specialist on MW3, with the occasional support uav/bvest setup.
It's like turning on the treadmill but not using it. You aren't going to see long term results that way lol.
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Post by Voice from the Basement on Nov 19, 2012 22:05:15 GMT -5
I prefer the use and forget streaks also. The last time I used controlled streaks was in MW2 (predator). I always figured that if I spend more time gunning and less time controlling streaks, I should be getting better at the game. I was purely a specialist on MW3, with the occasional support uav/bvest setup. Just right the same about me: in MW3, I played with Specialist only (only for first few hours of playing and playing @ Hardcоre (for a few times) I was using Support); in BO, I used non-controllable killstreaks (yeah, before Hardline Pro re-rolling feature was removed I'd been using 3 Care Packages in row); in MW2, however, all my killstreaks were or fully-, or semi-controllable: Predator, Harrier, Emergency Airdrop. But that was MW2… Being a newbie in shooters, less controllable killstreaks made me be slightly (only slightly) better than an average player. Also, non-controllable low killstreaks learned me to stop cаmping and start playing aggressively. That's their real ROI, IMO. If there were Specialist in BOII, I would have said that the game is nearly as good, as MW2. And no need in M.O.A.B. or so.
Turning back to BOII: I think people are using low "attack" killstreaks just to have the lowest-"cost" killstreaks and don't take care of losing it. And Treyarch, knowing about that, made them nearly useless.
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bluespark
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Post by bluespark on Nov 20, 2012 8:25:40 GMT -5
Maybe something like a VTOL Gunship DOES offer the best ROI, but if you can't ever get up to one then it's a moot point, and this is why we're not seeing many of the higher rewards (outside of CP drops), as most players don't have the confidence yet to consistently acheive the higher level rewards. That's why I love Homefront's concept of Battle Points. An in-match currency that doesn't reset upon death, and you can 'buy' air support for that currency. That way, no excessive defensive play (just a nicer term for tactical loitering ) in fear of losing your streak.
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Post by gentlemanjim on Nov 20, 2012 9:17:19 GMT -5
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we're forgetting about medals here (If they count as XP, after all they should do, they say they do ) HK and RC-XD (And maybe others, IIRC) Give medals worth 100xp each. These medals are shown at the end of the game Unless you're talking about the ROI counting towards another score-streak, which is a fair argument.
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Nov 20, 2012 12:41:26 GMT -5
i'm just talking about scorestreak points, not xp
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banana
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Post by banana on Nov 23, 2012 20:19:05 GMT -5
Also the agr gets me like 10 kills average (thats being really conservative) so wouldn't that be 100% roi? Nvm i forgot it's kills count as 15 points so that would be 15% roi
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richardj
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Post by richardj on Nov 23, 2012 21:01:08 GMT -5
Lightning strike rarely does anything for me. Hellstorm is like a predator and is worth about 1.4 kills. The guardian might be okay for some objective based games but I don't play those and I run by them without dying all the time. Plus, now that blackhats are out, so are guardians. Sentries are good as they net me about 2.5 kills before they are destroyed. It used to be more like 4.5 but they are getting destroyed quicker now.
I agree that if you can't get the higher killstreaks, then ROI is always zero because you can never invest in it to get a return.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 27, 2012 15:59:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you'd calculate an ROI for Scorestreaks using the score needed to earn it and the average score it provides.
They're not tied to classes, so you have selected them going into the match. They're not part of pick 10, so there's no real opportunity cost. Essentially, if you were to calculate ROI, the investment is equal for each scorestreak, and irrelevant to the calculation.
The return would be the value the scorestreak provides and the frequency at which you can earn it per match.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Nov 27, 2012 16:06:04 GMT -5
Lightning strike rarely does anything for me. Hellstorm is like a predator and is worth about 1.4 kills. The guardian might be okay for some objective based games but I don't play those and I run by them without dying all the time. Plus, now that blackhats are out, so are guardians. Sentries are good as they net me about 2.5 kills before they are destroyed. It used to be more like 4.5 but they are getting destroyed quicker now. I agree that if you can't get the higher killstreaks, then ROI is always zero because you can never invest in it to get a return. I've had the opposite experience with Lightning Strike and Hellstorm Missiles. Hellstorms take a long time to call in, can be seen coming on the minimap, can't be sped up like Predators, and have that weird delay of a second or two after they land where you're just staring at the screen. Lightning Strikes seem to come in almost instantly and leave you exposed for less time, can cover multiple areas, and generally wreck. I think a guy actually got my whole team with one - he called it in right after we destroyed the HQ by the helicopter on Carrier.
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Post by thegentleman on Nov 27, 2012 16:14:46 GMT -5
[quote author=richardj board=general thread=5287 post=118106 time=1353722468 Hellstorms take a long time to call in, can be seen coming on the minimap, can't be sped up like Predators, and have that weird delay of a second or two after they land where you're just staring at the screen. Sure they can. The left trigger boosts it just like a pred.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 27, 2012 16:15:24 GMT -5
With only 50 points difference, Lightning Strike >> Hellstorm.
Hellstorm is mainly effective against noobs. As players are de-noobified, they realize that Hellstrom is not scary after all. The time between it shows up on mini-map and raining on your head is long enough for you to put sugar and cream into your coffee, stir it well, take a sip, and then run inside cover...
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Nov 27, 2012 16:38:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't the Hellstorms' boost function work just as well against said-de-noobified players trying to react?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 27, 2012 16:43:47 GMT -5
Wouldn't the Hellstorms' boost function work just as well against said-de-noobified players trying to react? If I understand correctly: that only works well for the non-clustered drop. Most players are too greedy to choose that option.
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Post by -3055- on Nov 27, 2012 16:45:09 GMT -5
.....it has a boost function?? i thought right trigger simply clustered it? what's the boost function?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 27, 2012 16:47:51 GMT -5
.....it has a boost function?? i thought right trigger simply clustered it? what's the boost function? :-). Looks like we have another reason: many players don't even know boost exists. Left Trigger is the control to make that happen.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 27, 2012 17:22:27 GMT -5
Pro tip: scorestreak controls appear onscreen when you use them. Crazy, I know.
And, yes, you can use the Hellstorm as a Predator, but like witty said, splitting is generally more conducive to kills, hence why players prefer it.
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Nov 27, 2012 18:13:26 GMT -5
Yeah I didn't find the controls for the boost for quite a while. The boost control is in the bottom left
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Nov 27, 2012 20:32:51 GMT -5
You can boost and then deploy the cluster. In fact if you aren't doing that it's going to be hard to get any kills at all
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