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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 10:09:05 GMT -5
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Nov 2, 2011 10:14:54 GMT -5
WOW thanks xD ok i have a boner for the G3 now more than ever. too bad i don't have any friends that play this on PC. anyone wanna help me get the co-op weapons later?
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 10:22:11 GMT -5
Personal notes:
F2000 looks like the best weapon in the game on paper, that mirrors my personal experience, I can see why they're nerfing the Scar, the combination of Scar and being anti vehicle is ridiculously over powered.
M240B with a foregrip and IRNV is like cheating, stick extended mags on it for 200 rounds and you can fire a non-stop stream of bullets obliterating everything in your path.
This chart is probably going to bring about a lot of abuse on various weapons, I think we can expect multiple nerfs/buffs in future, I'm not sure what Dice were thinking for a few of these, even the numbers look unbalanced.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 2, 2011 10:29:58 GMT -5
Interesting...
EOD bot does 10 damage per "shot". Forearms, hands, and the guns themselves cannot be hit. Also, you can get headshots even if you're aiming at the crotch.
By the way, I think the Suppressed Pistols and Non-Suppressed Pistols have their stats flipped.
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Post by moyer on Nov 2, 2011 10:39:25 GMT -5
I'm handicapped apparently. Can't view the chart.
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Nov 2, 2011 10:46:27 GMT -5
you need to be logged into google account as it's google docs.
on paper it looks like the KH2002 is slightly better than the F2000, but i've used neither so maybe the KH2002 has horrible recoil or something.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 10:48:39 GMT -5
It's getting a huge amount of traffic at the moment because it's topping reddit, keep trying.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 2, 2011 10:48:42 GMT -5
I have a question about the time to kill for the AN-94... I thought the AN-94's first shot or pull of the trigger sent two bullets at your opponent basically back to back, as this is what the weapon was developed to do in real life (it's a very special weapon), and then it would continue as a fully automatic weapon with a RPM of 600 if the trigger is held down, so wouldn't the fact that you're getting two bullets at the cost of one timed bullet, during the first initial pull of the trigger change the TTK? ...at least this is how the weapon operates in the real world, just thought that they would have duplicated the same mechanic for the gun in the game... plus it would likely explain why it's TTK times are so far off from the other Assault Rifles. Also, if this is so, then I wonder if there is a time cap to prevent burst firing from sending several double shots at opponents or if that is in case the ability with this weapon, two semi-auto pulls of the trigger would in fact be sending a total of 4 bullets. To be a little more clear on the 2 round burst, it isn't like the standard 3-round burst where there is a slight delay between the 3 bullets exiting the weapon's barrel, the AN-94 was developed to send 2 bullets, literally back-to-back, so that the first one would damage body armor while the second one would penetrate the damaged area. It's why I'm very excited to tryout this weapon.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 11:20:02 GMT -5
I can confirm that you're right, this essentially drops the TTK of the AN94 by 33% provided you're accurate with your first shot.
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Post by morgothme on Nov 2, 2011 11:22:22 GMT -5
GREAT work! Been waiting for this one.. I hate to let my feeling tell me wich gun is best. Now I know some are the same in damage, so I can just pick the one that works best for me. Any reason why the m98b and m40a5 dont have a damage in the chart? I am wondering if all bolt actions are the same (thus removing the urge to get the m40a5) and if any have a 1shot kill range closeup. Keep up the great work
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Post by moyer on Nov 2, 2011 11:28:06 GMT -5
after looking through all this, still seems to me that you're better off using whatever you shoot best (least recoil). I went back to the SCAR again last night after using the M4A1 and I didn't do well at all. Too much vertical travel.
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Post by danielzy on Nov 2, 2011 11:29:03 GMT -5
Can you please upload the extraced file u got the info from ?
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Post by SheWolf on Nov 2, 2011 11:49:10 GMT -5
if this is accurate, then our fears have become true. pretty much all assault rifles are essentially the same, recoil and reloading asside. ah well, it's at least a bit realistic, since they shoot the same or similar rounds, mostly^^
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Post by moyer on Nov 2, 2011 12:10:04 GMT -5
So the G18 & M93 pistols have a shorter TTK at close range than almost any other gun?
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 2, 2011 12:14:00 GMT -5
I'm just curious as to what the multipliers are? I'm pretty sure they're not similar to the ones used in Medal of Honor...
Sniper Headshots 3.0x General Headshots 2.8x Limbs 0.8x
...because then only the SKS Sniper Rifle would not 1HK with a shot to the head from any distance. I'm pretty sure that only the SV98 (maybe the other bolt action snipers too) can do that. However, if the multiplier is 2.0x for all weapons or just Sniper rifles then many of the semi-auto Snipers should be able to 1HK at 10 meters and under. I also wonder if there are multiple head multipliers dependent on the gun or gun type or if there is just one multiplier that's standard for all guns. I would venture a guess and say there's likely a standard multiplier. I would think that is also the case for a reduction in damage for Limb shots, which who knows what that would be, maybe it matches the 0.8x multiplier from Medal of Honor.
Since it's been discovered that shots to the groin also count as a headshot, I'm assuming that means that the multiplier is activated for that wound too? I guess no man wants to go on after losing his junk and that's got to be why it hurts so much, right?
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Nov 2, 2011 12:16:05 GMT -5
if this is accurate, then our fears have become true. pretty much all assault rifles are essentially the same, recoil and reloading asside. ah well, it's at least a bit realistic, since they shoot the same or similar rounds, mostly^^ well a player has 100hp, there are only so many damage levels that make a difference when it comes to number of shots to kill: 20, 25, 34 etc. and the major difference you're forgetting (that basically didn't exist in black ops, for example), is difference in rate of fire. this combined with the other small differences is about as good as you can do for weapon variety without making guns wildly under- or over-powered for their class (i.e. 2 shots to kill is a pretty huge difference compared to 3, and so is 3 compared to 4, etc).
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Post by SheWolf on Nov 2, 2011 12:27:26 GMT -5
yeah, i suppose it's true. still, it would have been nice to see more than one and a half damage setup overall. some variation in the range, for example.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Nov 2, 2011 12:30:03 GMT -5
I just wish they had done more with range differences. As it stands, it seems slower firing weapons are completely outclassed by faster firing ones since they damage of their shots is nearly identical.
I hope there are differences in recoil and perhaps bullet drop that can make the guns feel unique, but as it stands, the guns are just a little too cookie cutter. Considering how unique each weapon was in BC2, this seems like a step backward for DICE. Hopefully, this is an issue they will address in future updates.
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Nov 2, 2011 12:48:13 GMT -5
you're right, damage dropoff over range and muzzle velocity / amount of bullet drop is another possible source of variety that they don't seem to have used. the weapons that appear a bit underpowered for their class in the TTK department such as the ak-74m and aks-74u might be balanced by having less recoil than their american counterparts (or the same recoil but it's more easily controllable due to lower rpm), but it would be cool if they had a slight range buff too. stuff like that. oh well.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 13:19:03 GMT -5
Damage drop off over range is included in the chart with 3 ranges tested. Click the about page for screenshots of the distances tested utilising 12x scopes.
Seems like 2% less damage for limb hits, not much, though that includes some rounding and doesn't seem to be entirely consistent. I'm having lag problems at the moment and can't seem to test headshot multipliers properly if anyone wants to experiment a little.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 13:29:25 GMT -5
I just wish they had done more with range differences. As it stands, it seems slower firing weapons are completely outclassed by faster firing ones since they damage of their shots is nearly identical. I hope there are differences in recoil and perhaps bullet drop that can make the guns feel unique, but as it stands, the guns are just a little too cookie cutter. Considering how unique each weapon was in BC2, this seems like a step backward for DICE. Hopefully, this is an issue they will address in future updates. I can confirm there are massive differences with bullet drop. The M98B for example has very little compared to other snipers. Given that it's shots fire at 3000ft/s in real life this seems to be emulating reality as it has considerably less bullet drop irl when compared with the other rifles also. I'd recommend it as certainly being the better long range rifle. As for recoil, I prefer the M416 over the F2000 though all my clan mates do not, I get much better results with it while using an IRNV compared to the F2000. That's just my personal opinion though, while the numbers here indicate not a huge difference between the guns I'm certain a lot of people will prefer various guns over others based on their handling. I'm pretty sure bullet travel time is far shorter for certain guns compared with others too, another factor that may unconsciously cause us to prefer certain weapons over others, especially at mid to long range. These things probably depend on the playstyles of the individuals, a rusher is certainly going to prefer a weapon that has high ROF and not be too bothered about bullet travel speed compared with someone who likes to hold tactical positions and pick people off with well placed mid to long shots, especially on the more open maps. A faster travel time would be far better than a higher ROF and slower travel time. Though this is just hypothesising on reasons certain weapons might feel better than others, I'm not certain, all I know is that the M98B absolutely 100% has a faster bullet speed and less drop, driving the idea behind the others. I have no ability to test the nuances of other weapons as the differences are smaller.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 13:39:06 GMT -5
Testing seems to indicate that if you fire the AN94 by clicking instead of holding you can in fact fire 4 bullets in two clicks, I'm not sure if there's an added delay to balance it's TTK with the other weapons but essentially that's like a 2 shot kill. If there's no added delay with this method compared with it's standard ROF holding the trigger method it would make it's TTK the best in the game.
Going to be playing with it all night and comparing kill stats to see if it checks out as being as awesome as I'm hoping. It wouldn't surprise me given how amazing the AN-94 was in BC2 until it was nerfed to death.
EDIT: And my apologies for triple posting.
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Post by greatday2die on Nov 2, 2011 14:31:10 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Den will create an more detailed chart style like for exsample BC2 on front page. Anyway keep being patient people
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 2, 2011 14:37:41 GMT -5
How did you do that, may I ask? I'm guessing you may have set the shooter up in a location on a map where bullet drop could be measured by where it impacted a structure of some sort, then aimed and fired at a specific point or target "x" meters away and had someone nearby that target to verify the impact point, to determine any differences between the weapons. Then by repeating this test for all the weapons, but within their respected average range of medium-long (a sniper's medium-long range will be different then that of a Carbine's), you could determine a drop rate in relation to each other. Is this how you're going about the test?
Well depending on how detailed DICE made their weapons to the real things they would have included "Muzzle Velocity" as one of the weapon's possible factors. Although most weapon's muzzle velocities will be dictated by the type of ammunition used and to be more exact I'm referring to the cartridges more so than the actual bullet itself. The quality (burn speed & expansion) and quantity of the propellant are the main factors, but the mass of the projectile is also a very important factor.
There is another additional factor as well, which has to do with the weapon's barrel length. Longer barrels give the propellant force more time to work on propelling the bullet. For this reason longer barrels generally provide higher velocities, with everything else being equal. As the bullet moves down the bore, however, the propellant's gas pressure behind it diminishes. Given a long enough barrel, there would eventually be a point at which friction between the bullet and the barrel, and air resistance, would equal the force of the gas pressure behind it, and from that point, the velocity of the bullet would decrease, but it's not likely that any manufacturer of a gun is going to recommend having a barrel that's not appropriate for the type of cartridge that is meant to be used. This is also why the bullpup design for firearms is so popular as it is an attempt to maintain a longer barrel, as to not sacrifice muzzle velocity performance, while still providing a weapon that's easy to handle and wield about in confined areas.
Now the actual design of the bullet itself, beyond just its mass, will have an effect on the speed at which the bullet loses it's traveling velocity which also goes in hand with bullet drop. When in flight, the main forces acting on the projectile are gravity, drag and if present, strong wind. Gravity imparts a downward acceleration on the projectile, causing it to drop from the line of sight. Drag or the air resistance decelerates the projectile with a force proportional to the square of the velocity. Wind makes the projectile deviate from its trajectory. During flight, gravity, drag and wind have a major impact on the path of the projectile, and must be accounted for when predicting how the projectile will travel. Since gravity is essentially unchanging and because we're talking about a video game where wind factors are non-existent, the bullet's drag coefficient is the major factor in how fast the bullet will slow down from it's peak muzzle velocity. Examples: There are some variations to the 5.56x45mm NATO round used in the M16, M416, F2000, KH2002, M4, G36c, SG553, M27 IAR, M249, and PDW-R, depending on the type selected. The common SS109 make has a muzzle velocity of 3,100 ft/sec. and has 1,303 ft/lbs of energy from a 20" barrel, where as the less used GP90 has a muzzle velocity of 2,970 ft/sec. and has 1,238 ft/lbs of energy from a 20" barrel. I don't know what the drag rating is for the 5.56x45mm NATO round is but I'm also sure that the different types of round likely have different types of drag as well. This level of possible factors could possible play a roll in all the different weapons in the game.
If this is so, then there are factors to be considered for what weapon to choose that we may never know until the code of the game can be cracked. I'd like to believe that DICE was able to factor in even the smallest amounts of detail. Not-to-mention, recoil, re-centering speeds, reload rates, weapon switching speeds, hip fire accuracy, bullet penetration level, barrel / bullet twist rates, ADS speeds, and any effects towards run speed. Perhaps Battlefield 3 doesn't incorporate all of that, but if so then indeed those are good things to know as well.
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Post by SheWolf on Nov 2, 2011 15:04:42 GMT -5
i think the different bullet speed/drop is only true for the 98B though. it's pretty obvious, everyone who uses it instantly notices. but for other weapons i guess it's all the same.
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Post by didjeridu on Nov 2, 2011 15:32:45 GMT -5
Several observations:
1: ARs. F2000 the best AR with the fastest RoF and lowest recoil. M16 a close runner up. The AK74M is pointless compared to the rest of the ARs. I'm leaving the G3 out of this simply because being 20 rounds and 500 RPM makes it a bit more unique.
2: Carbines. M4/A-91 are pretty much tied for being the best Carbines, but personally I give the title to the M4 because it's not ugly as sin. The AKS-74u is pretty underwhelming comparatively; I'm seeing a pattern here. Obviously the SCAR is a powerhouse now, but it won't be for long, so I'm ignoring it in the standings.
3: LMGs. M240B is easily the king of LMGs. Sad to see, but the M60 is completely outclassed. Once again, the RPK is outmatched, leaving Russians with worse weapons overall. Also, from the looks of it the M27/RPK serve no purpose other than being able to safely reload at will.
4: Snipers. With the nature of the sniper rifle beast it's hard to pick the best, and the bolt stats aren't complete either. The Russian SVD is finally equal to an American counterpart, but sadly they're both outclassed by the M39 (once it gets 20 rounds of course).
5: Pistols. Now that I see the numbers for the pistols, they definitely don't need a buff of any kind. The 1911 is a bad choice for ranged combat. The .44 is also pretty unimpressive at long range; still, it's scary how long it maintains a two hit kill. The G18 and M93R are auto/burst clones of each other. I think I prefer the G18 in the end, since auto is more versatile. The G17 is the best choice for an overall sidearm, with the Rex being the power alternative.
I won't comment on all class weapons since they're incomplete, but I will say that anyone who still thinks the UMP is OP is on crack. The main thing I'm curious about now is how suppressors function on main weapons. If the pistols are anything to go by they could have a separate damage range altogether, or perhaps just have the damage degrade faster. Likewise, I really want to know if suppressed rounds really do travel slower. That's a pretty big deal if they do, and might make the flash suppressor not completely useless: for example, a silenced sniper rifle would have greater difficulty at long range compared to a flash suppressed.
All of these observations are from an optimum efficiency standpoint, and obviously don't take any recoil, reloads, etc. into account beyond personal experience. Even so, all of the weapons are close enough that every weapon is competitive. Honestly, I don't care at all that some weapons are slightly outclassed. They're all unique enough that personal preference, playstyle, and visual appeal will be the ultimate factors in weapon choice. For example, some people prefer slower RoF weapons for the easier bursting/recoil control, accuracy maintenance, and ammo conservation. In cases like that, weapons like the AK74M and M60 aren't completely useless to that individual. And for people like me, stats are second to looks (unless the difference is huge of course). I enjoy the visual appeal of AK style and H&K weapons, and I'll use them over everything else if given the option.
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Post by skitrel on Nov 2, 2011 16:03:18 GMT -5
How did you do that, may I ask? I'm guessing you may have set the shooter up in a location on a map where bullet drop could be measured by where it impacted a structure of some sort, then aimed and fired at a specific point or target "x" meters away and had someone nearby that target to verify the impact point, to determine any differences between the weapons. Then by repeating this test for all the weapons, but within their respected average range of medium-long (a sniper's medium-long range will be different then that of a Carbine's), you could determine a drop rate in relation to each other. Is this how you're going about the test? No test in particular, as I said it's extremely obvious the moment you use the thing compared with all other rifles, it's about a half second faster at long range than other rifles in my rough estimate. Anyone that's touched it will absolutely confirm the same thing though, it feels very different to use because of it's faster speed and lower drop. As for the other guns, as I said it's too close to call and I'm not sure anyone could visually test it without the code as variances would be very small.
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eLantern
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Post by eLantern on Nov 2, 2011 16:43:56 GMT -5
The M98B's projectile speed probably has something to do with it's precision cartridge the .338 Lapua Magnum. None of the other Sniper Rifles have that cartridge, they're all shooting either the 7.62x39mm WP, 7.62x54mm R, or 7.62x51mm NATO rounds. The 7.62x51mm NATO and 7.62x54mm R rounds would be the closest in comparison to ballistic performance and nearest to the performance of the Lapua Magnum, the 7.62x39mm WP doesn't compare to the other cartridges in long range performance, but I get the feeling that the SKS which uses this cartridge will be similarly matched to the Sniper Rifles which make use of the other 7.62 rounds, especially the MK11 MOD 0 (its American counterpart in the game).
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Post by garlock on Nov 2, 2011 17:07:49 GMT -5
So is this a file rip, or is it practical?
Did you get it from shooting a guy over and over or did you get the info from cracked open game files?
The way that the damage chart is set up - it seems like a practical chart as opposed to a game rip.
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Post by danielzy on Nov 2, 2011 17:13:13 GMT -5
I think its not a file RIP.
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