dog
True Bro
woof
Posts: 10,608
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Post by dog on Mar 5, 2009 22:03:07 GMT -5
Hey guys,
Do you think it's about time that we should measure the recoil of every weapons (or at least measure the scale of viewkick and centerspeed)?
I'm always curious about the TTK between 2 weapons at long range (for example, TTK between G3 and M14 beyond 50 meters). Rate of fire definitely cannot be factored in as the recoil for both guns don't permit precise shots over that distance. So instead, we could use the recoil (probably measured by the amount of time it takes for the sight to return to the center of the screen) to measure TTK between 2 guns at long range combat.
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Mar 7, 2009 0:57:16 GMT -5
It would be virtually impossible to add Kick to the equation due to the designed random direction and force. A gun with the most kick could miracuously fire several times without moving at all while a lighter one could end up on the edge after the first shot.
The best that could be done is just go along the Time to Kill a Guy and skip a shot, "this is how long it would take if one/two/three shot(s) missed." Or prioritize the possibility of one gun having more missed shots from kick, center speed or idling ("this gun kicks less than that gun, so it is less likely to miss"; "this gun has a greater center speed, so it will recover for a follow-up shot faster"). There is also predictibality in kick, such as the M14 always kicking straight up - two 0.05 second shots can be made even before the weapon rises above a distant target.
That typed, guessing by nothing but recoil: M4 has the best potential to stay on target with automatic fire, even with the idling. Skorpion would obviously be in second place, though it does not idle, it has a subtle horizontal sweep. G3 would be third. The M16, G36c, P90, M21 and AK74u are in the same range. SAW and RPD with grips, too. The rest are a grab-bag.
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Post by ssog on Mar 8, 2009 1:59:59 GMT -5
That typed, guessing by nothing but recoil: M4 has the best potential to stay on target with automatic fire, even with the idling. Skorpion would obviously be in second place, though it does not idle, it has a subtle horizontal sweep. G3 would be third. The M16, G36c, P90, M21 and AK74u are in the same range. SAW and RPD with grips, too. The rest are a grab-bag. This is a subject near and dear my heart because I simply cannot resist going full-auto at very distant enemies. I know, logically, that I should burst-fire... but I just can't help myself. See enemy, pull trigger until he's dead. From experience, nothing tops the Skorpion in ability to stay on target. I've gone full-auto across the entire length of the map in Overgrown (from the rock outside of the barn all the way down to the wooden fence by the stone bridge) and had every single shot hit the target (generally you'll get 4 out of 5 shots hitting, but 5 out of 5 does happen). The G3 is also pretty impressive, but that's probably because I don't have a bionic finger. I've never been able to fire so fast that my second shot doesn't land at the same spot that my first shot landed at. Haven't had a lot of experience with the G3 though, because I typically only use it in HC... and when you're using the G3 in HC you never need a second shot. After that, the M4 is incredibly stable, which is why I prefer it to the G36c even if I'm using an ACOG- the G36c has better first-shot accuracy, but the M4 has better 2nd and 3rd shot accuracy, which makes it the better gun unless you're at close ranges because there's no way you're getting a 1hk even in hardcore (and if you're at close ranges, what do you need the ACOG for?). The gripped SAW/RPD also feel more accurate over distances than the G36c, which is really sort of a "good in theory, bad in practice" sort of gun. In Countdown my typical MO is to "snipe" across the map from hanger to hanger with a gripped SAW. Outside of the Skorpion, any SMG has difficulty covering the length of some of the wider maps. The P90 can almost handle it, but you still have to burst a little to get the kill. Its damage is so low at that range that it's really not worth the effort. When I grab an SMG (other than the Skorpion), I just refrain from taking a shot at anything that's further than mid-range. The M21 is sort of a class all its own, because you're never really going to unload a clip in a hurry with it. Its recoil is low enough that you can easily squeeze out two shots quickly enough that the recoil from the first doesn't have a chance to take your second off target, which is my preferred method of sniping in SC (because a 2-shot burst will kill anyone, even a Juggernaut, regardless of where on their body you wind up hitting, without requiring Stopping Power). If you slap an ACOG on it, it behaves similarly to the G3, although if you're going to ACOG a sniper, you're much better off ACOGing the M40 (to pair with Stopping Power) or, even better, the Dragunov (no Stopping Power).
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 9, 2009 3:23:00 GMT -5
At least on consoles, due to Aim Assist, I find that the G36C's TTK absolutely wrecks the M4's. The M4 shoots teddy bears filled with candy, not bullets. Also, for the same reason, MP5>AK-74u.
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Post by ssog on Mar 9, 2009 19:55:08 GMT -5
At least on consoles, due to Aim Assist, I find that the G36C's TTK absolutely wrecks the M4's. The M4 shoots teddy bears filled with candy, not bullets. Also, for the same reason, MP5>AK-74u. My experience on consoles for M4 vs. G36c is pretty much exactly the opposite. Same damage, faster RoF, less recoil, clear victory for the M4.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 11, 2009 16:47:49 GMT -5
You strongly underestimate the importance of idling, and you are overstating the ROF difference and recoil difference. IMO neither is nearly big enough to take precedence over idling.
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Post by ssog on Mar 11, 2009 22:43:51 GMT -5
You strongly underestimate the importance of idling, and you are overstating the ROF difference and recoil difference. IMO neither is nearly big enough to take precedence over idling. I'm not underestimating or overthinking anything. I'm just talking about personal experience with both guns. I *want* to like the G36c. I really, really do. I love the slow-idling ACOG, and have made much use of it. In the end, though, what it comes down to is that eventually I always just switch back to the M4 and realize just how underpowered the G36c is. I mean, the rate of motion from idle is far less than the rate of motion from recoil. If one factor or the other is going to take you off target, it's going to be the Recoil, not the Idle. And there really is a big difference between the two guns.
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Den
He's That Guy
Posts: 4,294,967,295
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Post by Den on Mar 12, 2009 1:45:47 GMT -5
Idle can be actively compensated for, especially with the M4's lack of kick. Kick is unpredictable.
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Post by ssog on Mar 12, 2009 17:18:52 GMT -5
Idle can be actively compensated for, especially with the M4's lack of kick. Kick is unpredictable. On consoles, it's a lot harder to compensate for idle, which is probably why the M16 is so popular on consoles while the AK47 and M4 rule the roost on the PC. Still, the amount that idle takes a gun away from center is far less than the amount that kick takes a gun away from center, meaning a gun is more likely to still be on target (or only require minor corrections) after accounting for idle than it is after accounting for kick.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Mar 12, 2009 23:21:05 GMT -5
Idle is easy to compensate for until you get into a fire fight. Kind of like how I can shoot a G3 at upwards of 1k RPM, just not against an enemy.
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