DMR Vs NR

[skitrel]

Ok, so I did some tests between the DMR and the Needle Rifle today, people wanted an in depth comparison.

EDIT:Basic rules of each weapon:
DMR takes 5 shots to kill, NR takes 7. This is assuming that you always make a head shot with the final shot, all other shots can hit anywhere on the opponent as they're only doing damage to shields.
Without getting a head shot it takes 3 shots with both guns to kill once the shields of your opponent have popped. The NR makes them explode, the DMR does not. Needle explosions do not affect nearby players.

Clarification: Bloom is the term used to describe the spread effect that occurs in your cross hairs.

Apx RoFs:
NR - 230
DMR - 190

The first test consists of having both weapons firing at maximum fire rate at various ranges, I used the forge world map - foundary (custom) created by another player for this, I've forgotten the user name of the player that created it. I used this because tests previously done on Halo 3 were done here. The range measurements for close, mid and long are relative to the length of the room, wall to wall being long range, mid range being wall to middle. I conducted the test at each range 10 times.


Test 1
Point blank:
DMR 10
NR 7
I don't even need to do a full write up on this, at maximum fire rate the NR wins at every other range. Every. Single. Time.

Test 2
The second test I did was to fire each weapon at the speed it takes for the bloom to completely reset.

Point blank:
DMR 2
NR 8

Close:
DMR 3
NR 7

Mid:
DMR 3
NR 7

Long:
DMR 4
NR 6

Test 3
The final test I did was NR at full auto with the DMR at bloom reset speed.

Point blank:
DMR 2
NR 8

Close:
DMR 3
NR 7

Mid:
DMR 3
NR 7

Long:
DMR 5
NR 5


I'm going to do some more tests later and will probably add to this post, I'll specifically be focusing on two patterns of firing for each gun at different ranges.
12-34-5
1-2-3-45
for the DMR

And

12-34-56
1-2-3-4-56
for the NR

So far the NR is conclusively better than the DMR in all ways. The bloom resets far faster than the DMR and allows the NR user to kill faster in almost all instances despite taking 1 extra shot to kill. The discrepancies with my results are down to human error in timing the bloom.
So far my personal observations in game are confirmed, the DMR has the ability to out shoot the NR but in general it does not because the NR bloom resets much quicker.

[acidsnow]

...Thx for the effort, but wtf is bloom? And how does the DMR kill in 2 shots at point blank range? ...I think you need to work on some labeling or something, because your work means nothing to me at this point. I might as well be reading this in Covenant!

[skitrel]

Bloom is the term used to describe the spread effect that occurs in your cross hairs.

These aren't number of shots it takes to kill someone, it ALWAYS takes 5 shots with the DMR and 6 with the NR. The numbers in my test refer to which how many times each weapon won a fight.

I've been doing some testing for the firing patterns and feel like I'm changing my mind when it comes to NR vs DMR, when you keep calm the DMR can out shoot NRs, it takes practice, accuracy and an extremely cool head to ensure that you don't spam the shots though.

I've edited the first post to clarify.

[w4gasm]

Hey i really appreciate the effort you put into your testing... that being said... I am a little confused.

(edited)

If you could find out the rate of fire (approximate) and the definitive shots to kill at different ranges we could do the rest of the math ourselves. The reset times for each guns bloom would also be good to know.

thanks dude

[skitrel]

Forgive me, I'm not sure of the maths.

RoFs - Approx rounds per minute, minus reloading, obviously.
DMR 185-190
NR 225-230

I'm not sure what it is precisely, I can't time it perfectly.

This means that it takes the DMR approximately 1.6 seconds to fire 5 shots and the NR 1.85 seconds to fire 7 shots both firing at maximum speed. This however does not guarantee kills because of the bloom adding a random factor.

I have no idea how to go about working out the exact amount of time it takes for the bloom to increase and decrease. If anyone can give me a testing method I'll be happy to do it.
I do know for a fact from testing of the fire patterns so far that you can fire 2 shots from both guns at maximum speed and still be 100% accurate, the bloom does not exit the reticule until two shots have been fired.

[individual]

My take, as I said in another thread...

DMR:
-Semi auto
-Better if every shot lands
-More bloom
-Slower to fire

NR:
-Full auto
-Easier to use if you and the other guy plan on missing headshots
-Less bloom (so easier to shoot down range)
-Quicker to fire

And so, at close range (and in most games), I'd always pick a DMR. But on the other hand, after you get far enough away a NR can effectively-counter snipe a DMR-user.

In a lot of games, you have a choice between a DMR + frags and a NR + stickies.

IMO DMR > NR, but stickies > frags. So it's a tough choice. I go with the weaker rifle if I plan on getting lots of sticky kills.

[skitrel]

Sept 20, 2010 22:03:18 GMT -5 individual said:

My take, as I said in another thread...

DMR:
-Semi auto
-Better if every shot lands
-More bloom
-Slower to fire

NR:
-Full auto
-Easier to use if you and the other guy plan on missing headshots
-Less bloom (so easier to shoot down range)
-Quicker to fire

And so, at close range (and in most games), I'd always pick a DMR. But on the other hand, after you get far enough away a NR can effectively-counter snipe a DMR-user.

In a lot of games, you have a choice between a DMR + frags and a NR + stickies.

IMO DMR > NR, but stickies > frags. So it's a tough choice. I go with the weaker rifle if I plan on getting lots of sticky kills.

This is exactly my take on it too, the thing is that the NR at mid to long range is certainly better than the DMR as it is more accurate at a higher fire rate. Funnily enough sticky grenades are almost useless at long range while frags are generally better at longer distances because you can manipulate the bounce. I certainly get a lot of cheap long range grenade kills.

This may have been intentional.

[Flubadoo]

Well the DMR takes down shield MUCH faster, but the needle rifle is very easy to use against unshielded people since it only needs 3 shots and it is also semi-homing.

[mannon]

The info I've seen says that the needle rifle shots unlike the needler ones do not home in on targets, though they do travel much faster.

[skitrel]

Oct 3, 2010 11:02:28 GMT -5 Flubadoo said:

Well the DMR takes down shield MUCH faster, but the needle rifle is very easy to use against unshielded people since it only needs 3 shots and it is also semi-homing.

NR doesn't home, it's also 3 shots to kill an unshielded opponent with a dmr.

[Flubadoo]

Oct 3, 2010 17:48:33 GMT -5 skitrel said:

Oct 3, 2010 11:02:28 GMT -5 Flubadoo said:

Well the DMR takes down shield MUCH faster, but the needle rifle is very easy to use against unshielded people since it only needs 3 shots and it is also semi-homing.

NR doesn't home, it's also 3 shots to kill an unshielded opponent with a dmr.

Well NR does home, and theater movies tell me otherwise, that NRs DO home. A tiny bit. It changes course when its almost hit the target, but it is very insignificant.

[mannon]

That could be due to latency issues. It's quite possible theater mode uses the host's timing on the positions of everyone's avatars similar to the way the killcam does in CoD. This can result in discrepancies in where a shot is aimed and where it hits.

Even if all of the data is recorded purely client side only the player's shots would be accurate as the positions that they observe all the other players at would not reflect what any of those other players saw at that perceived at that point in time.

To perform a scientific test I suggest making sure you are host in a game and testing the needle rifle on a stationary target with shots that definitely should miss. Just get progressively closer and closer to hitting the target until the homing kicks in, if it does. Make sure that the shooter is stationary as well to eliminate movement and timing issues as a variable.

Note: It is also possible that needles stuck in targets might not show up at exactly the locations where the shot would have hit, thus the game may fudge and have the needle home in on whatever location it has chosen to show the needle sticking out of. It is important to show that the shot actually would not have hit, but homed in on the target, and not just such a purely visual effect.

I suggest grabbing a DMR and as soon as you get a shot close enough that the needle hits the target, switch to the DMR and see if it can achieve exactly the same shot with no homing. This should also eliminate any error due to discrepancies between the visual avatar and the actual hitboxes.

It may be advisable to also do the tests against shielded opponents to avoid needles lodging in them, though it would be even better to do it both ways.

Until this or a test as good as this has been done I think the burden of proof lays with the homing side of the argument. I'm going to assume NR shots actually do not home until proven otherwise.

[i8]

NR explosions do affect teammates. i have a low health gamemode for custom and got a doublekill off one NR explosion but the teammate has to be EXTREMELY close

[mannon]

Oh I see... Much faster bloom reset on NR. I'll have to play with it some more, but I've been pacing my DMR shots by habit already and I prefer the greater zoom it has scoped in, especially considering scoping in gives an accuracy bonus.

I should also mention that the bloom may not happen fast enough to affect the 2nd shot, but neither the 1st nor 2nd shot is perfectly 100% accurate. I've proven in testing that there is still a fire cone when the bloom is at it's minimum size, even for the sniper rifle.

So far I've not really been faced with much in the way of either or situations, but I haven't really been able to play online very much. I will definitely look into it.

The quicker fire rate and bloom reset of the NR definitely does look like a strong advantage. Then again if one were to use a plasma weapon or some such instead to drop shields faster the DMR is actually the better weapon to swap to for the final headshot, having a higher zoom and thus more accuracy, at least until the bloom kicks in.

That also means the DMR could potentially fare better in firefight in long range shootouts where you actually use the scope, but not so well in mid range fights where you shoot "from the hip" so to speak.

Also seems like the NR would fare better against multiple targets.

In the campaign the DMR is definitely my weapon of choice, though. ;p

[ParaGoombaSlayer]

Feb 13, 2011 6:36:43 GMT -5 mannon said:

The quicker fire rate and bloom reset of the NR definitely does look like a strong advantage. Then again if one were to use a plasma weapon or some such instead to drop shields faster the DMR is actually the better weapon to swap to for the final headshot, having a higher zoom and thus more accuracy, at least until the bloom kicks in.

The NR is simply a better weapon whenever an enemy has no shields. A one hit kills weapon at a slow rate of fire, or a one hit kill weapon with a faster rate of fire? And in regards to non-head shot kills, a 3 hit kill weapon at a slow rate of fire, or a three hit kill weapon at a faster rate of fire?

That also means the DMR could potentially fare better in firefight in long range shootouts where you actually use the scope, but not so well in mid range fights where you shoot "from the hip" so to speak.

Unless you're fighting across some ridiculously long distance, the increased scope zoom of the DMR is irrelevant. The NR is more accurate and more deadly at long range. It can maintain a fast rate of fire while not sacrificing accuracy, and you have the needle super combine to fall back on.

[mannon]

My point about the plasma weapon thing was assuming zoomed in shots DMR should have greater first shot accuracy than the NR, and you only need one at that point.

After the first shot things change, of course. I'm still not willing to totally sail the DMR down the river, but I definitely recognize the NR's ROF and Bloom advantages.

Online I'd imagine the NR on average performs better. For campaign I still prefer the DMR because I can whore out any cover between me and enemies between shots so ROF isn't really an issue. In fact I fire most shots with my DMR zoomed in paced at minimum bloom for the highest accuracy at headshots. I also prefer not to waste DMR ammo against shields. ;p Of course in campaign the Elites conveniently stop what they are doing and howl at the air when you drop their shields, giving you ample opportunity to swap to the DMR for the easy headshot. It's just a shame that the plasma pistol shots are so slow. If they were hitscan nobody would ever use anything else for dropping shields. heh But then that would be a tad OP.

[ParaGoombaSlayer]

In my experience, the DMR performs better at closer ranges. But at long ranges, the NR wins out.

The inaccuracy of minimum bloom shots is so low (if it even exists) that it's pretty much irrelevant.

Feb 17, 2011 15:36:07 GMT -5 mannon said:

My point about the plasma weapon thing was assuming zoomed in shots DMR should have greater first shot accuracy than the NR, and you only need one at that point.

After the first shot things change, of course. I'm still not willing to totally sail the DMR down the river, but I definitely recognize the NR's ROF and Bloom advantages.

Online I'd imagine the NR on average performs better. For campaign I still prefer the DMR because I can whore out any cover between me and enemies between shots so ROF isn't really an issue. In fact I fire most shots with my DMR zoomed in paced at minimum bloom for the highest accuracy at headshots. I also prefer not to waste DMR ammo against shields. ;p Of course in campaign the Elites conveniently stop what they are doing and howl at the air when you drop their shields, giving you ample opportunity to swap to the DMR for the easy headshot. It's just a shame that the plasma pistol shots are so slow. If they were hitscan nobody would ever use anything else for dropping shields. heh But then that would be a tad OP.

The NR is a better weapon in campaign and firefight. Anything that has no shields will die in 3 hits, it's incredibly useful against Brutes. Hunters take more than one super combine to kill, but needle weapons are still incredibly useful against them.

With a PP and NR you can take down pretty much anything effectively in the campaign.

[mannon]

The inaccuracy of minimum bloom shots is so low (if it even exists) that it's pretty much irrelevant.

It does, for all weapons including the sniper rifle. You can test it yourself. Load up Forge World. Give yourself a sniper rifle and the weapon you want to test. Face the back wall, shoot it some and move back until you're at the longest distance that you can still see bullet decals on it. (They fade over time, but also fade away at a given distance, the Reach LOD system at work.)

Now at this distance pace fire off a whole clip then swap to sniper rifle and zoom in. Instead of seeing 1 spot with overlapping bullet decals you will see a tight grouping.

(For extra points switch back to your other weapon and pace off an entire clip with it zoomed in rather than at the default zoom and notice how much tighter your grouping will be.)

The bloom never quite hits zero. You can see that quite clearly in the hud, and it actually literally represents your cone of fire. This is something you especially notice with the magnum pistol. It's nowhere near as accurate as a DMR even sniping at a slow pace at min bloom.


As for NR vs DMR the supercombine is a good bonus, but most unshielded enemies die in 3 DMR shots too unless using the Mythic Skull. Supercombine is very good against the Brutes and that's a bonus, though there really aren't too many in the campaign except in a few key spots. I usually pop their helmets off at long range, but with an NR you don't have to be as precise.

Hunters are a pain. The supercombine is a huge help, but they eat up tons of your ammo anyway and I'm almost always hurting for NR ammo. My fav way to deal with them is to pick off all their support then do the shotgun dance at close range. Though I rarely have a shotgun Bungie fortuitously gives you one right when you have to fight Hunters more than once in the campaign. ;p

[mannon]

I was just comparing the DMR and NR while zoomed in. It looks like the minimum bloom accuracy evens out. In other words the NR has a smaller bloom circle when at rest, but the DMR has a stronger zoom when using the scope. But when I used a line on a wall as reference to and zoomed in with both weapons their minimum bloom circles appear to be approximately equivalent while zoomed in.

However, the DMR's maximum bloom circle (as pointed out shots remain within the stationary circle even when the bloom expands beyond it) and the NR's maximum bloom are not at all equivalent when zoomed in. The DMR is considerably more accurate when both weapons use a scope and are fired at the full ROF.

This points to some interesting possibilities.

[eLantern]

Crouching while firing the DMR also makes a difference in the Bloom. It makes the DMR more accurate.

[mannon]

Good point. Crouching increases the rate at which bloom resets, or reduces the time it takes, whichever way you want to think about it. You can probably still cap the bloom at the full ROF, though and nothing but zooming in reduces the at rest cone of fire.