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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 16, 2010 13:14:46 GMT -5
Hi! As many of you know the actual bar representations of the in game guns are purely cosmetic and incorrect. Because of this an awesome gentleman known as DenKirson has compiled a list of the REAL gun stats, taken straight from the games coding. Now I am going to present a rather simple argument that will show you why the AUG is better than the FAMAS. Both the AUG and the FAMAS have the same firing rate and damage however the FAMAS pulls up and right, This is due to the effect that stronger values are placed on the right side of the horizontal axis and higher values on the higher side of the vertical axis. (Top is 60, Right is 60, Left is 10, Down is 20) Basically recoil will roll a random dice and respond to those values. Because top and right are weighted so heavily the gun naturally pulls in that direction. You can test this in game to verify. The AUG on the other hand poses the same firing rate and damage but with equal pull both left and right this results in a common mean of 0 which again can be demonstrated in game. Both these weapons deal 35 max damage which means they require 3 bullets to kill a target since they are doing 105 damage. However this is where my great debate comes in. If we take the AUG and compare it to the AK47 we see that while the AUG has a faster firing rate the AK47 has 5 more damage. The AK47 requires 3 hits as well doing 120 damage. This is a problem I am having great trouble trying to solve which will result in a better combination? The faster firing AUG or the higher damage AK47. (The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges). The AK47 has a fire rate of 750 while the AUG has a fire rate of 937.5 What I have decided will be the winning factor is latency and hit detection and net coding. If I am sending packets to a server which is easier/faster for the server to handle? The high speed of the 937.5 firing rate or the slower 750 firing rate? I know many of you will consider this over thinking the game, but in my eyes in a game in which milliseconds matter it is of importance. Right now I can conclude that at short to medium distances the AUG will be better however at higher medium to longer ranges the AK47 will be better. What matters most out of these two factors is the range in which most engagements are made.
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kalar
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Post by kalar on Nov 16, 2010 13:31:00 GMT -5
You're missing two pieces here:
FAM centerspeed is higher (1600 vs 1500) AUG has more downwards recoil (30 vs 20).
In my experience, the FAMAS is more accurate for the first few shots but tends to pull to heavily to the right afterwards. The AUG is more consistent, moderate recoil.
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moses
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Post by moses on Nov 16, 2010 13:36:21 GMT -5
First thing's first: in all statistical aspects, the Commando beats the AK-47.
The damage difference only matters situationally, a la two headshots up close with the AK-47, or attacking a specifically damaged enemy where one or two bullets from the AK-47 will have killed them whereas the AUG would not have in the same amount of bullets, or you're at a very particular range where you would kill in two shots with the AK-47 while you would have deteriorated already into 3 hit kill range with the AUG.
In the long run, without Stopping Power, it means very, very little. 3 shots up close, 4 shots from afar.
The farther you get, the better off you would be with the Commando over the AUG. I will say this: lots of fire fights in this game seem to happen at medium range from cover to cover or up close. In that respect, use the AUG, which can spray very effectively and go full auto up to roughly medium range. If you like to camp or try to stick back a bit, I'd say use the Commando.
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Post by coelomate on Nov 16, 2010 15:10:13 GMT -5
"(The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges)"
...uh....
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Post by guillermus on Nov 16, 2010 15:56:51 GMT -5
"(The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges)" ...uh.... I think he means that after each shot, it adds less recoil total compared to the AUG, i guess that was what he meant to said.
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Post by jalebi on Nov 16, 2010 16:16:47 GMT -5
What if we factor in the Stoner63 into this discussion?
It will always take 3 shots to kill, no matter the distance and its centre speed is 1700 (as opposed to 1500 for Commando/Ak47/AUG and 1600 for FAMAS). On top of that its recoil is 60 up, 40 down, 70 right and 70 left, resulting in arguably the tightest recoil spread of any of the weapons. The fire-rate matches that of the FAMAS and AUG at 937.5 RPM.
Its main disadvantages are slower movement speed and ADS.
How would you rate this weapon compared to the others seeing as it has both the high ROF and high damage?
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 16, 2010 16:32:32 GMT -5
"(The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges)" ...uh.... I think he means that after each shot, it adds less recoil total compared to the AUG, i guess that was what he meant to said. Yes that is what I meant. But what I am asking about is if the increased rate of fire from the AUG is better than the higher damage of the AK47.
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 16, 2010 16:34:31 GMT -5
You're missing two pieces here: FAM centerspeed is higher (1600 vs 1500) AUG has more downwards recoil (30 vs 20). In my experience, the FAMAS is more accurate for the first few shots but tends to pull to heavily to the right afterwards. The AUG is more consistent, moderate recoil. Wouldn't the downward pull help counter the upward pull thus making it more centered?
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 16, 2010 16:36:51 GMT -5
What if we factor in the Stoner63 into this discussion? It will always take 3 shots to kill, no matter the distance and its centre speed is 1700 (as opposed to 1500 for Commando/Ak47/AUG and 1600 for FAMAS). On top of that its recoil is 60 up, 40 down, 70 right and 70 left, resulting in arguably the tightest recoil spread of any of the weapons. The fire-rate matches that of the FAMAS and AUG at 937.5 RPM. Its main disadvantages are slower movement speed and ADS. How would you rate this weapon compared to the others seeing as it has both the high ROF and high damage? Great points the LMG's in this game are highly undervalued by most players because of the disadvantages you mentioned. Even the starting LMG has great accuracy. However like you said the ADS and Movement speed are a problem. I know one of the perks increases ADS and Light weight increases movement speed. I anticipate that once people realize this it will become very popular.
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Post by guillermus on Nov 16, 2010 16:39:40 GMT -5
SoH Pro is a must have for me due to my shitty connection, and i really like the faster ADS on the Stoner63 and M60 (faster reload is of course awesome too). Lightweight would be nice only on the M60 because you have at least 100+100 bullets. Not too convinced on run lightweight on the Stoner63 and run quite fast out of bullets.
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IL TJ
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Post by IL TJ on Nov 16, 2010 16:49:02 GMT -5
I burst fire all the time and am good at compensating for recoil, so I use the FAMAS.
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 16, 2010 16:53:05 GMT -5
I burst fire all the time and am good at compensating for recoil, so I use the FAMAS. How exactly do you compensate? I know burst firing is the best for all ARs. I also find that if I am running w/o scavenger or extended mags the FAMAS and AUG just chew through ammo. I started using the decoy today and it is hilarious when used with a claymore. I never really realized how many people just run straight to a red dot. I am thinking that suppressors are a must have now.
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Post by Ishbane on Nov 16, 2010 17:40:42 GMT -5
What if we factor in the Stoner63 into this discussion? Its main disadvantages are slower movement speed and ADS. ADS is the same as ARs.
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Post by jalebi on Nov 16, 2010 18:17:37 GMT -5
What if we factor in the Stoner63 into this discussion? Its main disadvantages are slower movement speed and ADS. ADS is the same as ARs. Uhhhhh....no. 0.35 vs 0.25 denkirson.xanga.com/735016527/black-ops/
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aequinox
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Post by aequinox on Nov 16, 2010 18:28:32 GMT -5
"(The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges)" ...uh.... Uh? Less rate of fire equals less recoil, equals more bullets on target, something quite difficult at long range.
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Post by coelomate on Nov 16, 2010 19:51:48 GMT -5
"(The AK47 is slightly more accurate due to its slower ROF thus it is clearly better at longer ranges)" ...uh.... Uh? Less rate of fire equals less recoil, equals more bullets on target, something quite difficult at long range. At any fixed range, both guns will take the same number of bullets to kill a target. The AK will fire those bullets more slowly. To the extent the FAMAS or AUG are "less accurate" that is only true after they have already fired MORE BULLETS. i.e. after firing 6 rounds, both guns will have had the same amount of recoil. But those 6 rounds will get out faster from the AUG or the FAMAS. Calling the AK47 more accurate because it fires more slowly is just absurd. In a typical firing pattern, shooting in 3-4 round bursts, the RoF is not going to be determining gun accuracy. If you don't believe it, fire up a map and look at some patterns between guns with and without rapid fire. That's a particularly stark way to see the point illustrated.
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Post by mrboo2501 on Nov 16, 2010 20:08:08 GMT -5
Uh? Less rate of fire equals less recoil, equals more bullets on target, something quite difficult at long range. At any fixed range, both guns will take the same number of bullets to kill a target. The AK will fire those bullets more slowly. To the extent the FAMAS or AUG are "less accurate" that is only true after they have already fired MORE BULLETS. i.e. after firing 6 rounds, both guns will have had the same amount of recoil. But those 6 rounds will get out faster from the AUG or the FAMAS. Calling the AK47 more accurate because it fires more slowly is just absurd. In a typical firing pattern, shooting in 3-4 round bursts, the RoF is not going to be determining gun accuracy. If you don't believe it, fire up a map and look at some patterns between guns with and without rapid fire. That's a particularly stark way to see the point illustrated. I believe they are accounting for re-centering (i.e., Center Speed) in between bullets.
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Post by w4gasm on Nov 16, 2010 20:16:14 GMT -5
It's not absurd...
If you are not burst firing then the AK47 will have a better overall spread than the Famas, which will go out of control in comparison.
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 17, 2010 1:10:14 GMT -5
Guys this thread is getting off track. I wanted to know if a gun with a higher rate of fire but 5 less damage is better than a slower firing gun with 5 more damage
937.5 RPM vs 750 RPM
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Post by mw0swedeking on Nov 17, 2010 1:37:05 GMT -5
Same number of bullets to kill - headshots blah blah blah (if you're heatmap looks anything like mine you will see this is a non issue. If your heatmap has a lot of headshots... maybe it's an issue) Same recoil figures AUG has faster fire rate
Seems like the AUG has a pretty clear advantage to me...
On a slightly offtopic note- I use the FAMAS because at the point that it unlocks it is possibly the best gun in the game, and if the AUG is marginally better, it's not worth buying it for the small improvement I'm going to get, since I already have a gun that is fundamentally the same.
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dog
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Post by dog on Nov 17, 2010 1:53:49 GMT -5
AK-47 100/40 = 2.5 (3 bullets) 100/30 = 3.33 (4 bullets) 750 RPM
AUG 100/35 = 2.86 (3 bullets) 100/25 = 4 (4 bullets) 937.5 RPM
The winner is obvious
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 17, 2010 14:08:16 GMT -5
Same number of bullets to kill - headshots blah blah blah (if you're heatmap looks anything like mine you will see this is a non issue. If your heatmap has a lot of headshots... maybe it's an issue) Same recoil figures AUG has faster fire rate Seems like the AUG has a pretty clear advantage to me... On a slightly offtopic note- I use the FAMAS because at the point that it unlocks it is possibly the best gun in the game, and if the AUG is marginally better, it's not worth buying it for the small improvement I'm going to get, since I already have a gun that is fundamentally the same. I will agree that it is just slightly better and that most people get use to the FAMAS. But I personally used the M14 when I unlocked instead of the FAMAS. Now after all my test I use the AUG. At full auto power at medium range though the AUG does have an advantage over the FAMAS. You can replicate this in game in nuke town as I talked about earlier in this thread.
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battleaxerx
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Post by battleaxerx on Nov 17, 2010 15:00:20 GMT -5
Uh oh, look at the chart you posted. The stoner has a .25 ads speed (and the enfield has a .2 ads speed.) Hybrid guns.
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Post by jalebi on Nov 17, 2010 15:09:46 GMT -5
Uh oh, look at the chart you posted. The stoner has a .25 ads speed (and the enfield has a .2 ads speed.) Hybrid guns. Hahaha, I guess I owe you an apology. I could swear it was 0.35 before the latest revision
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Post by eltomo85 on Nov 17, 2010 15:13:31 GMT -5
I find it simple: A 937.5 rpm weapon for core, superior TTK A 40-30 weapon for hardcore OHKO at all ranges.
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 17, 2010 17:59:41 GMT -5
I find it simple: A 937.5 rpm weapon for core, superior TTK A 40-30 weapon for Touch Football OHKO at all ranges. That is what I have concluded as well.
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Post by tsavo213 on Nov 17, 2010 21:37:33 GMT -5
AK-47100/40 = 2.5 (3 bullets) 100/30 = 3.33 (4 bullets) 750 RPM AUG100/35 = 2.86 (3 bullets) 100/25 = 4 (4 bullets) 937.5 RPM The winner is obvious By obvious you mean the aug right???
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