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Post by jalebi on Nov 23, 2010 5:50:57 GMT -5
Den, is the following video substantiated by ingame data or not? My initial belief is that the video is just demonstrating a peculiar coincidence, but I'm not entirely sure.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Nov 23, 2010 5:53:39 GMT -5
Yes, when you shoot a gun at a wall, it often makes the bullet decal icon.
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Post by Ishbane on Nov 23, 2010 6:00:41 GMT -5
The RDS and Reflex never affect any relevant stat on any gun.
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moses
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Post by moses on Nov 23, 2010 6:39:17 GMT -5
The RDS and Reflex never affect any relevant stat on any gun. They have in the past. The CoD4/MW2 AK-47, CoD4 AK-74u, MW2 FAL, possibly the M16 in MW2, and possibly others I don't remember were pretty deeply affected by a RDS/Holo. I'm about to go to bed so I'm not going to test right now, but it looks in that video as if the center speed goes down horribly with the RDS. Then again, that looks plausible to just be a stroke of unlucky recoil, considering how large and varied the recoil can get on the Commando at times.
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mdnl
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Post by mdnl on Nov 23, 2010 7:18:37 GMT -5
It's already been shown in the in game stats, they don't change with Reflex.
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Post by vaari90 on Nov 23, 2010 9:46:34 GMT -5
See, it's funny, we all KNOW that recoil is completely random, meaning Wing of Redemption's two trials are of little statistical value. I just performed the same test on the M16 and the FAMAS and what do you know, the Reflex had more kick! You know why? Because it just so happened that recoil activated in those directions on my trial.
EDIT: I'll make a little video tomorrow showcasing this, if I feel like it.
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Post by jalebi on Nov 23, 2010 10:13:27 GMT -5
Yeah, like I said I assumed the fact that both RDS tests turned out worse than the Reflex tests was just a coincidence, and that appears to be the consensus; I just wanted Den's accurate/scientific backing.
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mdnl
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Post by mdnl on Nov 23, 2010 10:17:32 GMT -5
Here's my counter video to his, he really is a stubborn jackass...
In mine the RDS kicks up one and right once and the Reflex kicks left and right a few times and up once.
Recoil is recoil it's a randomly generated number.
If he likes the Reflex that's fine but his influence is as such that he can change the opinion of 100,000+ people...
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Nov 23, 2010 13:25:20 GMT -5
I couldn't help but laugh all through that. "If you disagree with this video, you're full of shit - straight up." It was especially funny at the end where he claims that if he had used the M16 with the IR scope it would've shot "straight through the fucking roof."
Long time lurk, first post. Hi.
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Post by Ishbane on Nov 23, 2010 13:48:38 GMT -5
I couldn't help but laugh all through that. "If you disagree with this video, you're full of doo-doo - straight up." It was especially funny at the end where he claims that if he had used the M16 with the IR scope it would've shot "straight through the Foxtrotting roof." Long time lurk, first post. Hi. "I don't give a F what the gamecode says!" Priceless. Hi. Edit: I noticed that he's playing on X-Bawks and thought about how different aim assist ranges might cause this, so i double-checked the files again. Aim assist is the same for irons, RDS and reflex.
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Post by joooooeeeee on Nov 23, 2010 14:15:11 GMT -5
Not really sure how anyone can disagree with hard code.... but if that's what he wants to believe so be it I guess.
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Post by Corax on Nov 23, 2010 15:47:30 GMT -5
I am on the PS3 and I tried out what he did and my results were pretty random. But whatever floats this boat. The iron sights on this game are fantastic anyways.
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gus
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Post by gus on Nov 23, 2010 17:18:50 GMT -5
Red dot is 1.25x magnification and reflex is no magnification. Plus, there are usually a few differences on the console. He's right, though, it definitely kicks less, I tried it.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Nov 23, 2010 17:19:43 GMT -5
Just to add my own findings... Same weapon, same attachments (plus I added the completely naked version), from about the same distance (standing in the archway of the white fence - I ran up to the door to take the screenshots). (Clicking on a picture takes you to the full-size version in all its 1920x1080 glory) Funny how all of the patterns are roughly identical - a chest-sized circle with a few stray bullets up, left, and right. [Edit] In light of the above post which wasn't present when I clicked reply, I would like to clarify that I am on the PC.
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Post by esp211 on Nov 23, 2010 17:29:13 GMT -5
Question for Den and others who are familiar with MW2. M16 in that game had a tighter bullet spread with Holo (Reflex) vs. Red Dot and Iron. I swear my KDR went over 2.00 as soon as I made that switch along with stopping power. My question is did the stats show no difference in MW2 between the three?
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mdnl
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Post by mdnl on Nov 23, 2010 17:32:50 GMT -5
Red dot is 1.25x magnification and reflex is no magnification. Plus, there are usually a few differences on the console. He's right, though, it definitely kicks less, I tried it. I've done manual tests on PS3 and the zoom seems the same to me, maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by imrlybord7 on Nov 23, 2010 17:48:38 GMT -5
Question for Den and others who are familiar with MW2. M16 in that game had a tighter bullet spread with Holo (Reflex) vs. Red Dot and Iron. I swear my KDR went over 2.00 as soon as I made that switch along with stopping power. My question is did the stats show no difference in MW2 between the three? Nobody but IW knows those stats. The holo definitely had less recoil.
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Post by rmm5 on Nov 23, 2010 18:01:18 GMT -5
I tried it on the xbox, there is no difference. Erratic patterns will appear every so often, to get a clear picture of the recoil pattern a large number of trials must be done. Wings of Redemption is too proud to admit he is wrong.
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aequinox
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Post by aequinox on Nov 23, 2010 18:06:17 GMT -5
Musings
What if there is a much more complex formula that goes into recoil calculations? Where, for instance, the chance of the recoil flying upwards or to the right is increased in proportion to how long the gun has been firing. Or where there is a higher chance for the weapon to recoil to the right if it's last recoil was to the right. Then, we may be missing an entirely new set of data, which would explain various behaviours unexplained by the in game weapon statistics.
Wherein, perhaps, the red dot sight has a slightly higher change to recoil high values, leading to the various misconceptions.
Yes, it's all good and well to say that the red dot sight and reflex sights recoil identically and and any "irrefutable factual evidence" is mere chance, but what if there is actually a 20% chance on each shot to recoil more for the red dot sight, hidden somewhere in some complex calculation that Treyarch came up with to mimic more realistic (or not obviously robotic, computer generated) recoils or something?
/Musings
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Post by esp211 on Nov 23, 2010 18:08:51 GMT -5
I don't understand why people get so upset over something so trivial. Why does everyone automatically start insulting each other?
I think it is good to debate and discuss these things but why people get so hostile is beyond me. That being said, I agree with others that we need a much larger sample (100+) to really get an accurate measure on whether the RDS/Reflex difference exists.
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Nov 23, 2010 18:12:47 GMT -5
If some more sinister recoil calculation is in play, then it may be necessary when testing the M16 to do a series of single, isolated bursts. Then we'd be able to see more accurately if there is any difference between each burst, and it would negate the whole "weapon heating up" thing that might cause it to recoil more with sustained fire.
Then again this is Treyarch we're talking about here. The idea that they might code in a factor that would add any randomness to the recoil beyond what we already know about it... it's a very slim chance.
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aequinox
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Post by aequinox on Nov 23, 2010 18:15:43 GMT -5
It would explain the M14 never recoiling horizontally.
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Post by esp211 on Nov 23, 2010 18:44:06 GMT -5
Could it also be possible for the stats to vary based on the platform?
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aranshada
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Post by aranshada on Nov 23, 2010 19:03:09 GMT -5
Could it also be possible for the stats to vary based on the platform? That's entirely possible. It's been observed in the past a few times. The one that comes to mind is the damage difference in the MP40 between Xbox360 and PC. There's even a section on one of Den's chart pages that specifically lists known differences between his PC data and Xbox360 tests.
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Post by esp211 on Nov 23, 2010 19:10:05 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance but where are the stats for Den's graphs coming from? PC? So based on Aranshada's post, it is entirely plausible that due to varying stats across the platforms, weapons can behave differently in Xbox as they do in PS3. That could be interesting to dig into.
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Post by vaari90 on Nov 23, 2010 19:15:36 GMT -5
My own test. I can't prove this being the case on Xbox or PS3, I'm certain that the Reflex and RDS have no discernable difference on PC.
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Post by zuluzuluzulu on Nov 23, 2010 19:17:07 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance but where are the stats for Den's graphs coming from? PC? So based on Aranshada's post, it is entirely plausible that due to varying stats across the platforms, weapons can behave differently in Xbox as they do in PS3. That could be interesting to dig into. That is never the case. It is not at all plausible to assume that the stats vary at all. If you think they vary, prove it, don't assume.
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sleep
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Post by sleep on Nov 26, 2010 4:59:03 GMT -5
Red dot is 1.25x magnification and reflex is no magnification. Plus, there are usually a few differences on the console. He's right, though, it definitely kicks less, I tried it. I've done manual tests on PS3 and the zoom seems the same to me, maybe I'm wrong. yep, i just tested in a private match on xbox live with both the m14 and FAL. m14, m14 rds, m14 reflex, FAL, FAL rds, and FAL reflex all have the exact same zoom fov. edit: same zoom for commando, commando rds and commando reflex. and no noticable/measurable difference in recoil and shot distribution. as i expected, this appears to be nonsense.
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Post by caboose on Nov 26, 2010 12:23:02 GMT -5
Wouldn't make sense that the reflex optical lense sight had no zoom...
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