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Post by matt337 on Feb 5, 2011 16:45:43 GMT -5
Instead of individual tweaks, nerfs, and buffs, I just want to see what y'all think about balance bet. classes of weapons.
Back on cod4, mp5 usually beat Ak-47 in inside a room, mp5 lost to AK in mid range fights, And Ak could barely get a single hit marker across the map against a sniper.
In MW2, an ACR could compete with a sniper anywhere but one end of Derail to the other.
In BO, a Famas beats an AK74u inside a room. It'll often beat it while hip-firing! Adding rapid fire to AK74u will only beat Famas in TKK in close quarters by .009 seconds.
I think the most important change should be to more sharply articulate the differences in classes of weapons at different ranges.
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Post by themccannman on Feb 5, 2011 16:58:56 GMT -5
we all know how broken everything is...
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Post by Contrary on Feb 5, 2011 18:03:51 GMT -5
Yes, in MW2 and ACR could fight a Sniper Rifle at long range, but a Vector could full auto at LMG range and a Sniper could rail gun to have a fighting chance at close range. I think this is just as good as, if not superior to CoD4's system. CoD 4 had fairly well defined and balanced niches (except for shotguns; those suck) but in MW2 almost every gun could do something at every range.
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 6, 2011 23:22:46 GMT -5
^ which is stupid
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Post by Contrary on Feb 6, 2011 23:39:30 GMT -5
I'd rather be able to fight back then simply take it up the bum everytime an LMG glances down a hallway at my SMG or an AR guy wanders up to me while I have a sniper. The classes still out class the others in their field, but it's not like you don't have a chance if you are at a class disadvantage.
Why is it stupid?
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 6, 2011 23:45:51 GMT -5
because if u r using a sniper u should lose to everything at close range its retarded when a sniper can ads and one shot me in CQC when i have a SMG by ur logic i should be able to shoot u across the map on derail with an AA12 which is stupid
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Post by Contrary on Feb 6, 2011 23:52:59 GMT -5
Uh yeah you should. You shouldn't kill very quickly but yeah.Why not? If I have a shotgun and the other guy has a sniper and we're at long range and are at equal skill levels I should die every time. But if he's super terrible awful why shouldn't I have the chance to win?
If you get killed by a sniper at close range while you have an SMG you deserve to die because you got outplayed.
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 7, 2011 0:07:38 GMT -5
not when there TTK is 0 and mine is like .171 get educated
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Post by Contrary on Feb 7, 2011 0:21:43 GMT -5
Yes if it's a noscope- but that has a super low chance unless its well inside knife range. Please educate me as to how one can fire a sniper rifle with perfect accuracy from the hip. Come on. you can fit your hipfire completely in a guy for a pretty long range. 0.171 is shorter than the time it takes Snipers to ADS, even with SoH. The sniper has to be aiming right at you and he has to fire as soon as he's scoped in. If he misses; he loses. If he gets hit (which you'll probably do first) and viewkicked; he loses. If you strafe side to side; he loses (Sniper ADS slows your aiming way too much). If he hits you in a limb; he loses. If your hand happens to stray in front of your chest; he loses. If he can manage all this while all you have to do is hold down fire and list slightly to the side, you should die.
Your reasoning is what makes ARs so OP.
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 7, 2011 0:43:28 GMT -5
no i agree ARs r overpowered but the snipers OHK box is so freakin huge if u cannot hit them u deserve to be shot soviet style. Assume we both have SOH we both aim at the same time in CQC i land the first shot then he shoots=I'm dead because view kick is not so extreme to throw off a snipers aim to where he misses my giant a$$ OHK area. This is modified even more by Stopping Power. Any TTK of 0 is extremely strong it gives no time to react. This is the issue he can react to me shooting after i hit him. After he hits me im dead. Not only that but u have this huge advantage at ALL ranges. Shotguns and snipers r two ends of the spectrum, they r the extreme. They r ment for specialization and to only work within there Special range. This is what makes MW2 broken ARS and Snipers r better in almost every situation than SMGS or LMGS. if ur in CQC with a sniper u should always loose If ur at extreme long ranges like Derail from one end to the other u should always win. Thats the specialization of it.
Call of duty needs to be retooled tho by nerfing ARs and beefing Shotguns. Snipers in BOPS r perfect but they seem underpowered because of how good ARs r same goes for SMGs. ARs r jus simply too strong as a whole
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Post by Contrary on Feb 7, 2011 1:03:49 GMT -5
You just kind of ignored what I said about hipfiring. I guess that means you can't think of a rebuttal. any range where snipers wont be killed by viewkick is a range where SMGs don't even have to ADS. And at long range snipers have to hold their breath and viewkick seriously screws them up. All SMG guys have to do is pewpew pew you're done. I don't think you should just simply win because of the way you've set up your class. That' stupid; that doesn't take any skill at all.
What are you talking about man in MW2 both SMGs and LMGs were completely boss. Snipers weren't even that great at close/mid range. you forgot that when you scope in your crosshairs can be anywhere inside the sway pattern. That's pretty bad. SMGs also had the advantage of speed. You COULD run Marathon and Lightweight on a Sniper for the same speed- but then you lose the quick killing power you get from SoH.
Snipers in BO ARE underpowered, even when compared to the LMGs and SMGs. It's child's play to counter snipe with an SMG. At the very least you'll wreck his aim- even if he has hardened pro. If they made them like CoD4 snipers that'd be fine.
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 7, 2011 1:43:52 GMT -5
ummm idk what MW2 u r playin but i wish i had that 1 because the 1 i got i would have a better chance hitting enemies with rocks than using a SMG(except the UMP). Seriously all secondaries are amazing CQC weapons y gimp urself with a CQC primary as well. Hell u dont even have to have them to get max mobility cause for some reason the OP sniper has the same movement. Then we have SOH Pro also hurting SMGs cause now ARs can ADS almost as fast. The only thing SMGs have is a high RPM which is off set by their recoil. Then theres commando... nuf said
Anything u can do with a LMG u can do better with an AR. The only thing LMGs got going for them is no damage drop off and that advantage is off set by the recoil. Long magazines mean nothing when u have SOH and TTK is so small theres plenty of time to reload between fights. With almost no recoil MW2 ARs wrecked LMGs, and im not even mentioning the movement and ADS time.
AS for the hip firing thing it is negligable because i still have to land more shots with a SMG than a sniper does. Plus hip fire is random ur leaving all ur killing power to chance. Not only that but this argueement is borderline pointless to begin with because MW2 maps r set up to where most engagements will take place outside the SMGs range also making the snipers stronger. if an SMG guy gets in his effective range on a sniper the sniper should loose but it doesnt happen that way. thats the whole f'n point of the secondary on a sniper too bad the snipers r too good at CQC for that secondary to be valid.
And im positive u have no idea what ur talking about because MW2 snipers have SMG movement lol
In BO every1 says that every class is underpowered except for ARs and the Ak-74u this leads me to believe that ARs r jus overpowered because overpowered and underpowered r relative terms based on majority vs minority.
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Post by mw0swedeking on Feb 7, 2011 1:47:26 GMT -5
Snipers had SMG speed...
But I'm definitely not saying that snipers were OP in MW2. M16 does it better at the majority of ranges, and unless you want to also argue that the M16 is superior to all the other ARs, then Snipers aren't better than ARs.
And I'm a massive SMG user, and while you do tend to be mildly disadvantaged at ranges, the hipfire, ADS mobility and general mobility give you big strategic advantages that make up for it. ADS strafe walking is huge for SMGs (SMGs don't automatically win CQB vs other gun, but if you ADS strafe you put yourself in a position of advantage which will win you fights a lot of the time), and the mobility helps you get positioning advantages over all the other guns.
And the LMGs are fantastic defensive weapons. L86 was sweet, although I definitely missed my mobility.
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Post by kobefan012345 on Feb 7, 2011 1:47:45 GMT -5
Looks like you guys need to play battlefield.
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i8
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Post by i8 on Feb 7, 2011 1:58:24 GMT -5
Im not sayin SMG should be insta win in CQC over an AR or LMG it should be about 75% win rate there. but against a sniper umm ya should be 100% win rate. Shotguns 50-50(should be primary MW2 did get there damage and range perfect except GayA12) and machine pistols can F@#k off.
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tacit
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Post by tacit on Feb 7, 2011 9:48:36 GMT -5
These are always interesting topics, because they're clouded by our own experiences of the weapons - both using them, and being shot by them. Plus there's always a lot to be said for the inherent issue of ping time.
In COD4, the drawback of any weapon was either recoil [and accuracy], rate of fire or damage. You pay your money and you takes your choice. The ARs were a little tricky to handle at very short ranges, and the SMGs were harder to handle at longer ranges - unless the enemy didn't know you were there, but that's a different story. The LMGs had more ammunition, no damage drop-off substituted for slower movement. The shotguns? I had novel fun with them, but outside of hiding in the grass with a UAV jammer and shooting them in the back, it was basically useless.
The sniper rifles operate on the same premise again - lower recoil of the M21 was countered by the multipliers being lower for shots below the neck. There was also a benefit attached to the later unlocks, since you could one-shot a non-juggernaut with a UAV jammer and then run off giggling about it.
The maps are the most important part of weapon balance, from my point of view. The COD4 maps always kind of felt like rollerskating rinks instead of being linear, objective-based maps. That aside, the maps almost always had something for everyone, despite maybe being a little too recoil heavy and the maps a little too small.
MW2, I think, changed the balance a bit. The SCAR-H is like the G3 with a fully automatic switch. It's both highly accurate and deals considerable damage at most ranges. I've tested its accuracy on Quarry at long range, and you can practically hit exactly the same spot over and over again if you're using rapid single fire shots.
The M4A1 is a wasted weapon, because the ACR, I think, outclasses it in every way. The ACR recoil is lower, and the damage is the same over approximately the same range. The FAMAS and M16A4 are both great medium to long-range weapons. The assault class, in itself, isn't quite as balanced relative to COD4 - the TAR-21 doesn't have a damage advantage over the SCAR-H, despite being less accurate. The F2000 is both poor of accuracy and damage.
The SMGs are pretty average - the UMP45 is good, despite the recoil in full auto, but the Vector is an embarrassment; the TMP is more accurate and does five extra points of damage at close range. I like the P90 less in MW2 than COD4 [feels more jumpy now] but the Mini-Uzi got a recoil downgrade and I love it like an only child.
The LMGs again have the same idea - ammo and firepower at all ranges for compromised speed. But for some reason, no-one fears the machine gun like they do in reality - there needs to be some sort of suppression function or fear at having large quantities of lead being fired in your vicinity. Anyways, the snipers get a lot of favours in this game, and it's fun to blast them with Danger Close and an AT4-HS just to hear them whine about how you're a noob before ragequitting. I don't use the Riot Shield so I couldn't possibly comment on that.
Now, on to the most disturbing aspect of weapon balance - Black Ops.
Find me a place on any map where you can actually fire a machine gun from a long enough distance away to get the benefit of that limitless range the MGs have, and I'll buy you a beer. But seriously, taking out Stopping Power was one thing, but making the HK-21 a three-hit kill was the definition of retarded. Why would anyone bother using a machine gun instead of a Galil? They're both three-shot kills [the Galil at most ranges], except with an LMG you run like you're carrying a parachute and a reserve chute with your machine gun. In my opinion, LMGs are there for novelty's sake - their functional inclusion in the game is now obsolete. The snipers are the same. I wasn't a big fan of being quick-scoped, no-scoped and dragscoped, but to make a series of maps that are too small for a sniper to sit back and do their thing, as well as adding that weird shuffle at the start of every scope-in that adds about a second to your aiming, it's a double-kick-in-the-balls to snipers everywhere in this game. They've basically cut out the effectiveness of two entire classes.
I don't enjoy playing Black Ops - the mixture of having enemies spawning behind you at random, and flushng LMG and sniper classes down the toilet isn't my idea of an enjoyable time with a video game.
And will somebody kill the Nuketown map? It's like playing a first-person shooter in a Disney-Pixar movie; stupid, and pointless.
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niteshadex
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Post by niteshadex on Feb 7, 2011 11:40:12 GMT -5
Looks like you guys need to play battlefield. Was thinkin that myself... CoD's tiny maps throw most interclass balance out the window. Nothing much you can do about it other than balancing recoil and ADS times to match desired combat distance.
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inu
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Post by inu on Feb 28, 2011 1:19:41 GMT -5
Except about the Vector. And tbh Nuketown > Firing Range. At least Nuketown doesn't take itself serious =p For srsly though, the LMGs got smashed in BO; for haphazard lead-slinging duty, I find an ExMags Galil to be the best option. AR handling with 50 round mag and manageable recoil is worlds better than the imposters in the "actual" LMG category in this game; basically just neutered ARs. I usually try to defend BO cuz I'm a fanboy, but I really don't know what they were thinking here. To say nothing of the map design. Besides Array, there's not a single map in this game with a broad open area with multiple sightlines to make sniping (or LMG'ing) useful (and even Array has a giant building in the center, which I always feel is sort of out of place) Well, okay, there's also Jungle and Crisis, but each of those only has one really good spot. BO is just smaller. I remember when I used to feel like akimbo SMGs were a joke, whereas now in BO I'm burning up the field with twin Skorps. I'm constantly in spitting distance of my foes in Black Ops. I would argue snipers are still viable... as long as you use an ACOG or plan to go quickscoping. But LMGs were really just murdered outright. Poor bastards... they were always so misunderstood. Maybe it's karma for the RPD back in the CoD4 days.
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Post by psijaka on Feb 28, 2011 12:05:52 GMT -5
I agree that snipers are at a big disadvantage in BO, to such an extent that it is almost a pleasure to die by that one clean shot out of nowhere, it happens so infrequently. I have respect for those that do well sniping.
But I most definately do not agree about the LMGs being murdered.
The HK21 is quite a beast, with managable recoil and surprisingly good hip fire accuracy. I am currently trying it out with Lightweight (!) + Steady Aim and am doing surprisingly well. Extended mags absolutely essential though, but with it you get 60 rounds per mag with 180 spare rounds.
The RPK is a joke becouse of it's uncontrollable recoil. Fine for shooting birds out of the sky. Only the Uzi keeps it off the bottom of the heap in this respect. Why would people use this gun?
The M60 is a MONSTER. Add grip and the recoil is manageable, with 27% of second shots taking place when the gun has fully recovered from the recoil of the first shot (this is a high figure). The low ROF helps with the recoil, and is compensated for by it's high damage at close range (50), making it a 2HK. And it has a massive belt of 100 rounds, so Extended Mags not required.
Hardened turns the M60 and the HK21 into a campers worst nightmare, especially if you use Hacker as then their claymores give away their position. Nothing can save them (See the "Pig" thread for more M60 love).
The Stoner's insane fire rate means that it is a bit of a wild thing to tame. Not my personal favourite because of the recoil but it has assault rifle ADS in time; add Lightweight and you have a super powerful assault rifle with poor hip fire accuracy. Unfortunately only has AR bullet penetration, but you can't have everything.
LMGs certainly have not been murdered, they are just misunderstood. My K/D has been climbing steadily since I "discovered" M60 + grip a month ago.
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Post by psijaka on Feb 28, 2011 12:22:33 GMT -5
Back to the OP
In an ideal world, the classes would be balanced by range as follows:
Shotguns - Close = Dominant, Medium = Poor: Long = Hopeless
SMGs - Close = Good, Medium = Fair, Long = Poor
Assault - Close = Fair, Medium = Good, Long = Fair
Snipers - Close = Poor, Medium = Fair, Long = Good, Extreme = Dominant
LMGs cannot be categorised in quite the same way, as they have unique abilities and handicaps.
The main problems arise where this is not the case.
For example, Assault rifles like the Famas and Aug have a shorter time to kill than the SMGs, with the exception of the MP5/AK74 rapid fire. The only penalty is a 5% reduction in movement speed and a 50ms reduction in ADS in time. In other words, why choose an SMG, especailly a 30-20 damage one, when an Assault Rifle dominate it a close range?
At the other extreme, take Snipers. Why bother when you are at such a disadvantage at anything other than extreme long range. I quite happily longshot snipers on the mast in Array with a silenced AK47 with iron sights; should I be able to do this so easily? I think not.
The situation is such that I really feel that half of the guns in BO are redundant for serious play (by that I mean playing for the team win, rather than just messing around having a bit of fun). These include:
MP5 AK74 Skorpion (maybe) Any full auto AR (6) HK21 M60 Stoner (maybe)
So that is a choice of 12 out of 31 primaries. I do occasionally try out guns like the M14, G11, Dual wield MAC11, Olympia, or even a Sniper if I am feeling particularly masochistic, but not for serious use, IMO
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Feb 28, 2011 13:44:54 GMT -5
LMGs cannot be categorised in quite the same way, as they have unique abilities and handicaps. The main problems arise where this is not the case. For example, Assault rifles like the Famas and Aug have a shorter time to kill than the SMGs, with the exception of the MP5/AK74 rapid fire. The only penalty is a 5% reduction in movement speed and a 50ms reduction in ADS in time. In other words, why choose an SMG, especailly a 30-20 damage one, when an Assault Rifle dominate it a close range? At the other extreme, take Snipers. Why bother when you are at such a disadvantage at anything other than extreme long range. I quite happily longshot snipers on the mast in Array with a silenced AK47 with iron sights; should I be able to do this so easily? I think not. The situation is such that I really feel that half of the guns in BO are redundant for serious play (by that I mean playing for the team win, rather than just messing around having a bit of fun). These include: MP5 AK74 Skorpion (maybe) Any full auto AR (6) HK21 M60 Stoner (maybe) So that is a choice of 12 out of 31 primaries. I do occasionally try out guns like the M14, G11, Dual wield MAC11, Olympia, or even a Sniper if I am feeling particularly masochistic, but not for serious use, IMO I would change that list to: AK74u Any Full auto AR M60 HK recoil is too high. Much worse long range than any AR. No large mag, no dual mags, low total ammo, poor attachments, high recoil, and a 3HK vs 4HK long range.. ? Heck, even the irons are poor on the Stoner and HK21. Aside from the M60, they suck. In other words, why choose an SMG, especailly a 30-20 damage one, when an Assault Rifle dominate it a close range? Well, the Vector wasnt a bad gun in MW2 and was 30-20... but those were the days when the light ARs were also 30-20...
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Post by rutger on Feb 28, 2011 14:21:43 GMT -5
I can play good too with the HK21, but if you look at it good what does it has to offer/do better than the assault rifles? - They are both a 3 hit kill at the normal fighting ranges. It takes almost 2 ingame sqaures (50 meters) before an LMG has any benefit from the no dmg drop off. These situations are rare. - It's rate of fire is the same or slower than the ARs. - The ADS time is slower. - We all know that medium = high penetration, so no benefit. - LMGs make you walk alot slower. - The accuracy aint bad, but its not as good as the ARs in my opinion. I'd rather have it a bit more upwards and not so much sideways and unpredictable. - The only real nice thing about the HK21 is its slightly better hip fire accuracy. - Hardly any usefull attachments - Reloads take alot longer. - Besides the M60 all LMGs just have too small magazines. You are almost forced to use extended mags and then its still nothing to write home about. Whats 60 bullets on a LMG when you can use the Galil with 50. BIG fail from treyarch here when you add in the slow reloads. And i hardly ever need that many bullets with an AR. I can kill a group of ppl with 30 bullets easily and then theres always time for a reload.
Imo the Galil extended mags beats the HK21 hands down. The Stoner 63 is just a worse version of the Famas. The recoil of the RPK make it so bad that it is not even worth it. Besides that it also get the same flaws the HK21 got. The only real LMG is the M60 because it has a 100 bullet belt, high dmg.and is fairly accurate too. Just what i expect from an LMG.
I just guess you play more cautious with the HK21 because it is slower and that improved your game performance, but i really doubt its the gun itself.
The automatic assault rifles pretty much dominate this entire game. But some guns do have their speciality and uses. My list atm would be: SMGs (still weak compared to ARs): AK74u (use MP5k until you unlock this), best close range gun. Not OP unlike the Famas that does good at all ranges Spectre, performs close to ak74u and better at ranges >25m Kiparis is special with its penetration and might have its uses on Nuketown/Firing range or other maps where you can make good use of the penetration and speed.
Assault Rifles: Pretty much all automatics are good and the Famas/Aug are OP imo. I do like the M16 en G11 for long range fighting and they do have their uses ingame. Plus you can combine them with a pistol for close range if you like.
LMGs: M60, the pig just does its job well.
Snipers: Underpowered, but the WA2000 Acog is still fun with good recoil.
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Post by H8ters2 on Feb 28, 2011 14:46:25 GMT -5
vector was 25-20.
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Post by diabolo84 on Feb 28, 2011 15:02:19 GMT -5
Vector was the best SMG in MW2 (if you don't take clipsize/ammo into account). Recoil was most managable and fire rate made up for damage.
This bro proposes that MW2 is the best balanced cod title (ignoring cod3, because well... just because it's cod3). Every single gun had a place in that game, except for post patch models and the f2000 arguably.
All guns were good in their niche, and in a strictly competitive environment, there was plenty of usable guns. (tar, scar, AK47, famas, ump, p90, vector,). In fact the only real guns which were blatantly underpowered were the LMGs, and even then only a small buff was needed.
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Post by psijaka on Feb 28, 2011 15:13:36 GMT -5
- We all know that medium = high penetration, so no benefit. I didn't know this. Where did you get this info from? I certainly seem to be slaughtering a lot of people through walls with M60/Hardened.
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Post by n1gh7 on Feb 28, 2011 15:22:51 GMT -5
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inu
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Post by inu on Feb 28, 2011 15:44:37 GMT -5
This bro proposes that MW2 is the best balanced cod title (ignoring cod3, because well... just because it's cod3). Every single gun had a place in that game, except for post patch models and the f2000 arguably. Vector being 25-20 meant slightly worse max damage range and reduced penetration, but it was still basically a 30-20 SMG with 1000(!) RPM, clear open iron sights, fast reloads, and low recoil; it handled like a dream. I agree that MW2 was very well balanced; I still have my problems with akimbo glocks, akimbo rangers, and killstreak stacking, but its nothing compared to the mess of BO. The FAMAUG are ridiculously strong and able to dominate in any situation, the SMG balance is whacked, and RIP snipers and LMGs. As for the M60 kicking ass through walls, I'd chalk it up to the 50 damage. It has the same bullet penetration as an AR, but 50 damage per bullet means more damage to make it through the wall, if that makes sense. I'd really encourage you to try out an ExMags Galil in place of an LMG however, just to see what we're talking about. LMGs aren't necessarily underpowered -- really, nothing is. It's just all about context; the MAC-11 is a beast, but why use it when there's the Spectre with the same handling characteristics and a longer magazine? The HK21 is a powerful gun, but why use it when an ExMags Galil has a larger magazine, better handling, and only slightly worse damage? No gun on its own is weak, its only when it is lined up against other guns that they lose effectiveness.
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Post by mw0swedeking on Feb 28, 2011 16:11:48 GMT -5
I just figured I'd throw this out there... it used to be how I thought the game actually worked, too SMGs have aim assist out to mid range. ARs have aim assist outside of 10 feet or so and out to mid-long range. LMGs have aim assist outside of 15 feet or so out to long range Snipers have aim assist from midrange to infinity The distances I wrote are obviously just random numbers to give the general idea. Also this clearly would not work for PC (no aim assist, derp). But I think it's an interesting idea to say the least. What do you guys think?
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Post by ArrrhImAPirate on Feb 28, 2011 17:42:30 GMT -5
I think the problem with the balance is just a matter of balance of the SMGs and the ARs. Maybe a little bit of the shotties.
The SMGs should have the same damage as they do now. But as a general group, their rate of fire should be increased all together, and their centerspeed SLIGHTLY increased or recoil slightly decreased, but enough that even with the rate of fire increase, you couldn't full auto with any SMG at long range consistently. Meant for close-mid range battles, dominating CQC.
ARs should have slower rate of fires. This reduces the TTK up close, but makes ARs more controllable at mid-range and long range. ARs should be the jack-of-all-trades, not dominant in any range.
Shotguns should have a damage increase and a slightly longer reach than it has now. This will make the shotties dominant in CQCs. It should definitely not have the reach of the Spas in MW2 though.
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Post by psijaka on Mar 1, 2011 2:49:24 GMT -5
Thanks. Very interesting, and slightly disturbing. Why would Treyarch make Medium=Large? Doesn't make sense. Almost calls for a new thread.
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