saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 16, 2011 17:36:40 GMT -5
Just to get this out of that other topic.
The Difference between the SCAR's ROF and the TAR's is very small.
Idk what the TTK is for both of them, if someone could bring that up it would help, thanks.
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Post by crocs on Dec 16, 2011 19:30:38 GMT -5
630 vs 750 RPM
As a useful measuring stick, 630 RPM is slower than any fully auto AR in MW3. The TAR reloads and drops faster while we're at it.
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Post by joe8beast on Dec 16, 2011 19:40:16 GMT -5
TAR also has more kick and less friendly iron sights (more obstructive)
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Post by Ishbane on Dec 16, 2011 19:57:23 GMT -5
TAR boasts bigger mag.
TAR's irons make aqcuiring targets at short-/midrange easier (IMO).
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 16, 2011 20:04:30 GMT -5
I think the best point I can make for the TAR's ROF not being a great advantage would be the TTK's of both guns, and the shortest perceivable time for a human.
But I don't know either of these.
All I know is when I use a TAR the TTK difference compared to the SCAR's is very small. Is almost insignificant.
The SCAR's accuracy advantage is far more useful.
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laxman15
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Post by laxman15 on Dec 16, 2011 21:22:48 GMT -5
No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 16, 2011 21:53:06 GMT -5
No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg. Don't forget bad recoil.
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Post by crocs on Dec 16, 2011 22:13:38 GMT -5
I just don't understand when the SCAR's accuracy would ever really help. At short and medium range, assuming you're aiming center mass, the TAR will kill someone long before its recoil takes you off target. At long range, (1) you should be burst firing, and (2) whoever gets the first hit is going to win anyway.
Frankly, I think basically every gun in COD has too little recoil. Heck, I did just fine with the Uzi in Black Ops.
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Post by joe8beast on Dec 16, 2011 22:27:01 GMT -5
i quit MW2 because the SCAR was too easy to use, and too powerful imo, i ran it almost every class, spare the ones i had the UMP one, and i could switch between the 2, it didnt matter, they were both extremely accurate and strong when silenced, it left me bored wishing for more gun options, i tried getting into the TAR but it lacked the accuracy to snipe people across the map due to its recoil compared to the scar, and with my playstyle, was a must
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slowriot
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Post by slowriot on Dec 16, 2011 23:23:25 GMT -5
i loved the tar's irons, and the RDS was cleeeeeen. the bigger clip and faster drop time and burst friendly high ROF won me over the scar. i love variation in irons though, big fan of BO uzi, MW3 g36, m14, mk46, m60.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 17, 2011 1:51:24 GMT -5
Because the TAR and SCAR both kill in two hits, their TTKs are very easy to calculate: it's just their fire rates.
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moses
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Post by moses on Dec 17, 2011 2:41:46 GMT -5
The TAR-21 is usually considered top automatic AR against the ACR, not the SCAR.
TAR-21: High RoF, 40-30 damage, amazing irons in exchange for a MARS sight (debatably worse, but no one uses RDS with the TAR-21 anyway in terms of efficiency) and medium recoil. The TAR-21 is hands down the best AR and the second best primary up close (unless you use LOL Akimbo) until mid-range, and because of its excessively high 40-30 damage, its long-range capabilities are very capable when burst fired, if not better than most guns in the game. There is no weakness to this gun other than a slightly weak game at the distance when other lower recoil guns can go full auto.
SCAR-H: 40-30 damage, possibly the best irons, and low recoil in exchange for 20 ammo magazine and low RoF. This gun is kind of a noob trap: extremely easy to use and effective, but its flaws bring it so far down I don't even consider it one of the top guns in the game. The 20 ammo magazine means you will on average kill 2 or 3 at best before needing to reload, something quite detrimental when combined with its slow reload time. To rectify this, you need Extended Mags, which means you either give up Perk 1 for Bling (and still lose an attachment compared to others with Bling) or give up the Silencer, FMJ, or HBS. Now, the low RoF actually hurts more than just a lower TTK: assuming you don't kill in the initial bullets (and none of us have even close to 100% accuracy, most not even over 20%), a higher RoF allows for a stronger TTK. A higher RoF makes hip firing stronger than a slower RoF, makes misses less deadly in a fire fight, and makes attacking multiple enemies easier. The SCAR's low RoF makes its up close game shoddier than it could be, and makes finishing an opponent who screws with your view kick much harder. It should also be noted about this gun that even though its recoil is lower than the TAR-21's and most guns in the game, you STILL want to burst fire it beyond a bit past mid-range.
ACR: High RoF, amazing irons, and virtually no recoil in exchange for 30-20 damage. The only disadvantage with this gun is its 30-20 damage, and this really only hurts until mid-range. After then, this gun consistently wins fire fights through sheer accuracy landing more hits than the opponent, meaning that 1 more bullet required for the kill gets less and less importance since you're hitting more than 1 more bullet extra from the laser-like recoil.
The main point on why the SCAR loses is even if the SCAR had a 30 ammo magazine, it would STILL be considered inferior to the TAR-21 if just for the RoF. It becomes brutally apparent when no automatic can touch you in a fair fight until mid-range with the TAR-21 and still take anything out due to its high power, vs. being mediocre compared to other guns except for a range just beyond mid-range where its accuracy is JUST enough to meld its damage and full auto to win.
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Post by combad on Dec 17, 2011 4:44:25 GMT -5
No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg. I'd say that the HBAR with the right class setup was almost as good but not equal to the assault rifles. With grip on it I think your recoil would be somewhere between the TAR and the SCAR. SOH pro is a MUST. Steady aim too for obvious reasons. The problem with the gun is you have already used up your perks and your attachment to produce something that you get off the bat from an assault rifle and still suffer from LMG downsides. Still, the AUG HBAR with grip and SOH by itself is a pretty good gun.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 17, 2011 8:12:25 GMT -5
Because the TAR and SCAR both kill in two hits, their TTKs are very easy to calculate: it's just their fire rates. But what is it in ms? Everyones main argument is the tars rof is what makes it better. But I'm saying its a very small difference.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 17, 2011 11:48:45 GMT -5
No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg. Does it have a longer sprint->fire delay in MW2? LMGs do NOT in MW3.
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moses
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Post by moses on Dec 17, 2011 12:03:25 GMT -5
Because the TAR and SCAR both kill in two hits, their TTKs are very easy to calculate: it's just their fire rates. But what is it in ms? Everyones main argument is the tars rof is what makes it better. But I'm saying its a very small difference. SCAR with SP (2 bullets, 3 bullets): .095, .19 SCAR without SP (3 bullets, 4 bullets) .19, .285 TAR-21 with SP (2 bullets, 3 bullets): .08, .16 TAR-21 without SP (3 bullets, 4 bullets) .16, .24 TTK is based on assuming the first bullet hits, which counts as 0 since it's instant, then added fire time until death. In this case, the TTK isn't too different, but that's assuming perfect accuracy: any misses and the TAR-21 pulls ahead much farther. The RoF difference is massive when dealing with utility, as I mentioned in my above post.
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Post by Ishbane on Dec 17, 2011 12:23:59 GMT -5
I thought we all agreed that ttk isn't worth two shits?
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Post by bedlam36 on Dec 17, 2011 13:08:36 GMT -5
difference between 630 and 750 is not small.
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moses
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Post by moses on Dec 17, 2011 13:28:12 GMT -5
I thought we all agreed that ttk isn't worth two doo-doos? Yeah, in MW3. In games with SP, TTK does matter a lot.
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tacit
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Post by tacit on Dec 18, 2011 8:46:03 GMT -5
It's the effectiveness of the weapon at range that sets these two weapons apart.
The TAR-21 is likely to miss almost half of its second shots when fired fully automatic at a range of around 1700 inches. That means that a two-shot kill weapon at range has a second-shot accuracy [in my testing I did] of between 50 and 57%, whilst the SCAR-H has a second-shot accuracy of between 71 and 80% at this same range.
In short, we're going to reiterate the same tired old message:
The TAR-21 is dominate at shorter ranges
They are about even between about 1200 - 1500 inches
The SCAR-H clearly outshines the TAR at mid/long range.
Fortunately for SCAR-H enthusiasts, the map design in MW2 was done in such a way as to render the SCAR-H usable in its most effective format in a variety of places on many maps. Therefore, unless you're running around CQC corners in Karachi or Sub Base. the SCAR-H is still a formidable weapon and should not be considered in any way inferior to the TAR-21.
Of course, these assertions are made assuming that the connection response is equal, that you're both stationary and not subject to the ADS delay whilst moving. These factors can alter the outcome of your firefight.
Thankyou.
Oh, BTW - the brute TTK based on firetime and perfect accuracy is for the SCAR-H about 0.095 seconds, and the TAR-21 is about 0.08 seconds.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 18, 2011 12:46:40 GMT -5
It's the effectiveness of the weapon at range that sets these two weapons apart. The TAR-21 is likely to miss almost half of its second shots when fired fully automatic at a range of around 1700 inches. That means that a two-shot kill weapon at range has a second-shot accuracy [in my testing I did] of between 50 and 57%, whilst the SCAR-H has a second-shot accuracy of between 71 and 80% at this same range. In short, we're going to reiterate the same tired old message: The TAR-21 is dominate at shorter ranges They are about even between about 1200 - 1500 inches The SCAR-H clearly outshines the TAR at mid/long range. Fortunately for SCAR-H enthusiasts, the map design in MW2 was done in such a way as to render the SCAR-H usable in its most effective format in a variety of places on many maps. Therefore, unless you're running around CQC corners in Karachi or Sub Base. the SCAR-H is still a formidable weapon and should not be considered in any way inferior to the TAR-21. Of course, these assertions are made assuming that the connection response is equal, that you're both stationary and not subject to the ADS delay whilst moving. These factors can alter the outcome of your firefight. Thankyou. Oh, BTW - the brute TTK based on firetime and perfect accuracy is for the SCAR-H about 0.095 seconds, and the TAR-21 is about 0.08 seconds. Ok, and now all we need is the time in ms that a human can react to. If it's grater than the scars 0.095 then the rof difference does not matter. much if at all. Seeing as you will hardly notice the difference. And I also forgot to say, to anyone saying you can handle the tars recoil, well, in close quarters combat where the tar has it's so called advantage. You don't have time to adjust your aim, you are either on target and live or you are off and die. This is assuming a head to head encounter. If it's not head to head then you have time to aim, in that case you are better off with the more accurate scar.
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tacit
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Post by tacit on Dec 18, 2011 16:19:47 GMT -5
Online human reaction time tests suggest that it's around 215ms.
Personally, mine's around 285ms and I tend to come out on top more times than not.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 19, 2011 4:31:29 GMT -5
Ok, and now all we need is the time in ms that a human can react to. If it's grater than the scars 0.095 then the rof difference does not matter. much if at all. Incorrect. The TTKs posted assume perfect accuracy. If you have perfect accuracy, fine, go ahead and use those numbers practically. However, as others have said, the TAR's TTK advantage only increases as accuracy decreases. This means that in CQC where you are probably hip firing, every missed shot makes the TAR superior.
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Post by randomguy987 on Dec 19, 2011 6:28:38 GMT -5
Online human reaction time tests suggest that it's around 215ms. Personally, mine's around 285ms and I tend to come out on top more times than not. I'm guessing you're citing this experiment: www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.phpMaybe I'm missing something, but those reaction times really put into perspective the fact that the outcome of gunfights has very little to do with the gun's TTK; rather it's all about who sees whom first. (Or in MW3, whom the lag gods favor.)
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tacit
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Post by tacit on Dec 19, 2011 6:49:28 GMT -5
There's various sources that claim it's around about the 200ms mark, but that's one, yes.
To be fair, it's not just about reaction time - it's about your hand-eye co-ordination, and your sensitivity setup. If you can snap-aim to an enemy, reaction time doesn't mean quite so much as this ability.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Dec 19, 2011 7:08:47 GMT -5
The problem with SCAR is you are statistically many times outgunned if you play actively. In mid-long range you lose to snipers, UMP45, FAMAS, FAL, RPD, etc, In close-mid to shotguns, Raffica, dual G18s, MP5K w/ steady aim, L86 LSW, TAR21, etc etc.. SCAR seems to be a camper weapon. If you kill with SCAR you ‘d kill with a handgun as well. Only a camper might be fine with that weaknesses: 1) small mag 2) fail to reload in the middle of a gun fight 3) slow ROF ---- as most of the time he shoots in the back and the most wanted features are low recoil and high damage, delivered by SCAR. You cannot run&gun with SCAR (ROF), you cannot controll area with SCAR (clip size), so you basically have to camp. No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg. Hybrid? 1) [LMGs] AUG has lower penetration than RPD. Many kills thru walls done with RPD won’t happen with AUG. For controlling areas it is most important not to reload frequently, RPD + Grip + OMA PRO is the best solution, with SP PRO might be used very effectively as AA class to destroy UAVs/CUAVs as well. 2) {AR] Assault rifles can have grenade launchers… and resuply with Scavenger. That devastating kind of fire-power not available with AUG.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 19, 2011 8:40:50 GMT -5
The problem with SCAR is you are statistically many times outgunned if you play actively. In mid-long range you lose to snipers, UMP45, FAMAS, FAL, RPD, etc, In close-mid to shotguns, Raffica, dual G18s, MP5K w/ steady aim, L86 LSW, TAR21, etc etc.. SCAR seems to be a camper weapon. If you kill with SCAR you ‘d kill with a handgun as well. Only a camper might be fine with that weaknesses: 1) small mag 2) fail to reload in the middle of a gun fight 3) slow ROF ---- as most of the time he shoots in the back and the most wanted features are low recoil and high damage, delivered by SCAR. You cannot run&gun with SCAR (ROF), you cannot controll area with SCAR (clip size), so you basically have to camp. No one talks about the Aug HBAR. Two hit kill anywhere. Grip is not really needed since its still really accurate, so you can put fmj and wallbang. The ROF is 666, faster than the scar, and it has a 40-something magazine. Its only cons are ADS and Mobility. But it still is a viable contender as a hybrid assault rifle/lmg. Hybrid? 1) [LMGs] AUG has lower penetration than RPD. Many kills thru walls done with RPD won’t happen with AUG. For controlling areas it is most important not to reload frequently, RPD + Grip + OMA PRO is the best solution, with SP PRO might be used very effectively as AA class to destroy UAVs/CUAVs as well. 2) {AR] Assault rifles can have grenade launchers… and resuply with Scavenger. That devastating kind of fire-power not available with AUG. You gota be fucking joking. I have a 300 plus wins in a row using the scar in FFA. The SCAR is overall the best gun.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 19, 2011 9:06:01 GMT -5
Ok, and now all we need is the time in ms that a human can react to. If it's grater than the scars 0.095 then the rof difference does not matter. much if at all. Incorrect. The TTKs posted assume perfect accuracy. If you have perfect accuracy, fine, go ahead and use those numbers practically. However, as others have said, the TAR's TTK advantage only increases as accuracy decreases. This means that in CQC where you are probably hip firing, every missed shot makes the TAR superior. You are also assuming perfect accuracy, just from the hip. And yes I agree from the hip in a CQC situation, the tar has an advantage. But that's it's only consistent advantage, even though hip firing is inconsistent in of it'self. It loses mid and long to the scar. The clip size advantage is based on luck. Very rarely will you encounter a fight needing a whole 30 bullets without reloading. And if you do, well maybe the poor accuracy of the tar is to blame.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Dec 19, 2011 9:15:10 GMT -5
I have a 300 plus wins in a row using the scar in FFA. If you have 300+ wins in a row with SCAR, you would have 300+ kills with other guns as well, so that is not an argument, moreover FFA is a lot about spawnkilling = a kind of tactical loitering. The SCAR is overall the best gun. SCAR is a decent gun for a camper.
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saiyaniam
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Post by saiyaniam on Dec 19, 2011 9:30:38 GMT -5
I have a 300 plus wins in a row using the scar in FFA. If you have 300+ wins in a row with SCAR, you would have 300+ kills with other guns as well, so that is not an argument, moreover FFA is a lot about spawnkilling = a kind of tactical loitering. The SCAR is overall the best gun. SCAR is a decent gun for a camper. My point is I'm clearly not outgunned most of the time like you claim. MW2 FFA about spawn killing? Now I know you're trolling. And surely the faster rate of fire would be better for a camper. After all it's advantage against the scar is that you don't have to aim to win. You play on pc so maybe it's different, but the things you just said are clearly bulldoo-doo.
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