Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 5:24:19 GMT -5
Don't forget though, hiding from the UAV is a huge advantage on it's own. I also like my idea of needing Pro to hide from AUAV:
Assassin: Hide from UAV
Pro: Hide from AUAV, Portable Radar, no red name
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 6:32:38 GMT -5
You guys don't know when to stop. It is a red perk. Most red perks are completely game changing. You can't nerf it like that.
If Assassin lose CUAV immunity, everyone will run support amok. If don't seeing enemies on UAV is bad enough, imagine don't having a mini-map at all. If it loses EMP immunity, EMP will be much more annoying than it is now.
I can see it already:
-CUAV
-Stealth Bomber
-EMP
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 7:33:31 GMT -5
But also keep in mind that most are suggesting that UAVs and CUAVs should be more visible to blind eye users. I suggest the notorious red box of detection. I suggest team work: Yesterday I was playing with ThaHawkNY and when the enemy called a UAV or CUAV, the whole team started to search it and it was destroyed pretty easily. It was even more fun when the enemy called a Pave Low, everyone started shooting at it and in 10 sec it was down. |
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Post by ipwn on Jul 23, 2012 7:33:53 GMT -5
To be honest i don't see a reason to have immunity to CUAV on Assassin, which is for me meant to mean you're undetectable, not that you're immune to a crapload of different things. Immunity to EMP? Run Blast Shield (or whatever perk you want to add it to) and you're fine. CUAV should have a counter as well, I agree. I'd pick Sitrep (which is meant to be about awareness) but Sitrep is already cool as it is, so I don't know.
Problem with Assassin is it counters a lot of very different things and it couters all of them HARD (read: total, 100% immunity). What Tyzerra suggested above seems to me a fair, balanced suggestion.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 7:38:52 GMT -5
I suggested EMP resistance (Map get scrambled, after all the receiver is fine, the sender got down) and HBS to Dead Silence. EMP time to 30 seconds is awesome as well, it is the same duration time as a UAV.
In the same reality CUAV is support, CUAV must have a counter.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 7:41:38 GMT -5
yeah but you can't rely on always having a team with AA. And you definitely can't gamble on your teammates taking it out. UAV's are a pain in the ass even to people who are running AA. I don't see why making the most common killstreaks in any call of duty ever easier to shoot down is a bad thing. I don't see why anything needs immunity to CUAV either. EDIT: And I'll say it again, you can't have HBS immunity on dead silence with Portable Radar immunity on assassin. That's TWO perks you have to run to feel safe from something that the game DOESN'T ALERT YOU TO. I even understand why it is hard to detect: it gives away free points. EDIT: So what? You must pay a price to be stealth. If silencers aren't OP enough. |
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Post by ipwn on Jul 23, 2012 7:42:01 GMT -5
While I agree totally EMP needs a counter too (or some sort of resistance to it), I'd rather avoid making any perk a real "go to" like Assassin mostly is. Which is why I mentioned Blast Shield (sounds also rather coherent to me). But if Dead Silence reaches a higher consensus, so be it.
Well, Medic, there is no perk in the game which alerts you to what the opponent is equipped with or which perks he's running.
Plus I don't find it a big sacrifice to run a Blind Eye, Assassin, Dead Silence and be pretty much covered against everything. Unlike now, when one single perk is more than enough for all of them plus more stuff.
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Post by ipwn on Jul 23, 2012 7:54:49 GMT -5
Well, as a basic stealth measure, Silencer and Assassin would be more than enough to keep yourself off the radar. Of course if PR and HBS becomes so much more popular, change your class accordingly (BE, Assa, DS) and there you go, you're totally invisible again and they wasted their tactical slot. Sounds fair to me.
Notice, that with what has been suggested, Assassin Pro would still be enough against PR and UAV. I don't see so many HBS to actually consider it a problem, but in that case DS would fix that.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 8:28:50 GMT -5
Just read Medic's last post and I'm understanding why he suggested what he did. I still don't think that the HBS is really a problem: it's rarely used, it takes up an attachment slot preventing Focus, Kick, etc to be used with a silencer AND the HBS together and it often distracts the player more than it alerts them.
It's a compromise from my previous suggestions, but I'm happy with this:
Assassin: Hide from UAV
Pro: Hide from AUAV, CUAV, EMP, No red name (countered by Marksman)
Dead Silence: Silent footsteps, reduce Recon to 6 secs
Pro: No fall damage, hide from PR, HBS
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 8:51:35 GMT -5
^ I understand that now, whereas before I didn't.
Do you approve of/have feedback on my Assassin/Dead Silence suggestions?
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 8:54:59 GMT -5
I really think we should have a spreadsheet with original perks, our changes, reasons why, etc like we have with the weapons. I wouldn't mind making it myself, but tomorrow I'm going away for a week... No-one has to, but I think it would help.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jul 23, 2012 8:58:19 GMT -5
What do you think abt moving Assassin to tier 3 and Dead Silence to tier 2?
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 9:01:45 GMT -5
What do you think abt moving Assassin to tier 3 and Dead Silence to tier 2? Oh no, no, no. There's only a small chance they'll do what we've come up with here, let alone swap perks around different tiers! |
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Post by A Unicorn with the Flag on Jul 23, 2012 9:06:21 GMT -5
Hardline
Plant Bombs 33% Faster
Capture Points 20% FasterNo, not a very good (balanced) idea. The 20% quicker caps would be a small problem in Headquarters, but not in domination. I say it is not an issue in dom due to the fact that capturing a point does not finish the point. In headquarters, once the point is claimed, the capturing team owns the point. It cannot be taken back, only destroyed. The problem with allowing an individual to plant a bomb in 3.35 seconds - 1.65 seconds less than any other - is that it breaks the mechanic of a short-term game like search. The same logic which I (might have) provided above with HQ, can be applied to search. If you have ever played search (and I know you have a you've played with me) there are innumerable times where one player begins to plant and is killed when the bar is seemingly filled but the bomb has not yet planted. Whereas using this newfangled hardline would give the planter plenty of time to plant, find cover and wait for the defenders to come. It then takes five seconds to defuse, thus giving the attacking team a perpetual advantage in all search games. Additionally, this perk becomes gametype specific. Only in search and demolition can this ability be used. Then the 20% quicker capture points can only be used in Dom/Headquarters. This eliminates a large chunk of its functionality in TDM (non-objective) games, which are what most people play (albeit they are bored out of their minds). You might claim that recon is a gametype specific perk and I would say absolutely you are right . Same with Blast shield. But the fact of the matter is that these two perks can still be used. Their effect still functions. Happy face for creativity: ;D Would be fookin great though to have some sweet quick plants. |
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jul 23, 2012 9:09:03 GMT -5
What do you think abt moving Assassin to tier 3 and Dead Silence to tier 2? Oh no, no, no. There's only a small chance they'll do what we've come up with here, let alone swap perks around different tiers! I’m just considering, not proposing anything. Maybe Assassin should compete with Stalker, Steady Aim, Marksman in the same tier, and Quickdraw vs Dead Silence, Blastshield and Overkill in tier 2? |
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Post by A Unicorn with the Flag on Jul 23, 2012 9:10:21 GMT -5
Well, as a basic stealth measure, Silencer and Assassin would be more than enough to keep yourself off the radar. Of course if PR and HBS becomes so much more popular, change your class accordingly (BE, Assa, DS) and there you go, you're totally invisible again and they wasted their tactical slot. Sounds fair to me. They wasted their tactical but you wasted your three perks. Unless you run specialist, you become rather outclassed in objective games like HQ/search. |
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 9:40:09 GMT -5
Yes, but at the moment, that's only because assassin counters it as it is. The portable radar already has a lot of popularity. If ONLY hbs is moved to dead silence, then a person needs both perks for passive invisibility. Thus, HBS would become more useful, and by extension more popular. It'll end up stifling a lot of playstyles and indirectly nerfing an assload of perks. The game already has enough of "shoot first and you win". It doesn't need to become "see him on your scanner and you win." I understand that mmacola is trying to really nerf assassin (or just stealth perks in general), but by requiring both to accomplish one goal, passive detection becomes more popular, and then having stealth perks becomes more important, so it's indirectly nerfing non-stealth perks even more, by making what stealth perks counter more powerful. What about Thermal? It should be moved out of assassin as well just because it is passive? And what about Recon? It is a much as passive as Portable Radar... it just takes a perk slot instead. Should recon resistance be moved to Assassin as well? Doesn't make any sense. Being stealthy is a very exclusive playstyle and someone who choose to do this must be 100% non-combat ready. It is a play style directed for two things: tactical loitering and Flanking. Going face-to-face with Assassin should be your doom, but it isn't. The player can use stalker/steady-aim and come up victorious. This shouldn't be the case. And btw, what you're saying happens with pretty much every setup that doesn't have Assassin: You must have your smart pants on all the time, because you are pretty much always in danger of being located. Why should a single perk handle this for you? MW2: UAV - Cold Blooded/HBS - Ninja. Blops: Spy Plane - Ghost/Motion Sensor - Sitrep. MW3: Everything - Assassin. |
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Jul 23, 2012 9:52:03 GMT -5
^ > The player can use stalker/steady-aim and come up victorious. This shouldn't be the case.
that is why I suggested moving Assassin to tier 3 ...
Probably QD and Assassin should be both in tier 3.
Marksman & DS - tier 2.
Just asking....
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 9:58:30 GMT -5
^ > The player can use stalker/steady-aim and come up victorious. This shouldn't be the case. that is why I suggested moving Assassin to tier 3 ... Probably QD and Assassin should be both in tier 3. Marksman & DS - tier 2. Just asking.... It would be good, but kinda of late to this =P |
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 10:22:46 GMT -5
My ideas on Stealth Perks is different than yours. You only see them as a way to run around/play objective, while I see them as a very strong tactical loitering incentive. You say the lack of passive immunity causes people to camp, I say the presence of easy passive immunity causes people to camp. While both of us are right, I believe it is easy to say I'm more right herp derp  Really, I'd rather see people that hide their arses in a corner while I detect them with a HBS than giving one single perk a bunch of immunities. Also, if you don't mind me saying, there is another passive immunity Assassin provides. Marksman. If it should lose Thermal, HBS and PR to another perk, it should lose Marksman as well. |
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 10:42:47 GMT -5
Campers are hindered: They need to use 3 perks to be fully stealthy. Before, they could freely use Sitrep, for example, so they wouldn't even need to leave their shadowy corner. Now they are in danger if they don't use one of these single perks.
On the other hand, rushers are happy as ever. They don't want to use Assassin (they may want to plant the bomb and be ready to any face-to-face combat, so they use quickdraw). They are now hindered against someone using PR and there is no way for them to avoid that: But they can be protected against anyone using a HBS. In the other hand, the rusher can be the one using HBS and getting those campers that swear they are combat safe if using Stalker/Steady Aim.
And a reminder: HBS takes more time to scan now than in previous games (but you can switch weapons and in return they will always scan + good combo with pistols).
And on another topic, PR should have its range reduced. You are allowed to throw it for god's sake, make the user at least aim for a tactical spot. A little bit more than Scrambler seems good, I don't know.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Jul 23, 2012 11:06:56 GMT -5
I like Medic's ideas. +1 Support.
Just to make sure I got it right:
Blind Eye gets Thermal immunity and marks all UAV type killstreaks on map.
Assassin loses Thermal, PR, and HBS immunity.
Dead Silence gets PR and HBS immunity.
Marksmen still can't detect Assassins. (I think they should be able to)
I'm confused as to what MMA is arguing. It seems you two are in agreement, though you have different reasons why.
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Post by Marvel4 on Jul 23, 2012 11:15:24 GMT -5
Dead Silence: Silent footsteps, reduce Recon to 6 secs Pro: No fall damage, hide from PR, HBS Like I said before, the reduction of fall damage should be moved to Extreme Conditioning. |
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Jul 23, 2012 11:26:41 GMT -5
I see HBS maybe once every play session but I see PRs in just about every other match. PRs are powerful enough where they are widely used. I guess most players value an attachment more than they value tactical equipment (I can see why).
Moving PR immunity to Dead Silence would initially increase PR use. Then dead silence use would increase, then it would level off to where you see PRs a little more often and Dead Silence a little more often. I'm okay with this, I can spot a PR with Sitrep already. But Sitrep doesn't help me when I get flashed and stunned up the ass.
I guess I could always use BlaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry I couldn't do it.
The idea is that the third perk can make you extra stealthy, on top of Blind Eye/Assassin, but you're forgoing your anti stealth-options to do so. Marksman would counter Assassin to a degree and Sitrep would counter DS to a degree. That's why I think Marksmen should be able to spot Assassins.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Jul 23, 2012 11:49:53 GMT -5
Stalker is fine as is. I've used it on a lot of my classes and I've never felt it was underpowered in any way. It's great combined with ARs and LMGs in CQC as you can quickly turn a corner will ADS, often times getting the jump on an enemy who is pre-aiming the edge of the corner. For example, trying to flush loiterers out of the connector overwatching B in Liberation is made much easier with Stalker. Trying to regain control of the center of the map on Hardhat or Mission is also a lot easier when you can ADS around corners at run speed.
The trip delay on Claymores, Bettys, and especially IMS has also saved my ass more times than I can count.
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Tyzerra
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Post by Tyzerra on Jul 23, 2012 12:10:50 GMT -5
Dead Silence: Silent footsteps, reduce Recon to 6 secs Pro: No fall damage, hide from PR, HBS Like I said before, the reduction of fall damage should be moved to Extreme Conditioning. Sorry, yes, you're right - I completely forgot about that! It wouldn't be huge, but makes sense and would give Ex Con something a little extra to work with. For example, trying to flush loiterers out of the connector overwatching B in Liberation is made much easier with Stalker. I'm sorry - did you just say that you played Liberation? How do you resist the temptation of backing out when that map comes up?! My least favourite COD map ever in all of eternity and the space-time continuum  |
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 12:12:35 GMT -5
I still don't think PR should be moved to Dead Silence, it would make it more powerful than Assassin and is unlocked late (55), meaning more time playing unprotected. Assassin on the other hand is unlocked at level 26 IIRC. If there is a buff to the other red perks, like Blast Shield/Hardline, Assassin will be close to useless. Leave it with PR immunity at least.
FFA is PR infested btw.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 12:25:14 GMT -5
Well my initial solution was to give PR immunity to both assassin AND Dead silence, so a person could get by using either one. Which isn't a particularly bad idea, but people just tend to go cuckoo on effects overlapping. But PR is overpowered as f uck anyway so I don't see a problem with it. Its because Sitrep already does that (indirectly, you must avoid/destroy it), so I don't think it needs another counter. The Sitrep detection radius could still be larger though, bouncing betties are shown further away than PRs |
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 12:45:38 GMT -5
Specialist?
And really, as all enemy equipment, PR already has Sitrep to counter it. I'd rather have them nerfing PR than giving it's immunity to DS as well.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jul 23, 2012 12:51:39 GMT -5
Specialist should not be a major consideration when it comes to balance. Chances are, people would not be getting 2 killstreaks right off the bat just to make their class managable. Especially in search where detection pretty much means death right then and there. Then use Assassin. What are you complaining son MW2 I used M4A1 Silencer + Heartbeat Sensor PP2000 Silencer + Ext. Mags Bling Pro Cold Blooded Pro Ninja Pro Some people used ACRs but I never liked the sights so it wouldn't fit alright with this class. I'm paying off to be stealthy as it should be. The point of the game is to be a "fast-paced combat", so the more a stealth class costs, the more fast paced it will be. |
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