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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 10:39:51 GMT -5
I put a thread up on overall BO2 thoughts, this one is specifically for the Domination game mode. Why not? I have nothing else to post about today. It's also the 2nd most popular game mode, and with BO2...this is THE one game mode that has had some epic changes to made to it, with how it plays. Some of my thoughts. 1. I'm going to jump right into the biggest change. Halftime switching. It's kind of hard to assess just how much this has changed gameplay, but it definitely has somewhat. If either side has any type of momentum going, it now abruptly comes to a screaching halt. On the flip side, it can help a team that is struggling. 2. I mentioned this in the other thread, but right now, I am kind of shocked at just how many groups are playing Ground War, and GW Dom. That's where I have been. I have played about 48 games so far, and no exaggeration, I would say about 40 to 45 of those games had other full parties on the other side. It feels like old Clan ops. I can see the groups coming into the lobbies, whole groups. Plus, see entire groups linked up via the XBL party chat. I'm kind of shocked by this. In MW3, i would guess only 3 out of 10 games had other groups. So far, it's more like 8 out of 10. Can't say every group is playing hard to win...but the groups are there. 3. Needless to say, competition has been a bit 'stiffer' in Domination than the past few months in MW3. Lots of reasons. But most of all, right now, the KD whores has a major leg up in the ongoing battle between them and Objective players. KD whores have it easy, as they don't care if they win or lose....and know EXACTLY where guys who do care, will be. And when you add in new maps, new hiding spots, new game mechanics all in the first few days....major advantage to the whores right now. I've felt it. I've been taking a beating the first 48 games. Lots of ... "WTF, he's hiding where???"...type of comments from me. And lots of dying. My KD is like 1.05. And that's a huge improvement as after the first 25 games so, it was 0.75. For perspective, I was routinely running a 2.50 to 2.90 KD the last three months of MW3. Ouch. I don't care though, it will be what it will be, as winning comes first. 4. The above has led to a number of interesting comments from opponents. One full group we played, did some serious mocking pre-match last night, making fun of us. Like... "Haha, look at this clan, their top KD ratio over there is 1.2, LMAO", following by the usual taunts about beating us down. Yeah, the KD mentality is still strong in BlackOps. Retards are there. Needless to say, the above group got beat. No sh1t talk from them post match. All of them were quiet. 5. Other reasons for the above tougher play? Locked Items. The Tac Insert is locked for a long time. GW Domination is just a numbers game. Two sides pushing to see who can maintain more numbers in the middle. And right now, with the TI buried deep in the locked list, this helps KD whores...as they view it as a wasted perk, team guys don't. So without it, it's harder to control the middle with numbers, as we have to spawn way in the back. And the KD whores, they can easily pick off people coming from the rear of the map, moving out in the open trying to reset up in their spots. (or at least the whores cherry picking on the flanks) Another reason has also been Flak Jacket being locked and buried deep too. Myself and all my friends, have been crushed with grenades and sh1t being tossed on us. Flak jacket can't come soon enough. 6. The maps. The maps feel very linear right now. Haven't had time to look at them closely, but from my end...there has been very little spawn flipping in GW. It's hard(er) to flank to the rear in GW. All it takes is one or two tent-dwellers hiding somewhere in the back, and 'bang',....a flanking attack is stopped dead. And with no TI, follow-up is impossible. A bit frustrating. But all in all, from the little i have checked, most maps right now seem to be balanced, in terms of distances from A/C to the middle B. 7. with all the above.....the end result has been a lot of big time bull-d1cking on the B flag. Hence, the large number of deaths. Need B? No TI and high Killstreaks are hard to get? Use smoke and pound the flag with mass assaults. I'm sure some whores on the other teams are quit happy by this. And again, going back to things being 'new'...people are still trying to figure out the angles to take when capping B.This will come in time. 7a. Spawn Trapping? Where? Haven't seen one yet. 7b. High killstreaks? Where? Haven't seen one yet. 8. Back to maps. Some maps are brutal though.For example. 'Drone' has turned out to be a real bugger. The 'C' side is just flat out bad, even though it is the high side of the map. The positioning of the B flag unfortunately is right after what is soon becoming known as the 'Bottleneck'. A constriction in the walls beneath 3 to 4 ledges and rooms....and the open space area is on the A side (where B flag is). It's RIDICULOUSLY easier to cap or recap B from A....and one can be hidden. This has led to some furious battles for the side rooms, and some heavy KD whoring from the A side distant ledges. Halftime switching has led to some interesting strategies. Stay close if starting on C, and then lock down for the win in the second half. Pic below....looking from the C side, down into the constricted 'bottleneck' spot. B flag sits slightly beyond the overhanging walkway.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 14, 2012 11:10:30 GMT -5
With the minimal insight i might have...Drone seems to be all about lockout tactics focused around the B building. If you can prevent them from making that top catwalk their home (make it miserable for them) it becomes it becomes easier to hold B even on the bad side.
The side windows that connect to the outside are also a very easy way to ruin catwalk camper's days.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 11:54:49 GMT -5
With the minimal insight i might have...Drone seems to be all about lockout tactics focused around the B building. If you can prevent them from making that top catwalk their home (make it miserable for them) it becomes it becomes easier to hold B even on the bad side. The side windows that connect to the outside are also a very easy way to ruin catwalk camper's days. The way the map plays, the catwalk is a nonissue. The catwalk is pretty much instant death. From what I have seen so far, don't even go near it. If one is attacking form the C side, the real problem is the sheer number of head-glitcher spots once you clear the bottleneck. Where people destroy you is in all the areas I have marked with X and Y. The second problem is with angles. The A side spawn has the short angle, inside track to the ledges that overlook B. The C-side spawn has the inside track to a ledge too, (both areas are in black), but as you can see, the C side black area, doesnt' quite have a clean look at B, especially some of the 'x' spot areas. And again...you stick your head out of either window in the black areas...in GW, you will be dead in about five seconds. Another thing which makes it tough for C-side, is the inside track to flank on that side....takes one right into head-glticher spot 'z', which is already becoming known as a notorious spot. That and the upstairs window right behind it. It's very hard for one or two guys to get by a competent person here. Pretty much...the battle breaks down over the machine room, right behind the lower Black area ledge/window spots. This is the key battle. The problem for C-side, is, as can be seen, distance/numbers work against you, all things equal. You simply can't match spawn for spawn, all things equal here. Looking at B, 20 meters away, from the A side. The spot marked by the large X, is the highest pct capping odds spot. The smaller x to it's left, this is a very good defensive spot in close games. The defender here can clean out cappers, and the only way to remove him is to jump out the windows above...which also means getting shot. ..
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 14, 2012 12:01:18 GMT -5
I guess it is one of those maps that require a tac to force the switch
oh wait.
That takes forever to unlock....
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 12:05:38 GMT -5
I guess it is one of those maps that require a tac to force the switch oh wait. That takes forever to unlock.... Yep lol So for now, it's a lot of smoke and lots of dying on B. If the C side can just time it, so that the lower black area can 'sort of' be controlled...and then just time it so 3 guys jump B, with lots of smoke, it can work.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Nov 14, 2012 12:11:15 GMT -5
Get a sniper above C in the grass and he can take everyone out.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 12:23:10 GMT -5
Get a sniper above C in the grass and he can take everyone out. He can't take out anyone in those spots I have marked with a 'x' Those defenders are completely shielded. Again, .....this is the problem. The B flag is after the bottleneck, on the A side of the map. They can head-glitch the hell out of B. C-side can't. What a sniper can do though, is at least neuter those opponents head-glitching on the spots i have marked with a 'Y'. That helps. Ultimately though, it's kind of inconsequential to winning the game though.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Nov 14, 2012 12:43:47 GMT -5
A brute force Mission(the map)-esque strategy might be called for here. If you have the bad side.... overwhelm the enemy spawn (instead of initially attacking B) with sheer numbers on a side route while the enemy is getting B. Leave one guy back on the bad side to cap it for the points.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 13:04:31 GMT -5
Good thoughts up there. Time will tell.
As far as brute force flanking maneuvers, so far, it's hard on GW. The maps seem to be very linear. Tight. Like Drone, there are only two side routes at the chokepoints. That's it. And what happens is one is pushing a team initially on their spawn, while they are defending. You roll seven guys to the right side.......have a nice 7 vs 3, you might take out all three opponents, but will probably suffer at least 3 to 4 on your own. And without TI's......it's now those remaining three guys, against three again after they spawn...you are pushing right into them. If they get any help at all, ....
...you will probably only have 1 guy left to cap the flag. And him sitting out in the open, for ten seconds? Hard to do. Not impossible, just hard.
I tried to the silent re-spawn trick, but so far, i couldn't tell if it's working.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 14, 2012 14:35:56 GMT -5
Played mostly domination in my BO2 debut night with parties of various size. Below are my thoughts.
The unlock system is very unfriendly to Dom players who are trying to win. At level 20 I still don't have any of the following:
1) Flak Jacket & Trophy System. Without these, trying to cap B = many deaths from grenades.
2) Tactical Insertion: Without this, plus the fact that the respawn points are usually far from B flag, I would have to run a lot to get into the action.
3) Ghost perk: having Ghost locked until level 55 = the best thing ever happened to kill whores in Dom. To counter the UAV spam I had to use the default class with Ghost, but that one is not optimal because it does not have speed related perks and a silenced weapon.
My personal Dom results after a brutal night of play:
3.25 hours of Domination 3.75 W/L ratio 0.79 KDR
What this means is that Dom is now a fight of W/L players (the real Dom players) vs. K/D whores. I have quite a few games that our team won with a large margin, but almost every player has a significant negative KD spread.
It's brutal but I feel pumped. Look forward to the next stage that we can crash them on both W/L and K/D.
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Post by rubixx on Nov 14, 2012 15:03:51 GMT -5
Good post witty!
I feel the same way. It is so frustrating without FJ or TI's to try and cap/hold points. To top it off you have people in dom killwhoring and not even playing the objective. They should have kept kills at 50 score but have capture kills at 200 or 175 to prevent killwhores from playing dom. You get more score in dom by just killing than you would in normal TDM....silly!
My W/L is awful b/c I was playing solo and my KDR is 1.2 ish. I cant play now b/c of the connection issues, along with half the PS3 userbase judging by the threads on the official forums.
I am just looking forward to getting some good equipment to cap/defend flags and then we will really see if this game is good or not.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 15:13:47 GMT -5
Nice post Witty, good to have you playing the game. Hang in there. The tide will start to turn. What is good in this world, decent, 'right' ... ...basically us and how we do things, it will triumph over the dirtbags of the world - the murderers, thieves, and KD whores who play CoD games. Once some of our tools are unlocked, the universe will be reset back to it's proper order.
Look at it this way. We have things to look forward too. Unlocking more tools. Them? There's nothing coming up to help their cause, except perhaps Ghost and that's been nerfed. Its pretty much all downhill from this point on.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 14, 2012 15:40:18 GMT -5
As we gain more knowledge about the game one aspect to improve (at least for me) is to effectively counter the scorestreaks. There were a few games in which our team were getting blasted by craps of which the identity I still yet to identify :-), nonstop throughout the game. In one game, the top player on the opposing team went 81-2 (and yet we still won).
Losing a gun fight is one thing. Get Mind Bulletsed from a tactical loitering spot is unpleasant but OK, deaths from things used by players I can't see (grenades, scorestreaks, etc) are just plainly rage inducing :-). It would have been OK if I have TI and get back into the action, but no, it won't be unlocked until 40+ level, so run Forrest run...
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 15:57:11 GMT -5
I am curious if there is a some cheat/glitch or something going on Witty. I've had some weird experiences like that.
The first night (or early am Tuesday), I had a a group of five of us ran into a group of players who were like level 47 or so. This is at like 3am opening night. How someone could level up that much in 2-3 hours, is beyond me. Nonetheless, I watched two guys on the other team go 60+-8, and then the other guy go like 55-1. I'm not the world's best player, but we aren't that bad. And the thing is, we had H/Jesus with us...probably the best player in our clan. He went 23-45 (i was 5-50). I have been playing with HJesus for YEARS....I have never seen him go negative. EVER. None.
And this opponent somehow pulled off the above? I don't mean to sound whiny...but no one is that good. There had to be something shady going on. This guy was all over the place, shooting us before we even saw him. I couldn't even camp it out. Spawn...killed. Spawn...move...killed. I died like ten times without ever shooting my gun.
Sad thing was? We only lost by 20pts. Go figure. And right as expected, when i tried to watch it in theater to see what he did....the game wouldn't load.
The above has happened to me three times now since Tuesday AM. Those three games, i am like a combined 31-150.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 16:03:18 GMT -5
As we gain more knowledge about the game one aspect to improve (at least for me) is to effectively counter the scorestreaks. I haven't been able to recognize very well the stuff being called in.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 14, 2012 16:31:33 GMT -5
iw5000: this is only my second time playing CoD MP, and I am curious about the following: compared to your past experience when you first start a new CoD game (say MW2, BO1, MW3, etc), is it as brutal during the noob stage as we are currently experiencing in BO2? BTW, those high level guys you ran into during the opening night, they must have the game earlier. It happens. Most of them got their copies from their "connections".
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 16:46:04 GMT -5
iw5000: this is only my second time playing CoD MP, and I am curious about the following: compared to your past experience when you first start a new CoD game (say MW2, BO1, MW3, etc), is it as brutal during the noob stage as we are currently experiencing in BO2? BTW, those high level guys you ran into during the opening night, they must have the game earlier. It happens. Most of them got their copies from their "connections". to the second thought...I suppose so, but how does one explain them doing THAT well? I find it hard to believe, that people are THAT good. Even if they had the game a week earlier. I'm kind of inclined to think they were cheating somehow. I don't follow that stuff enough to know any more. That said, I fully expect my KD to be much lower with BO2. It will have to be. The nature of the reduced stacking is going to make it tremendously difficult to maintain the MW3 results. Killstreaks alone (in MW3) probably puffed up my KD by about 20%. Adding anywhere from 7 to 15 kills a game in streaks, does that. I'm not getting any right now.
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Post by brutalonslaught on Nov 14, 2012 16:50:55 GMT -5
Sounds like a lagswitch to me, trick the lag comp into thinking you have a gash connection then dominate. Hard to prove but permabanned if found out.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 14, 2012 17:12:23 GMT -5
Sounds like a lagswitch to me, trick the lag comp into thinking you have a gash connection then dominate. Hard to prove but permabanned if found out. yeah, I just don't know. I don't know anything about that stuff. I do remember quite a few games like that from MW2. People running the under the rock glitches, ...even the CG glitch. I remember just being pummeled into the ground and killed over and over. But I recognized those things. Not sure what was being done here.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 19, 2012 8:20:37 GMT -5
After a full weekend of Domination games, this game mode sure seems plays differently now. I can't quite put my finger on it. Most of the play feels the same, but it just feels a bit 'off'.
- I think the halftime effect is the biggest factor. This really does change HOW the game is played. I think the halves are five minutes each?. No matter how much you have a team locked down, they get a free pass/start at half. I'm really noticing this one. This reset makes games a bit closer.
- I've played about 100 Dom games or so, and I have yet to see spawn trap, like on par with Interchange, Bootleg or Arkaden. I've seen a few games were we have the enemies pushed back very well, but that's as close as it gets. I'm not sure why this is. It could be related to the above halftime feature. It might be related to the maps still being new. I think the difficulty of getting good airborne scorestreaks might be a player here. (but that doesn't explain Arkaden). One factor might be sniping...
- Sniping seems much much much more effective this game. Are the sightlines longer on this game? Character models smaller? Like on the map 'Drone', I can know a sniper is sitting on the main hill by C, or the pad by A...know he's right there and sniping......and it won't matter. I can't see that far. And if i go out to peek, try to aim with an AR, ...i'm nailed before i can even see the opponent. I haven't sniped, so I'm not sure here.
- I have noticed this item for sure. Opponent strategy. Almost every Dom game I play, the top scorer on the other team follows the following strategy. Game start....rush off to a remote head-glitcher spot on their side, usually a second floor window, and start just getting kills. I know this is something that was done before, but it seems more effective now.
I'm seeing (post match) a ton of top scorers going say 30-10, with ONE or zero caps. This means they are racing to camp-for-kills. And on many of these games, when i go back to watch the CoDCasting feature....yep, their strategy is embarrassing. They are literally circling up and around in the same room/spot the entire game. Almost every game has 2 to 4 trying to do this. 95% of the time, they are guys with good KD's (1.50+) and just TERRIBLE WL ratios. They follow the same pattern.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 19, 2012 9:05:38 GMT -5
i don't know?
Maybe i am getting older. On some of these maps, I honestly can't even see the snipers looking upon B...using a red-dot or iron sights. For me, it's almost pointless to try and shoot. I'll never hit them. Now that said, i have no problem whatsoever with this. I think this helps give sniping a solid, vital role. I like it. It feels like every team on every Dom map should have a designated sniper to help give the opponents fits, at least make them think twice of moving their open spaces around B.
The problem with randoms, their groups...is that 3/4 of the team end up being 'the sniper'....the guy getting kills....and no one wants to do the grunt work.
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Post by iw5000 on Nov 19, 2012 9:26:02 GMT -5
Maybe its time to use that shield with overkill.... I've tried it. Not working very well for me, especially on B. Most of the time, there are just to many angles to hit me.
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 19, 2012 12:22:04 GMT -5
For the items issue, not the best solution, but look at the default classes.
If you are taking a beatdown and need a TI, play the default class that has the TI in it. Again, not the best solution, but it's better than nothing if you really need it.
I'm missing Flak Jacket more than anything right now... going to hold that in high consideration for what to use my Prestige Token on.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 21, 2012 13:48:11 GMT -5
btw:
PC:
I stopped playing DOM, no sense, explosives spam incl. airstrikes/predators is unbelivable even for MW2 standards, I died a lot capturing flags. A. LOT. kdr 0.75. Flack Jacket helps only a litle. B flag is too open vs the amt of frags&co the opponents have.
I doubled mouse sensitivity, swaped to TDM / KC, where frags require aiming, and kdr 1.5 at once. A miracle.
bibi DOM.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Nov 21, 2012 13:53:46 GMT -5
If you are taking a beatdown and need a TI, play the default class that has the TI in it. Again, not the best solution, but it's better than nothing if you really need it. Was doing this. Until my seventh custom class overwrote it. VONDERHAAAAAAAR!
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Slick
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Post by Slick on Nov 21, 2012 15:07:36 GMT -5
Losing my only ghost class made me very sad face.
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Nov 21, 2012 23:46:18 GMT -5
Agreed that having custom classes overwrite default classes sucks. Not sure why they choose to go that route. Same in BO1. I like many of their innovations, but I have to say that IW had some really good ones, too. I particularly miss specialist, and I actually thought support was a great idea - just needed to tweak the actual rewards and values. Oh well. Gotta play with (and get frustrated by...) what they give us.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 22, 2012 1:20:23 GMT -5
After doing some research on Prestiging ( denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nonsense&action=display&thread=5378 ), I think that it might be a good idea not to enable these custom loadouts too early, and suffer the negative side effect of losing the default classes. This is because some of the strategic items that can enrich your loadout design are high level unlocks (e.g.: Ghost, Awareness, TI, Scavenger, C4, Trophy, etc). Without them being available you probably don't need more than 5 loadouts. At the very least: compare the flexibility you gain by having an extra loadout with the loss of the corresponding default loadout, and decide whether it is worth it. I probably won't enable the custom loadout classes until prestige 3, after I have Ghost & TI permanently unlocked, assuming the choice of having an extra custom class can be preserved across prestiges (i.e.: if I wait until prestige 3, I can choose to add 3 custom loadout slots in one go)
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Post by jaedrik on Nov 22, 2012 13:11:16 GMT -5
The thing I like about it is that I get a lot more points than anyone else in the entire game by having a far lesser amount of kills. I'm not about K/D, I'm about Points per minute.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Nov 29, 2012 13:50:44 GMT -5
"Spawn trapping" (or more precisely speaking, "spawn containment") has been the most effective Dom strategy in the past CoD. In BO2 however, we have not quite figured out the exact boundaries to make this work.
I just thought of one effective way to achieve this by taking advantage of BO2's Bot feature:
1) Organize a party of 4-6 players; 2) Can we do CodCast in Custom Games? If yes, then add a CodCaster to the party; 3) Go into Custom Games; 4) Set up 6 enemy bots;
Play Dom games on each map and have the CodCaster watch the overhead mode and call out spawns outside of containment area every time that happens.
The players should start out way back, and then gradually advance forward to reduce the size of the "containment" area, until such a time when enemies start spawning behind them.
Should not take long to figure out the boundaries for each map.
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