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Post by volgon on Nov 28, 2012 5:57:42 GMT -5
I picked up a gun with TF on, playing on Yemen, and I have to say I was supprised how good it was. I think it would only be competitive on larger maps though. I have never felt the urge to create a class with one though. Maybe on an LMG! It's very useful on maps with a lot of clutter and areas to cover. Maps like Carrier and Turbine it really shines since you can scan an area and the sight might pick up someone you would have missed.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Nov 28, 2012 12:26:11 GMT -5
I used it for searching the windows with the FAL - "oop - there's one...."
Particular good on Yemen....
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Nov 28, 2012 12:31:58 GMT -5
it doesn't obstruct anything.
it's OP because you can fire full auto without having to "plink" out targets. you have absolutely no regard to recoil, weapon flash, weapon visually covering covering the target and the target being obscured by cover become meaningless. there is no loosing track of a target because you're shooting.
see red box hold down trigger pull crosshair to red box won
for the one person in a game has cold blooded in a match pull crosshair over target until turns red shoot won
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Post by dgcool on Dec 17, 2012 6:31:37 GMT -5
I'd like to double check: Target Finder does NOT increase recoil or increase ADS time. Correct? Thank you.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 17, 2012 8:01:06 GMT -5
it doesn't obstruct anything. it's OP because you can fire full auto without having to "plink" out targets. you have absolutely no regard to recoil, weapon flash, weapon visually covering covering the target and the target being obscured by cover become meaningless. there is no loosing track of a target because you're shooting. see red box hold down trigger pull crosshair to red box won for the one person in a game has cold blooded in a match pull crosshair over target until turns red shoot won If you are going to simplify it that way, aiming is OP: see person hold down trigger pull crosshair to person won EDIT: If you see a red box with the TF, you are ADS. If you are ADS and see someone, it's either: 1) someone moving while you are looking over them (would have seen without TF), or 2) someone in a tactical loitering or head glitching spot (which TF helps against). The TF, like Marksman, helps a lot when spotting targets at medium-long ranges, but that's all it does: make them easier to spot. Really, like Marksman, it's another tool against campers... which BO2 seems to want to try and get rid of for the most part... which I like.
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Slick
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Post by Slick on Dec 17, 2012 10:05:55 GMT -5
Killerpuffball, you should resize that image on the previous page.
[img width=xxx height=yyy]image[/img]
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 17, 2012 13:19:22 GMT -5
The TF is slightly OP'd.... coldblooded does a nice job of countering it.
If there was to be a further nerf, maybe a slight increase in the delay it takes to find the target of say.... .3 of a second?
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 17, 2012 13:27:06 GMT -5
How is the TF OP? Only way I can think of is the red highlight of the crosshairs when you are directly over someone (even CB users). Silly western Canadians.
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hyperion
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Post by hyperion on Dec 17, 2012 14:10:11 GMT -5
I used it in the beginning. Then hated it to death. Now back to using it. I dont know why i get this idea in my head to not use "mainstream" or "noob" things and uses obscure classes then get mad when someone with a target finder kills me. The way i see it you have to use everything you have to give you the advantage even if its considered cheesy. Although i never in my entire life noob tubed people to death like in mw2 that was just bad form.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 17, 2012 15:46:09 GMT -5
How is the TF OP? Only way I can think of is the red highlight of the crosshairs when you are directly over someone (even CB users). Silly western Canadians. Step 1: Run into area Step 2: ADS TFinder into areas that are pitch black and cannot be easily seen Step 3: Step 4: Profit. EDIT: and those silly western canadians are a bit more west than I... I prefer to be a silly central canadian
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 18, 2012 7:38:03 GMT -5
How is the TF OP? Only way I can think of is the red highlight of the crosshairs when you are directly over someone (even CB users). Silly western Canadians. Step 1: Run into area Step 2: ADS TFinder into areas that are pitch black and cannot be easily seen Step 3: Step 4: Profit. EDIT: and those silly western canadians are a bit more west than I... I prefer to be a silly central canadian DB would do the same. Firing a shot or two would warn you if someone is there. Same as throwing a Tactical there. Or having a UAV up. Or Orbital VSAT. Besides, once again, I didn't think many people complained about Marksman and that's what Target Finder is (except only ADS). I can see though that, without the heartbeat sensor and portable radar, people would hate something that highlights them and prevents tactical loitering... Hey, your more West than me, so you are Western in my eyes. (NB here)
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 18, 2012 12:46:15 GMT -5
Marksman isnt half as good as Target Finder, and it was usually countered as well.
TF is just so stupid as the only people it helps are either extreme campers or awful players who cant aim... [usually the same thing anyway]
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 18, 2012 12:53:47 GMT -5
In most cases, isn't DB a very late unlock? Where as the TF is unlocked earlier. Firing a shot or two would warn you if someone is there. I suppose Same as throwing a Tactical there. There's more than 2 dark corners on a map though... TF doesn't waste resources. Agreed While not super rare, it is rare enough (at least in the TDM's I play) and again, TF you just need to ADS and scan around... don't need to kill anyone to do that Besides, once again, I didn't think many people complained about Marksman and that's what Target Finder is (except only ADS). I can see though that, without the heartbeat sensor and portable radar, people would hate something that highlights them and prevents tactical loitering... I'm not saying that the TF is super overpowered.... but it is slightly overpowered and could use a tone. Nothing crazy, but as I suggested earlier, a slight delay in the detector would be more than acceptable to tone it. Hey, your more West than me, so you are Western in my eyes. (NB here) Ah... I understand... NB is a beautiful province, btw... only spent a dayish there, but it was a nice dayish.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 18, 2012 13:12:24 GMT -5
asasa: Target Finder alerts you of people, even if they have Cold Blooded, if you aim directly at them. Marksman was a perk that could be used with all weapons and attachments. Not only that, but Marksman worked in more "wall hack" situations then I've seen with the TF. I've never been able to see the red diamond appear where I couldn't see the person itself. I think it's because (I'm probably wrong) more of the body has to be exposed for TF to highlight someone than it took MM to highlight someone. I'm not saying that the TF is super overpowered.... but it is slightly overpowered and could use a tone. Nothing crazy, but as I suggested earlier, a slight delay in the detector would be more than acceptable to tone it. Again, I still don't see how it's OP, even in the slightest. It lets you target non-CB users with a giant red diamond. CB has the same general effect on SRs and LMGs, regardless of when it's unlocked. The only thing that might be be close to bringing it to OP is that the crosshairs turn red when directly aiming at someone, even if they have CB. And honestly, that could be removed and it wouldn't make a big difference. Ah... I understand... NB is a beautiful province, btw... only spent a dayish there, but it was a nice dayish. Only been as far West as Ontario myself.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 18, 2012 13:17:26 GMT -5
Only been as far West as Ontario myself. If you do.... come in the summer. It's cold and snowy as ballz
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Dec 18, 2012 13:51:10 GMT -5
Been using Target Finder a bit lately. I can buy it being OP. According to the Elite website stats I'm getting a 3.66 KDR while using it. Not sure how much I trust the accuracy of Elite's numbers, but maybe it's not that far off because of how the TF pushes you towards tactical loitering.
I have to disagree about not seeing through walls. I get weird red diamonds through walls practically every game. They kind of flash quickly and go away, but I've gotten kills and hitmarkers out of them.
TF turns the MK48 from a barely usable disappointment to a nearly unstoppable killing machine.
MW3 Marksman was good, but it didn't put the red right where you needed to fire, you still had to put a little effort into shooting your target. And the plague of Assassin users didn't help. IMO most of the other perks in that tier were must haves as well. SitRep? Steady Aim? Stalker? Ninja? Wasn't unusual for me to run Hardline in slot 2 and then Specialist with nothing but stuff from slot 3.
One thing is for damned sure. If I'm ever over at a buddy's playing some split screen, There is zero chance I'm using anything but the Target Finder.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 18, 2012 14:15:10 GMT -5
I can't see how TF pushes you to tactical loitering... it pushes me to move around more to clear out campers and head glitchers myself...
I've personally not had the TF see through walls and objects like MM did for me... yet.
MK48 is fine with and without the TF, as long as you use it right.
T3 perks in MW3 were situational at best. SitRep and Ninja were only if you wanted to sound whore. Steady Aim I only found really useful on SMGs and Shotguns. T3 was basically "do I pick Stalker or MM?"
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 18, 2012 15:09:51 GMT -5
It only works when ADSed & has tunnel vision.
Thats not going to end very well when playing aggressive.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 18, 2012 15:16:00 GMT -5
It only works when ADSed & has tunnel vision. Thats not going to end very well when playing aggressive. I guess it won't if your ADS button is stuck and you don't have Stock...
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Post by Ishbane on Dec 18, 2012 15:59:03 GMT -5
Been using it on my M27 lately. Every time i enter an open area i take cover, ads, sweep across and move on.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 18, 2012 16:47:31 GMT -5
Marksman isnt half as good as Target Finder, and it was usually countered as well. TF is just so stupid as the only people it helps are either extreme campers or awful players who cant aim... [usually the same thing anyway] that could apply to any device being used in this game. Should we call RD stupid, as it helps people aim? Call Quickdraw stupid, as it helps people who cant' get their sights up? How about silencer, is that stupid? As it helps people who can't remain hidden?
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 18, 2012 17:00:57 GMT -5
It only works when ADSed & has tunnel vision. Thats not going to end very well when playing aggressive. I guess it won't if your ADS button is stuck and you don't have Stock... I dont get it... Maybe it is good for rushing... I've just yet to see it used well by anyone that way. It's absolutely better for tactical loitering though.
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GoHarvard
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Post by GoHarvard on Dec 18, 2012 19:35:43 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that TF also reduces recoil. You would think it would be the opposite for the sake of balance.
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Post by RageHulkSmash on Dec 18, 2012 20:48:36 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that TF also reduces recoil. You would think it would be the opposite for the sake of balance. He bases that off of the ingame charts and minimal wall shooting. Until proven wrong from decrypted data files, I'll assume that those sights don't affect recoil.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Dec 18, 2012 21:41:35 GMT -5
I can't see how TF pushes you to tactical loitering... it pushes me to move around more to clear out campers and Mind Bulletsers myself... I've personally not had the TF see through walls and objects like MM did for me... yet. MK48 is fine with and without the TF, as long as you use it right. The target finder simplifies aiming to the point that it's a huge difference. It's the only sight where I can literally look away from the crosshairs and still track/kill my current target in my peripheral vision while I'm evaluating my next victim(s). Maybe you can explain to me how I'm not using it right? Is it because I don't camp a single hallway where everyone is going to enter my vision in the more or less in the same are of vision and thus are extremely easy to acquire? From a nice wide overwatch position I don't see any other sight being competitive. [/quote] Well, SitRep was one of the perks to counter claymores, great for hunting down campers. If you want to completely discount audio as being for 'sound whores' only, I doubt I can change your mind, but I strongly disagree. Audio is a big part of the game. Ninja was more about countering 'sound whores' than anything. If you wanted to sound whore the enemy why wouldn't you make their footsteps louder and you and your teammates quieter to yourself? Steady Aim was fantastic... only for SMGs? Maybe. But as much as people say SMGs are dominant in BO2, I think that was much more the case in MW3. Sure, it was only really the MP7 and the PP90M1, but nothing in BO2 can really compete with those two. The MP7 no recoil mode gives you a fighting chance flying around any corner against any headglitcher, and PP90M1 w/ rapid fire, silencer, and steady aim was at least as good as anything the Skorpion EVO can pull off.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 8:03:01 GMT -5
I guess it won't if your ADS button is stuck and you don't have Stock... I dont get it... Maybe it is good for rushing... I've just yet to see it used well by anyone that way. It's absolutely better for tactical loitering though. Again, I fail to see the big difference it does for tactical loitering... 1) See moving target with a red diamond (doesn't have CB): you would have seen them moving anyways unless they were completely in the shadows (barely any place that isn't a tactical loitering spot). 2) See non moving target with a red diamond (doesn't have CB): most likely another camper, which is what the TF is good against. 3) See moving target by red crosshairs (has CB): As with #1, you probably would have seen them without this because of the movement. 4) See non moving target by red crosshairs (has CB): As with #2, most likely another camper. For Rusher VS Camper, assuming neither has CB, the Camper would see the Rusher regardless because of the movement, but the Rusher wouldn't see the Camper (as they are most likely using Mind Bullets, in a dark corner or barely visible otherwise) until it's too late. For Rusher VS Rusher, both rushers would see each other fine, as both would be moving and probably running into each other anyways. For Camper VS Camper, without TF or CB, they would only see each other if they do something to make themselves seen (smoke trail, UAV, unsilenced shot, etc) or are in a non head-glitch/dark spot. If neither have CB and one has TF, the person with TF will spot the other camper first. So, VS Rushers the TF only helps slightly, while VS Campers it actually gives you a chance. So... again, please tell me how the Target Finder is the perfect "Camper Sight" and horrible for a Rusher that's trying to spot and avoid/kill Campers? EDIT: Pegasus Actual: Dual Band, but anyways... Sights in general have been situational at best. -RDS/Reflex help when the Irons are horrible, but aren't really needed. -ACOG helps for longer sights and is good when you have a nice medium-long range gun with a close range alternative. -Variable Zoom and Hybrid are good for when you want to have both close range and long range sights available to you for a weapon that does well at all ranges. -Thermal has been good against people that didn't have the counter (Ghost/Assassin for BO1/MW3), but has usually still had an issue distinguishing them. The Thermal in BO2 is a lot better and helps a lot against non-CB users. There hasn't really been a "great" or a "must have" sight before because all they've ever done (except Thermal) is change the zoom. The Thermal has always helped highlight targets, but was never really used/liked because of the fact that it was still hard and annoying seeing and tracking targets, the increased ADS time and the risk of running into Ghost/Assassin users (which were very high in BO1/MW3 for obvious reasons). In BO2, not many people are running the counter perk to TF/DB because it's not an all-in-one stealth perk anymore and is a counter for a specific section of thing (Cold Blooded). Does this help the effectiveness of the Target Finder? Yes. Does it also help the Dual-Band for the weapons that can use it? Yes. Does the lack of people using Cold-Blooded make the Target Finder OP all of a sudden? No. If people hate TF so much, use Cold-Blooded. No one uses Hard-Wired, Fast Hands isn't really needed unless you spam equipment or have an Overkill class, Scavenger isn't really needed unless you spam equipment / "waste" bullets / do amazingly well and run out of ammo during long streaks, and Toughness is only needed on precision weapons where you expect to take bullets. Nothing stopping you from having Cold-Blooded alone or greeded with another T2 perk...
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 19, 2012 10:22:15 GMT -5
Im not following your argument here.
Rushers dont go out in the open to engage unless they're stupid.
So from a campers perspective, you can easily see whatever cover theyre behind if they're engaging you [which wouldnt make sense, as nothing can beat a TF LMG].
otherwise the TF allows you to sit back and pay minimal attention and shoot at all the red diamonds. Muzzle flash and recoil and much easier to deal with because... the diamond is pretty clear. Snipers can't take cover and try to shoot from a distance as there's a massive diamond around them.
What downsides are there?
For a rusher your engagements should be close enough that any enemies are obvious. Then you have a big bulky sight blocking your sight as you ADS walk.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 10:45:16 GMT -5
Rushers dont go out in the open to engage unless they're stupid. There are very few travel routes in all the maps that are completely covered and safe unless you run into someone head on or someone is behind you (only really the bottom of Hijacked comes to mind). In almost any place where you move around, there will be Mind Bullets spots or some long enough sight line to it. So from a campers perspective, you can easily see whatever cover theyre behind if they're engaging you [which wouldnt make sense, as nothing can beat a TF LMG]. Sniper Rifle... but again, I'm being technical here. If someone is behind cover, they aren't really a rusher or run and gun person now, are they? If they stay there long enough, what are they called? otherwise the TF allows you to sit back and pay minimal attention and shoot at all the red diamonds. Muzzle flash and recoil and much easier to deal with because... the diamond is pretty clear. Snipers can't take cover and try to shoot from a distance as there's a massive diamond around them.Well, again, easy IF THE PERSON IS NOT USING COLD BLOODED. Also, to the part in Bold above: this is exactly the reason the attachment is in the game, so why is this a problem or why does this make it OP? Dual Band/Thermal has done the same in the past, so has Marksman. What downsides are there? For a rusher: bad peripheral vision and I'm guessing either increased ADS time or higher recoil... For a camper: Nothing. What advantages are there? For a rusher: An easy way to spot campers and Mind Bulletsers with only slightly more zoom then Reflex or Irons. For a camper: Makes spotting anyone moving minimally easier and makes counter-tactical loitering easier. So, again, what turns tactical loitering from a "I can't see ANYONE!" affair into the "OMG, IT AIMS ITSELF!!" effect that everyone seems to think the TF does, especially when it's obvious that it only helps: 1) spot moving targets easier (NOTE: you can still use your eyes to see them normally), and 2) spot campers and Mind Bulletsers... which is the point of the attachment and which is not OP at all. For a rusher your engagements should be close enough that any enemies are obvious. Then you have a big bulky sight blocking your sight as you ADS walk. Or, you ADS to check common Mind Bullets / camp spots and move on? Unless you run into the open, you shouldn't be exposed too long to need to ADS all the time on those spots. Once again, I fail to see how the TF is OP and how it's a big help for campers and useless for countering campers...
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 19, 2012 10:54:00 GMT -5
I know what you're saying MMarth, but using the TF does push you to tactical loitering.
1. Yes, I know that the DBand does virtually the same thing. But the DB is also unlocked a lot later than the TFinder. So yes, one can do the same thing with the DB... just a lot later.
2. It pushes one to tactical loitering, because all one has to do is find a perch (say, the bed room of overlooking the pool in Raid) protect the staircase... ADS and move around waiting for your sights to turn red (either by diamond or crosshairs) Granted, after 4/5/6 kills, the opposition tends to catch on pretty quick, but my point remains the same
3. From personal experience, rushing with the TF isn't as good as it cuts off a lot of perepheral vision. It does do a good job of finding the enemy initally and then you run like hell to track them down though... but it's still a pain
Again, the TF isn't superduper-assassin-pro-from-MW3-esque overpowered.... but slightly.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 11:35:59 GMT -5
It's slightly different than Marksman. A side grade (better because of the red crosshair, but worse since it can't be used with other sights, has bad peripheral vision and only works ADS).
1) I know it's unlocked later and only on SRs and LMGs, but it still does the same thing. If DB is fine because it's unlocked later, move the TF to be unlocked a level or two later then.
2) Again, DB does the same and the people you spot with it you'd spot fine without it unless they were tactical loitering as well. I never said it doesn't help, I'm just not seeing how it pushes to being OP. Only people that it makes a big difference against is head glitchers... which is the point of the attachment and not what I find OP in the slightest.
3) I've never found it to be that big of a deal on the weapons I've used it with so far (even the QBB while rushing).
It's as OP as Marksman was... which, in my eyes, is not.
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