markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 19, 2012 11:57:38 GMT -5
It's slightly different than Marksman. A side grade (better because of the red crosshair, but worse since it can't be used with other sights, has bad peripheral vision and only works ADS). 1) I know it's unlocked later and only on SRs and LMGs, but it still does the same thing. If DB is fine because it's unlocked later, move the TF to be unlocked a level or two later then. 2) Again, DB does the same and the people you spot with it you'd spot fine without it unless they were tactical loitering as well. I never said it doesn't help, I'm just not seeing how it pushes to being OP. Only people that it makes a big difference against is Mind Bulletsers... which is the point of the attachment and not what I find OP in the slightest. 3) I've never found it to be that big of a deal on the weapons I've used it with so far (even the QBB while rushing). It's as OP as Marksman was... which, in my eyes, is not. I think we're argueeing (arguing about agreeing) except you think it isn't and I think it slightly is.... kinda like spicy food... some may try some and say it's not hot at all, some may $hit themselves it's so spicy for them.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 12:07:12 GMT -5
Well, we seem to agree that:
1) I only slightly helps pointing out people on the move (unless at extreme ranges) 2) It's great against campers and head glitchers that don't have Cold Blooded 3) It has a very easy counter that isn't purely to counter the TF 4) The DB, though limited in weapon class and unlocked later, is fine as it is currently (which is generally the same as the TF, but with easier highlighting and lacking the direct aim red crosshairs) 5) It's probably the best sight to use... because the other sights simple increase zoom while this one is the conversion of a perk to an attachment (like Stalker, Quickdraw, Steady Aim, etc...)
Do you think the TF would be less OP if one of the following happened? A) It loses the actual sight portion of it (Highlights targets with red diamonds, but with Irons instead of a sight) and gains the ability to be combined with other sights (same as Marksman, basically)
B) Loses the red crosshairs when directly aiming at a Cold Blooded target.
C) Was unlocked 2-3 levels later? (10 instead of 7 for LMGs, 11 instead of 8 for ARs and 14 instead of 11 for SMGs)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 19, 2012 12:32:59 GMT -5
C is a good option B might work A... no..... that's crazy talk
But really, making a slight delay in the red crosshairs/diamond of say, .3 or .5 of a second and making it a later level unlock, is all it needs.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 19, 2012 12:44:27 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that TF also reduces recoil. You would think it would be the opposite for the sake of balance. This youtube hero, he's putting up videos showing the TF and MM scanner, him using it......while playing the bots on retard mode. Really now? Come on. What type of loser writes to this guy to show off these guns in action, and is happy with watching someone play in retard mode? You don't need to watch videos to test this...just go try out weapons yourself in the bot/retard mode.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Dec 19, 2012 12:45:23 GMT -5
Target finder viewkick gave me cancer.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 19, 2012 12:53:25 GMT -5
This youtube hero, he's putting up videos showing the TF and MM scanner, him using it......while playing the bots on retard mode. Really now? Come on. What type of loser writes to this guy to show off these guns in action, and is happy with watching someone play in retard mode? You don't need to watch videos to test this...just go try out weapons yourself in the bot/retard mode. But...... but....... but.... how can I go 52-3 outnumbered 4 to 1.... if I don't go full bot retard mode? I can't do it against real people!!!!! My epeen........ my precious precious epeen
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Dec 19, 2012 12:54:29 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that TF also reduces recoil. You would think it would be the opposite for the sake of balance. This youtube hero, he's putting up videos showing the TF and MM scanner, him using it......while playing the bots on retard mode. Really now? Come on. What type of loser writes to this guy to show off these guns in action, and is happy with watching someone play in retard mode? You don't need to watch videos to test this...just go try out weapons yourself in the bot/retard mode. Going into FFA would propably place you against adversaries not much better then the ones in recruit level combat training.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 13:40:18 GMT -5
C is a good option B might work A... no..... that's crazy talk But really, making a slight delay in the red crosshairs/diamond of say, .3 or .5 of a second and making it a later level unlock, is all it needs. Why is A crazy talk? It would be an overall nerf to TF. Irons would nerf the slight zoom that it gave and would make CB completely immune from it. It would make it exactly like Marksman in the effect that you can use it with a sight (EG: Hybrid or Variable Zoom), but you have get both attachments for it. Also, what exactly do you mean by delay? Delay in the appearance of it (takes 0.3s - 0.5s for the diamond to appear over a new target) or a kind of lag (where it's never directly on the target)? Also, regardless of which one, how would that make it "fair", it would just render it a lot worse. 0.5s might not seem like much, but that's enough time for a Head Glitcher to pop over their box, aim at you and potentially fire their first shot before you even know they are there... which, again, defeats the whole point of the attachment. Options A or B would be enough to "balance" if you really think it's OP... because I honestly wouldn't care if those were made as that wouldn't affect me at all. C is a buff and nerf at the same time, depending on how you see it. Again, the attachment doing what it's supposed to do and what it's done in the past (EG: Marksman, Thermal) does not make it OP, and nerfing that makes the attachment near useless.
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hyperion
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Post by hyperion on Dec 19, 2012 13:41:19 GMT -5
My problem with TF is that in the right situations you can almost glitch through walls and see people coming. Even if its only for a quick second its a heads up to who is around you.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 14:13:03 GMT -5
My problem with TF is that in the right situations you can almost glitch through walls and see people coming. Even if its only for a quick second its a heads up to who is around you. Then that's an issue with the glitching through walls... not with the TF itself.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 19, 2012 14:14:12 GMT -5
Not to mention there is another optic that actually does see people through walls...
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 14:16:37 GMT -5
^ Stationary targets and can't be combined with FMJ.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 19, 2012 14:31:54 GMT -5
^ Stationary targets and can't be combined with FMJ. Slow moving targets also, and only retards use FMJ. If seeing people through walls occasionally was OP, the MMS would be OP. TF picks people up through walls less than the MSS, it's a non-issue.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 14:34:47 GMT -5
^ Stationary targets and can't be combined with FMJ. Slow moving targets also, and only retards use FMJ. If seeing people through walls occasionally was OP, the MMS would be OP. TF picks people up through walls less than the MSS, it's a non-issue. ^ This is true.
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GoHarvard
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Post by GoHarvard on Dec 19, 2012 15:03:23 GMT -5
My problem with TF is that in the right situations you can almost glitch through walls and see people coming. Even if its only for a quick second its a heads up to who is around you. Then that's an issue with the glitching through walls... not with the TF itself. ....but the TF is what's exploiting that glitch, at least more so than any other sight.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 19, 2012 15:07:43 GMT -5
Then that's an issue with the glitching through walls... not with the TF itself. ....but the TF is what's exploiting that glitch, at least more so than any other sight.If I take a Knife and stab someone in the face, it's the Knife's fault! Destroy all Knives and we'll all be safe!
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 19, 2012 15:25:55 GMT -5
Are we talking about solid walls or walls with cracks in them that you can actually see through?
For example, the 2 storey store right beside the mechancs shop/barn? Because that one, there are actual gaps in the boarded up wood that you can shoot through, and be shot through.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 19, 2012 16:04:21 GMT -5
There are very few travel routes in all the maps that are completely covered and safe unless you run into someone head on or someone is behind you (only really the bottom of Hijacked comes to mind). In almost any place where you move around, there will be Mind Bullets spots or some long enough sight line to it. Of course not. Thats why smart rushers do better. Only engage when the situation favors you. Sniper Rifle... but again, I'm being technical here. How so? Do you see a sniper rifle from a distance, or a sniper? When I play, I tend to look for the human beings holding the weapons, not the rifles. If someone is behind cover, they aren't really a rusher or run and gun person now, are they? If they stay there long enough, what are they called? Who said anything about staying there? Is someone a camper for stopping to shoot someone? No. Is someone a camper for finding a nice little spot and staying there for a duration longer than necessary? Yes. Well, again, easy IF THE PERSON IS NOT USING COLD BLOODED. I think I've seen 2 people kill me who have used CB. Also, to the part in Bold above: this is exactly the reason the attachment is in the game, so why is this a problem or why does this make it OP? Dual Band/Thermal has done the same in the past, so has Marksman. Because the counter perks were... useful? Is it okay if bouncing betties blow the whole map up, but theres a counter perk that makes it do 0 damage? Yeah. That's rock paper scissors. Its Foxtrotting stupid and the death of this game. Or, you ADS to check common Mind Bullets / camp spots and move on? Unless you run into the open, you shouldn't be exposed too long to need to ADS all the time on those spots. So... the attachment is useless for rushers? Thank you for confirming that. You seem to conveniently forget that if someone is in a use mind bullets or a distance away, SMGs dont perform very well. My problem with TF is that in the right situations you can almost glitch through walls and see people coming. Even if its only for a quick second its a heads up to who is around you. Then that's an issue with the glitching through walls... not with the TF itself. This argument reminds me of TrialStarDipshit and last stand. Last stand was primarily annoying to people because of getting killed as they are immune, and the moron said its OK, because its only lag's fault. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
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Robospy
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Post by Robospy on Dec 19, 2012 16:44:02 GMT -5
Only 2 people killing you who have cold-blooded? I get about 2 enemies per game that have cold-blooded, I notice because it's a bitch to hit cold-blooded users when you have the Dual Band scope.
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Post by bm01 on Dec 20, 2012 2:52:44 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between PC and consoles here again. On PC, TF (and MMS by the way) is almost never used, but apparently it is on console. Why is that? Maybe the low resolution on console makes people harder to see (specially when only their head is visible)? Maybe if affects your aim assist? Putting red diamond around players is in my opinion, as a PC player, not really useful, and doesn't counterbalance the fact that you lose all your "peripheral vision".
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 20, 2012 8:03:45 GMT -5
Robospy: I get at least 1 per game usually, but that depends on the map. Certain ones I'll have 4, others I'll have none. bm01: That might be the case and the fact that, in general, I can see sights being less useful on PC. If you are going to use a sight, Target Finder is probably the best with the exception of specific cases. Of course not. Thats why smart rushers do better. Only engage when the situation favors you. Well, obviously you'll only engage in situations that favor you if you can control it. But let me ask you this: How can you be sure (excluding UAV/VSAT) that the path you are about to turn into is not going to have a camper or head glitcher there? MMS through the wall if they aren't moving or turn with TF/DB to be able to see them and either kill them to duck back to cover for an alternate path. Also, as fun as it is to say "only move when it's to your advantage", if you are playing an objective game like Domination, there's a big risk-reward for getting to a location quickly. Being able to check a short path of medium danger, see that it's clear and run through it instead of a long safe path can make a big difference. How so? Do you see a sniper rifle from a distance, or a sniper? When I play, I tend to look for the human beings holding the weapons, not the rifles. Thanks for missing the point. Here, let me help: as nothing can beat a TF LMG A Sniper Rifle beats a TF LMG. Who said anything about staying there? Is someone a camper for stopping to shoot someone? No. Is someone a camper for finding a nice little spot and staying there for a duration longer than necessary? Yes. Fine, but if you are rushing and stop to shoot at someone, you have to know that there's someone there. If you don't, you'll stop, have a look around, not see anyone (because TF is bad for rushers, right?) and keep running while the camper, with or without TF, will be readying their aim to kill you. I think I've seen 2 people kill me who have used CB. Congrats I guess. If people notice you and others using TF and don't bother using the counter, their loss. Because the counter perks were... useful? Is it okay if bouncing betties blow the whole map up, but theres a counter perk that makes it do 0 damage? Yeah. That's rock paper scissors. Its Foxtrotting stupid and the death of this game. Well, if you consider the game making targets slightly better to spot the same as a nuke, that's a problem on its own. The Silencer must be OP then, because there are no perks to counter its effects and not being on the radar is a huge deal. So... the attachment is useless for rushers? Thank you for confirming that. You seem to conveniently forget that if someone is in a use mind bullets or a distance away, SMGs dont perform very well. It's not useless for rushers, as I've explained before if you would read. It's possible to rush with the TF without being ADS all game. This argument reminds me of TrialStarDipdoo-doo and last stand. Last stand was primarily annoying to people because of getting killed as they are immune, and the wacky guy said its OK, because its only lag's fault. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. You know the difference though? Well, probably not, but I'll say it anyways: -Lag is something that can't be easily and quickly fixed, if it can be fixed at all. -A location where your vision can glitch to see through the wall can be fixed in a variety of different ways with very little effort. I'd go into more detail, but I don't see the point, as you'll either not get it or ignore it.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 20, 2012 11:31:12 GMT -5
Robospy:
Of course not. Thats why smart rushers do better. Only engage when the situation favors you. Well, obviously you'll only engage in situations that favor you if you can control it. But let me ask you this: How can you be sure (excluding UAV/VSAT) that the path you are about to turn into is not going to have a camper or Mind Bulletser there? MMS through the wall if they aren't moving or turn with TF/DB to be able to see them and either kill them to duck back to cover for an alternate path. You dont need a target finder to help you check the 1 or 2 headglitches that are going to be around most corners. You'd be better off walking in with a regular sight, or MMS, and getting a clear view of everything and then deciding what to do. Also, as fun as it is to say "only move when it's to your advantage", if you are playing an objective game like Domination, there's a big risk-reward for getting to a location quickly. Being able to check a short path of medium danger, see that it's clear and run through it instead of a long safe path can make a big difference. A long safe path? Those dont really exist this time around, but either way - that's a waste of time. There's always going to be some camper somewhere. You dont need the TF to tell you that. If you're playing the objective and dont have some other reason to stay alive [1 away from swarm or something that will win the game] you're going to push anyway. Thanks for missing the point. Here, let me help: A Sniper Rifle beats a TF LMG. Extremely clear post earlier. And thats false anyway. So many things are working against the sniper its not even funny. They have to instantly spot, ADS, and get accurate aim on a head that could be strafing or moving from one thing of cover to another while dealing with DVK... and the LMG user just holds the trigger. None of them have recoil aside from the HAMR. Fine, but if you are rushing and stop to shoot at someone, you have to know that there's someone there. If you don't, you'll stop, have a look around, not see anyone (because TF is bad for rushers, right?) and keep running while the camper, with or without TF, will be readying their aim to kill you. And.. the TF saves you how? It almost reads like you're trying to say that a camper is actually not visible without the TF in this case... Congrats I guess. If people notice you and others using TF and don't bother using the counter, their loss. Except the TF still helps against CB users. Well, if you consider the game making targets slightly better to spot the same as a nuke, that's a problem on its own. The Silencer must be OP then, because there are no perks to counter its effects and not being on the radar is a huge deal. Not even remotely similar. I expanded on the idea of rock paper scissors balance. It shouldnt be hard to understand. It's not useless for rushers, as I've explained before if you would read. It's possible to rush with the TF without being ADS all game. Except that in the few cases it might help, you could be using an attachment like Ex Mags, Fast Mags, Long Barrel, Stock, or MMS... which will be far, far more useful. You know the difference though? Well, probably not, but I'll say it anyways: -Lag is something that can't be easily and quickly fixed, if it can be fixed at all. -A location where your vision can glitch to see through the wall can be fixed in a variety of different ways with very little effort. I'd go into more detail, but I don't see the point, as you'll either not get it or ignore it. I doubt its as easy as you say or it wouldnt be that way in the first place. Same thing for aim assist thru terrain and some objects.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 20, 2012 12:48:17 GMT -5
You dont need a target finder to help you check the 1 or 2 use mind bulletses that are going to be around most corners. You'd be better off walking in with a regular sight, or MMS, and getting a clear view of everything and then deciding what to do. // A long safe path? Those dont really exist this time around, but either way - that's a waste of time. There's always going to be some camper somewhere. You dont need the TF to tell you that. If you're playing the objective and dont have some other reason to stay alive [1 away from swarm or something that will win the game] you're going to push anyway. // And.. the TF saves you how? It almost reads like you're trying to say that a camper is actually not visible without the TF in this case... Have you ever tried to spot and flush out someone in a head glitch spot? I must have terrible vision to not be able to spot shadows in the darkness or to spot the upper few pixels of someone's head poking over a box while turning a corner before they notice me and start shooting. The whole point of head glitch spots is that you usually can't tell someone's there unless you have a high zoom sight, TF/BD or are being shot at by them. Same thing for dark corners. TF helps you spot people much faster in these cases. Extremely clear post earlier. And thats false anyway. So many things are working against the sniper its not even funny. They have to instantly spot, ADS, and get accurate aim on a head that could be strafing or moving from one thing of cover to another while dealing with DVK... and the LMG user just holds the trigger. None of them have recoil aside from the HAMR. Don't need a headshot guaranteed for a kill: they can get the upper chest or fire multiple times to kill as well. HAMR and QBB have enough recoil for long range encounters. Besides, both have to deal with DVK. Yes, LMG has 75-100 bullets, but spending 40 bullets to kill a Sniper is hardly considered good or efficient unless you were suppressing the area and got a kill randomly. Except the TF still helps against CB users. Only when aiming directly at them... Besides, I already said that this feature could easily be removed and it wouldn't affect anything. Not even remotely similar. I expanded on the idea of rock paper scissors balance. It shouldnt be hard to understand. Okay, I've only been playing since BO, but when did this RPS concept get added in CoD? Looking at past games, I see things countering other things in a RPS sense being a staple since at least CoD4 and rarely ever even head CoD1-CoD3 being mentioned, let alone people actually liking them more. Except that in the few cases it might help, you could be using an attachment like Ex Mags, Fast Mags, Long Barrel, Stock, or MMS... which will be far, far more useful. MMS is as situational as the TF and Stock depends on the weapon. If can control encounters to avoid campers and head glitchers, you can control them to not need Long Barrel, Fast Mags or Ex Mags as well. I doubt its as easy as you say or it wouldnt be that way in the first place. Same thing for aim assist thru terrain and some objects. Well: 1) If it's a glitch where the player's collision for the view gets past the terrain or object and let's them see beyond it, a simple fix of a secondary texture behind the fix would stop it. 2) If it's a glitch where a tear is seen in the texture due to bad rendering or other reason, which should be easily found if on console because of the limited hardware/driver combinations for rendering, it's probably something specific to that object that needs to be looked at and modified. If it's on PC, then that's a little more complicated as bad drives for the video card can always cause bad screen tears. 3) If it's a small crack in a wall or the part of an object that's see through: it's meant to be like that and not an issue. 4) If it's a small piece of scenary that blocks vision and nothing else and you think it's an issue they could probably fix it my modifying the function that checks for whether a certain object or piece of terrain properly blocks the view for Marksman. EG: If you spawn on the B-C side in Village on MW3, you can hop on a car on the way to C DOM. If you have Marksman, it can pick up people near A DOM that are tactical loitering on the high ledge... through leaves of a tree. It's basically impossible to actually see people to shoot unless you have Marksman and it's one of the best reasons why Marksman was amazing on some maps.
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Post by Ishbane on Dec 20, 2012 14:28:12 GMT -5
Last stand was primarily annoying to people because of getting killed as they are immune, and the wacky guy said its OK, because its only lag's fault. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. What, the stealth clown?
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Post by bobo on Dec 21, 2012 2:54:31 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between PC and consoles here again. On PC, TF (and MMS by the way) is almost never used, but apparently it is on console. Why is that? Maybe the low resolution on console makes people harder to see (specially when only their head is visible)? Maybe if affects your aim assist? Putting red diamond around players is in my opinion, as a PC player, not really useful, and doesn't counterbalance the fact that you lose all your "peripheral vision". I can only speak from the console perspective, but I've always found spotting enemies on COD games are harder than any other shooter I play. Players a lot of time don't "pop" on the screen. The TF makes them pop, especially over longer site lines. Not only do I initially see the enemy better, I track them better with the TF. I used it a bit to basically see what the OP hype was about, and I ended up agreeing that it is a bit OP, although it doesn't really bother me too much. I guess I could see added recoil as a possible slight nerf to it that may be warranted.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 21, 2012 8:45:03 GMT -5
Doesn't the TF, Hybrid and DB already get a recoil increase and ADS time increase like in the previous games?
Again, only thing I'd change from its current version is to remove the red crosshairs when directly aiming at a Cold Blooded target. Past that, the TF is fine.
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hyperion
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Post by hyperion on Dec 21, 2012 11:44:11 GMT -5
Playing around with optics last night (sorry if this is off topic) and found out you cant equip the hybrid sight + select fire on the SMR. I wonder why that is.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Dec 21, 2012 12:07:19 GMT -5
Playing around with optics last night (sorry if this is off topic) and found out you cant equip the hybrid sight + select fire on the SMR. I wonder why that is. Hypothetically (not saying this is the reason, but) I read somewhere about not being able to select 2 selectables/switchables. Not on this site, but around the interwebz..... because you can switch between 2 fire modes and 2 optic modes, that's my guess. Do they use the same button to switch? That might be another reason.
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hyperion
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Post by hyperion on Dec 21, 2012 12:13:47 GMT -5
Playing around with optics last night (sorry if this is off topic) and found out you cant equip the hybrid sight + select fire on the SMR. I wonder why that is. Hypothetically (not saying this is the reason, but) I read somewhere about not being able to select 2 selectables/switchables. Not on this site, but around the interwebz..... because you can switch between 2 fire modes and 2 optic modes, that's my guess. Do they use the same button to switch? That might be another reason. No, the select fire is on the directional pad (xbox) and the optic switch is on the analog stick so they dont conflict.
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Post by mastermarth on Dec 21, 2012 12:23:24 GMT -5
My guess is that they didn't want to make things too much of a mix of both close and long range.
It would be interesting to have a special interaction that would allow you to have both and to have both switch with the same button. Reflex = Auto, ACOG = Burst/Semi. If I ADS with Reflex and swap to ACOG, the gun goes from Auto to Burst/Semi as well.
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