wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Dec 5, 2012 17:29:48 GMT -5
(EDIT: one premise that was in my head when I wrote the OP but forgot to mention is that there is an explicit assumption that the player will pick up a good non-naked primary from the ground when opportunity presents itself)
Noise has been made by the community that argues "pistols are OP", and after some extended usage of Tac45 and B23R I agree on the ground that:
"when situation calls for a naked weapon, pistol can be a better option than any primary".
Let's look at the 2 popular pistol choices that are unlocked reasonably early:
1) Tac 45 unlock level: 4 Min SK: 2 (TTK ~= 133 ms) Max SK: 6 Max SK with 1.4 Headshot multiplier (for killing head-glichers): 4 ADS time: 0.13 (SMG: 0.22, AR >=0.25, LMG ~0.47, SR ~ 0.4) Movement speed: 100%
2) B23R unlock level: 19 Min SK: 3 = 1 - 2 bursts (TTK ~= 133 ms) Max SK: 6 = 2 - 3 bursts Min SK with 1.4 headshot multiplier: 2 (can be 1 HS and 1 non-HS) = high probability 1 burst kill Max SK with 1.4 Headshot multiplier: 4 = high probability 2 burst kill ADS time: 0.13 (SMG: 0.22, AR >=0.25, LMG ~0.47, SR ~ 0.4) Movement speed: 100%
This means that you should consider pistols when
1) you have little room for weapons in your loadout (e.g.: loadout with 6 perks) and you need a weapon with <=1 attachment;
2) your primary has major weaknesses (e.g.: SR, LMG) that make you think about Overkill (consider pistol first)
Thoughts?
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Post by kirbyderby on Dec 5, 2012 17:42:38 GMT -5
The main benefit to having a pistol in Blops1/2 is quick drop and fast movement speed with a slow primary. If the class you're making benefits from either of those, then they're worth considering. If you're only using one weapon, then there isn't much to lose by just having an AR or SMG.
1) A loadout with 6 perks would probably benefit from a more versatile weapon. or a tomahawk for lulz
2) Agreed, unless you are also using fast hands.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 5, 2012 17:43:52 GMT -5
You got this one already: this point is entirely and wholly contingent on what your primary is. All the pistols are designed for CQC and thus the answer is, well, no, a naked CQC primary is usually better (with the exception that some of the pistols are better than SMGs at point blank).
So Overkill can well be easily justified for use with weapons that are already competent in CQC, but the Raffica or the KAP should be more than sufficient as a backup for snipers and LMGs. (Something to keep in mind is that LMGs possess incredibly tight hip spread when prone: just 4 degrees (2.2 with a laser). With the faster ones, dropshotting may be viable in lieu of a sidearm.)
With my knife builds (i.e. six perks), I did try spawning with a naked sniper. Between the perks and the knife, you're golden for CQC so why not use a weapon at the range you're weakest? (In practice, I find that using Scavenger and any tactical is a far better idea provided that you can steal someone's gun. With three attachments. On tight maps like Hijacked, it's very easy to guarantee efficacy of the knife and steal anyone’s anything.)
You didn't mention the KAP due to its later unlock, which is a shame, as it is absurdly powerful.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Dec 5, 2012 18:03:26 GMT -5
The main benefit to having a pistol in Blops1/2 is quick drop and fast movement speed with a slow primary. If the class you're making benefits from either of those, then they're worth considering. If you're only using one weapon, then there isn't much to lose by just having an AR or SMG. 1) A loadout with 6 perks would probably benefit from a more versatile weapon. I omitted a very important detail for this discussion, picking up weapons from the ground. It is super easy to find SMGs and ARs with 2 attachments on the ground. A 6-perk-pistol loadout can easily turn itself into a 13 point class by doing so. Had pistols been weak like in MW3, this would be too big of a gamble to risk. In BO2 however, the pistols are amazingly strong (as secondary) for extended use, making this option quite attractive. Moreover, pistols have built-in fast swap. If you are using a primary on this 6 perk class, you won't get as good swap time unless you put Fast Hands on. Furthermore: Let's compare this with a 6-perk-SMG-class (not to mention other primary weapon classes, which do not work well with no attachments except for SR). Unless you are using Skorpion or Chicom, the pistols trump naked SMGs for CQC, and not too much weaker for a little bit outside of CQC. 6-perk-SR-class is actually decent. SR does not scream for attachments, and it works well with any non-SR weapons from the ground.
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Post by corpsecreate on Dec 5, 2012 18:03:49 GMT -5
Has anyone played around with Dual Wield KAPs? I wonder how effective they are.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Dec 5, 2012 18:12:20 GMT -5
Has anyone played around with Dual Wield KAPs? I wonder how effective they are. Note that this is available in the "Scout Recon" default class, so you don't have to grind anything to use it until you need the 10th custom loadout slots.
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Dec 5, 2012 18:58:15 GMT -5
Kaps are great in general, I put them on lmgs and snipers and have a better kd ratio with them than most other weapons
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Post by anthraxx on Dec 5, 2012 19:05:00 GMT -5
Kap 40 imo is the best pistol. It has a great TTK in close range, you'll definitely outgun AR's at this distance and even some SMG's.
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Post by theuberelite on Dec 5, 2012 19:10:42 GMT -5
Dual KAPs are alright but a single KAP with a laser sight does the job way better.
One of the big reasons I like to use pistols is because I hate that when you don't and you are holding your primary, when you pick up a weapon it replaces your combat knife. If I run out of ammo with my primary, I have 2 options: 1. Switch to pistol 2. Pick up weapon, "YY" aka switch weapons twice, and immediately start firing with picked up gun.
Number 2 is actually the better option for me if the gun is available and I think would even beat switching to a pistol with fast hands provided you are standing on the gun. But again, it's situational, and "YY"ing is very hard to do with Fast Hands.
I actually plan on doing a video on YYing, Fast Hands, and Dexterity and their advantages. Dexterity/Fast Hands both really do a lot of things that someone whos experienced with the advantages of "YY"ing do (which are all generally high level PC Promod players)
To clarify by YY'ing I'm referring to pressing weapon switch twice very quickly.
As for the pistols being OP, I dunno. They're definitely good though. I'll look at the stats specifically and probably edit this. EDIT: Might be worth noting that I have diamond pistols. I'll edit but atm I'm leaving to go home right now
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Post by omeganuepsilon on Dec 5, 2012 19:56:20 GMT -5
A few points:
KAP does not need laser sight, it's innate lack of recoil is awesome. Ext mags may be nice for when enemies insist on rushing your sniper perch, refusing to let you live, even if it costs them a crap ton of score/deaths. I often get 5-6 kills with a naked KAP.
Naked Pistols better than primaries? No, range is a too huge of a limiting factor. They are awesome up very close, but become ineffective when approaching max shotgun OHOK range, imo.
Overkill? Yes please. Tac insert First Weapon SMG(or shotgun) Sec. Weapon Sniper Betty (some people like claymores, but a betty will never kill your tac insert).
What sucks about snipers is that when you get killed and spawn, enemies can be really close and the sniper becomes unwieldy and slow to swap when microseconds count. I like to respawn with a SMG out, kill my attacker and other bum-rushers, see how it goes from there, then continue sniping.
It will often get to the point where these people get tired of dying and would rather just go try and kill other people and take their chances at getting sniped by me. (or if not, in KC or Deathmatch, I get a ton of easy kills, tags to include my own, and win the game anyhow). Almost guaranteed 2-3 kills per death, many more if you've got some decent skills.
Sure, you could take fast hands, and use a pistol and try to race the clock, but it really doesn't always pan out, and the other perks can help out your survivability during normal play. CB is great as so many blind people like to use Target Finder. No red name popping up is also an old favorite. ( Note: I refuse to quick scope. I see it as a glitch. But that's an argument for another thread, just stating why I don't use it as a solution )
IMO, all the pistols have their uses, as they're intended, back up for what your primary doesn't do well, and they can excel in that role. As a faux primary, not so much. Low range and low ammo are greatly limiting factors that restrict the style of your game-play to run-and-gun in cqc. get anywhere in the open any, even poor / noob, enemies will rip you up as long as they are somewhat aware of where you are.
If you choose to do it for the fun of it, so be it. Just giving my comparison. Range puts them at a disadvantage more than your perks and speed will give advantage... unless you play a specific limited way, or get lucky very low skill noobs.
Attachements may change that, haven't tried duals, and only minimally played with things like Long Barrel.
/long time reader, first input //Disclaimer: I've never liked pistols, but use them more in this game as it's much more CQB oriented.. Your mileage may vary with using them out of arm's reach, I just can't hit jack with them after xx distance. Sustainable fire rate > accuracy, especially in this iteration of CoD.
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Dec 5, 2012 20:01:06 GMT -5
the tac-45 is the greatest kill confirmed class ever devised. stick a long barrel and fast mags on it.
you can have a positive KD and pick up 1/3 of the tags even in 9v9 ground war.
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Amirror
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Post by Amirror on Dec 5, 2012 20:47:47 GMT -5
Any Sniper with a Kap-40 Extended Mags. Nuff said.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Dec 6, 2012 0:12:48 GMT -5
I could also Overkill an SMG at the same cost though.
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Post by volgon on Dec 6, 2012 0:27:14 GMT -5
Pretty sure all the pistols get the same attachments. You can even put a suppressor on the Executioner.
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Post by omeganuepsilon on Dec 6, 2012 0:57:44 GMT -5
In that case, a faster reload may be far more helpful on the KAP than the extra 5 bullets from extended mag I'm not sure how much extra ammo you get total, but that was not the point I was envisioning. I wasn't talking about needing to reload less, just more ammo = more kills before you run empty. In a situation like I described, where you're more or less not allowed to snipe, I can see where a few more kills from the extra ammo would be of help. I never seem to need to kill more than 2 or 3 man teams rushing me without a pause in between. As it's got a quick re-load anyhow, I'm more than ready before they spawn and make it there again, so the extra ammo, collectively, means more kills total. Of course, I don't use any attachements on the KAP myself(stupid pick 10..), hence not knowing how many more rounds extended mags gives total. I've tried looking at the "stuff known about BO2" thread collection, but they're not exactly comprehensive, more of a lottery if it contains exactly what you're looking for or not. Anyone know of a comprehensive place to see info like that? While this place is great to find weapon damages and fire rates and FOV of the sights, kind of hit or miss on other things.
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Lexapro
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Post by Lexapro on Dec 6, 2012 1:00:00 GMT -5
Ex. Mags does give 5 extra rounds.
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Post by omeganuepsilon on Dec 6, 2012 1:17:43 GMT -5
So, I had to log in and check because it was bugging me. Here's what I saw:
Ammo count on KAP naked: 15/45
Ammou count on KAP extended mags: 20/60
That's 4 mags total +5 rounds EACH = 20 extra rounds.
That's about 6 kills worth if you're good with it.
My point stands.(of course, nullified by Scavenger perk)
Playstyle does come heavily into play though. If you don't intend to live long enough to use the ammo, an even faster reload might save your bacon(heavy emphasis on "might", because it's already a really fast reload. If you KNOW you'll live longer with more ammo and reach higher scorestreaks, it could certainly be of use.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Dec 6, 2012 3:31:15 GMT -5
I prefer EMags. 20 is manageable. 15 and I start messing up on what should be easy dubs.
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Post by funcrusher on Dec 6, 2012 22:02:54 GMT -5
Is the kap really that good? I've only used it in gun game and it's akimbo so I feel like I can't hit anything with it that's further than 3 feet from me.
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Post by volgon on Dec 6, 2012 22:07:07 GMT -5
Agreed on ExMag for KAP. Those 5 extra rounds turn maybe 2 kills into almost definitely two kills. For me, it's either ExMags or Akimbo.
And yes, the KAP really is that good. It's essentially the best SMG in the game barring mag size.
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Dec 7, 2012 8:03:38 GMT -5
People think overkill makes secondaries with an attachment less good. The thing they forget is that fast hands is pretty much mandatory if you run overkill
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 7, 2012 8:21:55 GMT -5
And yes, the KAP really is that good. It's essentially the best SMG in the game barring mag size. Truth. I made a joke class with it to humiliate some kid in FFA, and the thing is ridiculous. I run it in a real class now with emags and long barrel, and I consider it to be absolutely competitive with SMGs. I don't consider it a waste of points either, since relative to SMGs you're getting Quickdraw and Fast Mags for free. Dexterity + .1 second ADS + faster ttk than any SMG up close = hackusations. It also gets you a lot of medal XP; the gun pukes out longshots and headshots like they're nothing.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 7, 2012 13:35:54 GMT -5
I could also Overkill an SMG at the same cost though. SMGs and pistols have both different roles. (And by pistols, I mean the Raffica and the KAP, since those are the only two pistols in this game.) The pistols: -Are ludicrous in CQC. -Possess super fast swap times. -Are cheaper for the same number of attachments. Both pistols kill faster than any SMG in CQC. Any SMG. Raffica is a three hit kill at about 703 RPM (and that's sustained fire! The actual burst itself is very quick) while the KAP is a three hit kill at 900 RPM. For example, a Raffica with a laser will always beat a SMG in CQC and costs the same. For a sniper who will primarily snipe, the choice is very clear as a pistol is a reliable sidearm for the unexpected and when dealing with tight interiors. An Overkilled SMG is better for a hybrid sniper who is more mobile and spends less of his time actually sniping.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Dec 7, 2012 13:49:00 GMT -5
Unlocked suppressor for B23R yesterday and it is a great attachment. The range penalty on pistols is only 0.9x, which is significantly better than any others. I now have a silenced option for my rushing/flanking classes (while will enjoy the stealth when shooting somebody from his flank), without having to make agonizing decisions on whether to put suppressor on my primary, which will cost a precious attachment slot + reduce the effective range by 25% (SMG) - 30% (AR, LMG).
@mega: at least from my experience Tac45 is a great pistol too. I especially like to put it on my FAL classes as they are both semi-auto and have the identical fire rate, so I can use them with the exact same trigger pulling rhythm. I also got killed by Five-Seven from time to time and it seems deadly in skilled players' hands.
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Post by cashmoves on Dec 7, 2012 14:04:04 GMT -5
I could also Overkill an SMG at the same cost though. SMGs and pistols have both different roles. (And by pistols, I mean the Raffica and the KAP, since those are the only two pistols in this game.) The pistols: -Are ludicrous in CQC. -Possess super fast swap times. -Are cheaper for the same number of attachments. Both pistols kill faster than any SMG in CQC. Any SMG. Raffica is a three hit kill at about 703 RPM (and that's sustained fire! The actual burst itself is very quick) while the KAP is a three hit kill at 900 RPM. For example, a Raffica with a laser will always beat a SMG in CQC and costs the same. For a sniper who will primarily snipe, the choice is very clear as a pistol is a reliable sidearm for the unexpected and when dealing with tight interiors. An Overkilled SMG is better for a hybrid sniper who is more mobile and spends less of his time actually sniping. this is all true, but i think you left out an important detail - mag size (or clips, or whatFoxtrottingever). i would add, that ive found the B32 pretty unplayable (even as a secondary to my sniper rifle in search, which is all i play) without extended mags. even with extended mags you only get 7 bursts, then a painfully slow, death fulfilling reload if you are getting rushed. this is, of course, in SEARCH where youre not exactly getting bombarded by rushers like in domination. i either have to go with ext mags, or akimbo. using only the silencer, i die far too often to that second guy coming around the corner following the one i just killed... and in search, that is infinitely infuriating. so yea, the B32 is an excellent sidearm. but i think its stock 5 round burst fairly and justifiably limits it. if you slap on dual B32s then you increase ammo and very close range spamming, but give up the ability to aim accurately over like 15-20 feet. I think its pretty fair. set up a silenced B32 only class and play free for all. i think youll be crying for a larger mag/your smg back. yes, that is a challenge. edit* i suppose my point is that they arent ludicrous. unlike mw3, pistols are actually a viable component of the game, which im very happy about.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 7, 2012 14:13:29 GMT -5
Right.
As a side arm (you know, a secondary weapon) that you pull out for, oh, shit, some guy snuck into my tent, the capacity of the pistols is fine.
If you want sustained firing capacity to kill someone at mid range or take on a few guys at once, use an SMG.
Attachments on a pistol can be justified for certain classes, such as dedicated snipers.
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wittyscorpion
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All warfare is based on deception.
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Post by wittyscorpion on Dec 7, 2012 16:40:08 GMT -5
Guys, I mentioned it once but it is worth mentioning again because it was not in the OP (just added):
One very important premise in my head but I forgot to mention is that when I am comparing naked pistols vs. naked primaries, I fully intend to pick up another weapon from the ground. As a result, I feel that a naked B23R is better than a naked SMG/AR because I can easily get a fully loaded one on the ground :-)
vs Overkill: we are then talking about secondary w/1attachment vs. naked primary (most likely SMG). The pistol's case becomes stronger due to the extra flexibility offered by the attachment.
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Post by beastofmanjura on Dec 11, 2012 16:01:08 GMT -5
I can see your arguement for overkill which could lead to a debate vs pistol +1 attachment being the victor but I cannot see how a naked pistol can beat a naked primary. Lets view the pistols...
The Fiveseven, tac45, and B23R, and the KAP all lose in almost every category straight up to the MSMC who carries a faster fire rate, longer range, more ammo in clip, and damage. (Except for the kap who carries +1 more dam at max range but recoils tremendously, + just lost its headshot modifier in last patch)
The only thing these pistols have over any other gun in the SMG category to win straight up in naked vs naked is ADS time, and recoil due to a slower fire rate. (barring the kap who has horrible recoil)
the executioner also loses straight up to the 870 even after nerf. at point blank which is all its good for the 870 will easily do the job.
IMO your better off running a naked SMG and picking up a weapon then running naked pistol and picking up the weapon. Better chance to get the kill IMO.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Dec 11, 2012 16:19:32 GMT -5
The Fiveseven, tac45, and B23R, and the KAP all lose in almost every category straight up to the MSMC who carries a faster fire rate, longer range, more ammo in clip, and damage. Save the Five Seven, everything you just said is false.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Dec 11, 2012 21:36:39 GMT -5
A secondary and two attachments isn't worth it. Second primary + 1 attachment is better.
I never really needed fast hands for my overkill s12 and svu-as setup. I did fine without it.
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