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Post by osvald2020 on Apr 21, 2013 15:26:10 GMT -5
The maps should be like they were in BO1 and MW3. The best map layout by far is the triangular one, which firing range used for example. Also because you can't achieve perfect weapon balance balance the weapons like they are in MW3, half of them are competing with each others and the rest are not far behind and can thus be used for having fun. Example of this is the SMGs: MP7 is a very good allround weapon but with short range and mediocre firerate and very low recoil, PP90M1 has high firerate but a bit higher recoil and low minimum damage, P90 has a huge magazine and average firerate, average range and quite low recoil, UMP45 has longest range and assault rifle penetration.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Apr 21, 2013 16:35:28 GMT -5
and the MP5 sucks. (also that piece of shit mini-uzi that I don't even remember the name)
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 21, 2013 16:59:12 GMT -5
So I went through my older posts to see some of the larger ones where I came up with a bunch of ideas for stuff before MW3, Black Ops or whatever. Yes, a large amount of these ideas were "how to fix things." Obviously the developers need to add new stuff, but it's only natural that we focus on fixing the old things. Snipers and Knives - So back before Black Ops 2 came out, there was discussion on how the knife should change. I did base an idea off of the rumors that we could potentially see a 2 hit kill knife. Even though the Black Ops 2 knife feels horrible to use, dying by it still feels like bullshit (as in every other game) which makes this still a relevant discussion and option for future games. Short version: Make the knife deal ~70 damage to allow for a bullet+knife combo for an up close kill, double damage for a back stab. Snipers deal half damage up close to prevent the lucky hipfire kills, while allowing you to follow up a hit with a knife to give players a chance to skillfully kill up close. That thread also had a bunch of other great ideas. Shotguns should do at least some insignificant damage at any range. Give SMGs back their minor ADS spread to prevent bullshit SMG sniping (which an indirect buff to snipers being actually used for sniping). Den's post on shotguns is great, focusing on balance through spread rather than range or damage. Hardcounters suck - More of a discussion on why having a perk completely counter something is stupid and shouldn't happen. Short version: Dead Silence/Awareness should be range decrease/increase on footstep sounds rather than making the sounds inaudible/hyper-audible, Flak Jacket shouldn't allow you to sit on grenades, etc. Everything needs to have some sort of counter-play, if the only possible counter is a hard counter then it needs to be nerfed at the core. Also Den had another amazing post in that thread about Stopping Power/Juggernaut. I had other posts, but they didn't really explain stuff in detail enough to bother linking to.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -5
MP5 actually sucks BECAUSE of user feedback.
It was "too accurate" in the CoD4 beta -- and got hit with the nerf stick. And that stuck around.
It's kind of funny: It only needed much sway and fast sway, but was made useless for 4 games by that one beta.
Sway is a much better balancing factor for slow RPM smgs -- especially 9mm ones that are deadly accurate in real life. If anything, the P90 should've had more recoil and more damage, and MP5 less damage and deadly accuracy.
OH well. Water under the bridge. I remember getting 60 kills consistently with the BETA MP5 in Free for All, ending the game before the 10 minute time limit. Good times.
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 21, 2013 17:51:51 GMT -5
If it sound requires a hard counter, then it overall needs to be less effective to the point where it doesn't.
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 21, 2013 18:20:03 GMT -5
Having a bunch of strong options is fine. The problem is when one of the options completely makes a mechanic of the game irrelevant. Everything should have counter play. There shouldn't be only one solution, especially one that is just a passive "you completely ignore this mechanic".
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 18:39:24 GMT -5
MORE sprint, slower strafe speed. Hit detection is already iffy at high movement speeds -- and strafing while firing with an SMG is just too much of an advantage when they're both hard to aim at AND aren't aligned with their hitboxes.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 19:07:19 GMT -5
I don't have a PVR, so it will always just be the lying theater mode and bad accuracy. I considered taking video with my phone, but the quality is lackluster.
BUT you can test this yourself anytime: Just find someone not living near you, start a game, strafe alongside that person at 15 meters range both with the fastest strafe speeds available and fire single shots at his sides.
Try to pre-fire and post fire too. Sometimes, you hit behind the target, sometimes you hit in front of the target -- sometimes you don't hit the target.
In other news: Not even my theater mode works. Games fail to load, and games that load fail to upload when finished. I just spent 50 minutes building up a case with the XPR50 ACOG (hold-breath-firing) -- but the games either won't load OR won't save.
Phone camera it is then.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Apr 21, 2013 19:10:21 GMT -5
MORE sprint, slower strafe speed. Hit detection is already iffy at high movement speeds -- and strafing while firing with an SMG is just too much of an advantage when they're both hard to aim at AND aren't aligned with their hitboxes. i still have yet to see you offer reasonable proof for this at all. I, for one, can and have told the devs what weapons will be used the most and which weapons will be used in competetive gaming and by better-than average players since CoD4 with a 99% success rate, earlier than they have any reliable way to draw conclusions from gameplay statistics. This man predicted the metagame of every CoD with ninety-nine percent accuracy. What more proof do you need? I, for one, will be accepting everything this man says as undeniable fact henceforth without any evidence whatsoever.
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42
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Post by 42 on Apr 21, 2013 19:13:11 GMT -5
Although I know this isn't strictly gameplay related, three dimensional Call of Duty for people owning 3d TVs would be a neat feature. Might even put CoD on a higher plane.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 19:47:08 GMT -5
Test it yourself: Both of you are strafing, so your worldview will remain constant: He will always be in your sight for as long as you both strafe at max speed with lightweight, a pistol / SMG with stock. Make sure this isn't your neighbour.
Besides, it's not like I'm pointing at one point and have the opponent run past my sight -- I'm following the target, so when I call ox manure, it's because I've trailed a victim and fired with a constant and stable image of him in my sight, just like when you strafe alongside a target on 15 meters range with him in your sight.
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 21, 2013 21:18:33 GMT -5
Another quick thing, why in the world do we need semi-auto snipers? When have they ever been a good idea in any shooter?
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42
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Post by 42 on Apr 21, 2013 21:31:40 GMT -5
Another quick thing, why in the world do we need semi-auto snipers? When have they ever been a good idea in any shooter? They're okay in Counterstrike but quite expensive and thus popular for pubs. Semiauto works wonderfully in Halo, though it's not quite the RPM people would expect. In Red Orchestra, semiautos don't outclass bolts because they are less accurate. I think they're wonderful in CoD. Bolts-only sniper rifles would stifle variety.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 21, 2013 21:42:21 GMT -5
How far away that other person is has a lot to say about sight consistency: The closer the target, the harder to keep the target in sight and predict his position relative to the terrain. I find the perfect range to be about 15 meters -- beyond that, it gets harder.
Now that I'm off the ACOG -- I suddenly realized how far 15 meters appears to be in this game. Try 7 meters.
But DO try it.
Even a 0.02 second desynch at a target moving at 20 feet per second is 0.4 feet desynch -- enough to miss a head if you aim dead center, or a torso in that same scenario -- if you're aiming at his back as he runs to not hit his arms and lose the 1HK.
=================
As for semi-automatic snipers: Infantry <--> dedicated marksman <--> combat sniper <--> true sniper
The dedicated marksmen, scouts and eyes of a team, will likely use a semi-automatic 7.62 rifle to be able to hit targets on longer ranges than the rest of their team.
Likewise, snipers that are in a team to assist them and observe from a hillside may need a semi-automatic sniper to lay down suppressive fire or to cause mayham to a building, in a way that a bolt action cannot, in addition to the need to hit a target to save the lives of teammates.
I, for one, only play CoD because it's the most authentic shooter that exists at the moment with a decent playerbase.
5 hits to the head-field 3, with bullets moving slower than some motorcycles and wal-mart servers, simply does not compare in this regard: I wanted to try it and love it -- but 5 hits to the head?? COME THE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE ON!
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Post by I Am Hollywood5 on Apr 22, 2013 15:11:50 GMT -5
Wow haven't been around here in a while, first time seeing this thread. Pretty cool that IW even knows this forum exists, let alone gives our feedback any consideration at all. Although I'm curious as to why they never implemented any feedback if they actually had been lurking around here in the past. Anyway...
The biggest thing for me: IW, please pay attention to the things that clearly annoy the community. You'll never make everybody happy, but IW games seem to frustrated people more than Treyarch games, in general. If there is a slight balance inconsistency and the vast majority of the community doesn't have a problem with it, it might be okay to let it slide. But come on, when a large portion of the community is making it EXTREMELY clear to you that there's a balance issue, please listen, and stop being afraid of the backlash from the scrubs who need crutches to compete with everyone else.
Besides that, there are these three VERY important things for me:
1. NO. DEATHSTREAKS. PERIOD!!!! 2. NO MORE AKIMBO. If you absolutely must have it in your game, it should be limited to traditional semi-auto pistols only. Please please please no more full-auto akimbo secondaries. 3. I would really like to see the next game require more skill to master the weaponry, across the whole spectrum. Meaning the average damage per bullet is lower than it was in MW3, and possibly even BO2. Even more important is that average recoil across all weapons is noticeably higher than MW3. I understand you want the game to be fast-paced, but you can still make it fast even with weapons that are more difficult to master.
Lastly I just want to see some true innovation. BO2 had more innovation than any COD since COD4, but it still wasn't enough to keep it from getting stale pretty quickly. It still felt like the same old game with a new paint job after about a month. I want to see drastic creativity this time. it's time for a COD game that isn't afraid to REALLY shake things up. I want it to FEEL and PLAY different from any other COD, and if it's going to be on next-gen consoles, you are going to have the hardware available that will give you some big opportunities. The COD formula is good and solid but it's been milked dry. It's time to start messing with the core parts of the formula.
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Post by thegentleman on Apr 22, 2013 15:34:23 GMT -5
To add onto the pile:
I'm tired of attachments that are so weak that one isn't sure whether they're actually doing better with them or without them. In MW3, the range proficiency almost never saw use on an SMG at 25%. Now in BO2, long barrel has cut that down to 15%. Take a look at the grip discussion, too. The centerspeed increase / recoil reduction in most cases is only barely different from the normal recoil plots, and any empirical testing of the attachment usually doesn't give the player any kind of indication of whether things are different or not.
On that note, why are there still surfaces that a bullet with FMJ can't go through? I've really wanted to design classes around shooting through concealment, but it's always been a crapshoot as to whether an opponent is behind the "right" kind of walls. And, given the nature of the game to reward headglitching, any surface that a player knows is bulletproof WILL become a headglitch site.
If a perk or attachment doesn't seem powerful or doesn't provide a meaningful alteration to a playstyle, cut it. Just because something was in one game, it doesn't necessarily mean that it absolutely has to return in the next one.
From the talk I've heard, there's a lot of discussion inside the Infinity Ward studios as to how to remain relevant. If you want to continue to have a good multiplayer experience, work on providing experiences that are flat-out new. Not everything needs to be revamped, but in my mind, the multiple scorestreak options in MW3 was really refreshing and added a number of dimensions to the game and player styles.
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Post by Morshu on Apr 22, 2013 18:06:37 GMT -5
I'm tired of attachments that are so weak that one isn't sure whether they're actually doing better with them or without them. In MW3, the range proficiency almost never saw use on an SMG at 25%. Now in BO2, long barrel has cut that down to 15%. Take a look at the grip discussion, too. The centerspeed increase / recoil reduction in most cases is only barely different from the normal recoil plots, and any empirical testing of the attachment usually doesn't give the player any kind of indication of whether things are different or not. One of my big gripes with BO2. I also thought most of the perks were weak too.
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42
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Post by 42 on Apr 22, 2013 18:36:31 GMT -5
Of course they were. Literally every single one has an equal or stronger iteration in a previous game. But so were weapon attachments. I guess all the weakness balances out in the end, sorta.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Apr 22, 2013 19:04:43 GMT -5
I consider Long Barrel to be pretty noice on the MP7.
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 23, 2013 0:27:54 GMT -5
You are all forgetting that all of the attachments have to be competitive. Red Dot Sight is arguably the least useful attachment in the game, and nerfing the other attachments lets them all be more competitive.
Same deal with perks. I'm not going to choose hardline over being completely immune to every killstreak in the game. I will however consider it against immunity to UAVs while moving only. You complain that they nerfed things too much, and in the end they actually made everything more competitive.
The alternative is to cause a power creep by making everything that was weak stronger. Then we enter a world where everything is OP, people will bitch about everything even more, and the game becomes less fun.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 0:38:01 GMT -5
The simple solution was: Let Red Dot sight be FREE.
I mean: This is 2013 -- you can buy red dot sights at wal-mart by trading in bottles you find on the road from your house and there! Most modern guns I know of come with free red dot sights, and some don't even come with iron sights unless you specifically ASK them to nerf the gun and pay extra (G36).
Free ACOG or Red Dot. Have the other stuff cost slots; Supressors, BS-monitors and BS-attachments.
"But that would make iron sights useless" No it would not -- if you prefer Iron Sights, go ahead and use them! "But I'm a miserable creep that want to dictate how everyone else plays!" Shoo.
I mean: The supressor is more powerful than ghost by miles and miles and miles: It allows you to never appear on radar when killing an opponent with your weapon -- while everyone who does not use it appears on your radar.
=================
While we're at it:
Iron Sights, Red Dot or ACOG: 0 points: Let's face it already: Mere optical sights simply cannot compete with Sci-Fi attachments like the Alien Bleeper and Target Aim Assist System and See Through Wall bullets (why else would you not be able to put armor-piercing bullets in your gun with the MMS?)
Tactical grenades: 1 point for TWO Have Stun grenades not be so bloody annoying (Obviously -- only one tactical grenade slot, where you can have the set of two -- unless you buy another slot.
At that point, it's all gravy. Red Dot and Stun and Flash grenades don't have to compete with infinite equipment, actually winning sudden face to face gunfights (quickdraw handle) or science fiction.
...
As for Ghost, instead of making it useless unless you run around like a headless chicken: Ghost prevents radio waves from detecting you. Problem is, it prevents you from detecting them too: NO enemies on radar unless they fire their gun.
Awareness: Suppressed weapons appear on radar when they're near you.
======================
Finally: SOUND IS ESSENTIAL TO THE GAMING EXPERIENCE.
Instead of having NOBODY be heard -- or giving the sound-prostitutes the advantage...
Just imagine, for a second, that you're standing in your walkway. You hear someone RUNNING on the gravel. You would, wouldn't you? So why is the DEFAULT stance in the CoD games that you NEED Turtle Beach headsets to be able to hear people running?
You HEAR people running -- so why the heck do the developers want players to NEED headsets to hear them running in their vicinity?
And how in the name of heck did they figure out that the best way to level the playing field was having NOBODY hear anything? I mean: WHY? WHO? HOW?` Did they actually INTEND that ONLY players with 125 decibel surround should be able to hear footsteps?
... Now. Back to my actual argument; I'm letting 'human sillyness' get to me again I see:
WHY didn't they simply make footsteps audible for everyone? Tah the freaking dah!
"But silly guy, why would anyone use Awareness then?" BECAUSE, and if anyone actually has to ask this question, I'm going to facepalm -- the obvious solution is not to increase volume, but to increase DISTANCE you can hear people walking and running.
Standard distance: Running: Audible 45 feet, barely hearable: 75 feet Walking: 25 feet, barely hearable: 45 feet
Awarness: Running: Audible: 75 feet, barely hearable: 125 feet Walking: 45 feet, barely hearable: 75 feet
Muffled shoes perk: 30% muffled footsteps in addition to reduced range: Walking: Audible: 15 feet, barely hearable: 25 feet Running: Audible: 25 feet, barely hearable: 45 feet (Sound of own footsteps: 75% muffled)
Edit:
I just played Black Ops 2. A person without dead silence came at me from behind. I was listening for footsteps with a turtle-beach headset. He SPRINTED around the corner and got me in the back.
It's like playing with the sound turned off, or playing as a deaf soldier.
============================
And about hit-detection: Unless you can connect with someone who's 60+ ping away from you, strafe alongside them and miss on obvious hits -- there's differences between PC and 360.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 1:07:23 GMT -5
Most other shooters don't have accurate, fully automatic weapons capable of killing a player faster than a sniper's zoom animation. Which is funny; The arcade shooter is more realistic than any other shooter on the market. Which reminds me of a funny story from Battlefield 3: I rounded a corner and saw 3 enemies just starting to run from my exact position. I had THREE targets on 5 meters range in front of me -- and I had an LMG. What is the sane thing to do? Reality: Sweep them all in one fell sweep. CoD: Sweep them all in one fell sweep. Battlefield 3: Walk away slowly and hope they don't see you, and try to pick them off one after one over the course of 2 minutes with 7 bullets to each of their heads, hoping none of them sit on a medpack.
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Post by wjang on Apr 23, 2013 3:13:44 GMT -5
My advice to Infinity Ward which almost certainly won't be heeded is to design the game that you guys want to play, not the safety net that Activision wants which alienates the least amount of people. Anyway, it's financial suicide, but it's what I want to see.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 3:44:07 GMT -5
i meant farther in terms of connection, not actual player distance. Regardless of my feelings as to how i feel about a few inches of desynchronization, you're overexaggerating the significance of this. Cod players are generally slower than most shooters, everything that matters is hitscan, head on fights will slow down movement big time, and one-sided fights are near impossible to fail anyway, and aim assist is arguably stronger in cod than any other shooter available. SOLUTION: don't go for headshots on someone sprinting perpendicular to you at 10 meters away. Acknowledge the (inevitable in any networking system) issue and aim for the front end of their body or even center mass, lord knows the game does half the job for you. Also correction on myself. 50 ms is the absolute highest you will go without information without packet loss. desynchronization is actually 33 ms simply because it's dependant on frames (and at 50 ms you're at the next frame and therefore spot on). 0.02 seconds desynch is enough to miss when aiming at the center of a head when that person is strafing at 10 feet per second. 0.04 seconds desynch is enough to miss the center of a torso; 0.8 feet if that person is strafing at 10 feet per second. Besides, aim assist works AGAINST you when you don't play with high sensitivity and need to track a target that's running: The aim slows down BEFORE it's on him, always lingering behind your target unless your sensitivity is high enough to "break the barrier" and come on target. Sticky aim starts to stick before you can hit them, causing a "web of missing" around them, unless you have the sensitivity to break past it. Obviously, if the target is stationary, your sight just slows down as you near your target, helping you hit him. But against moving targets, it can help your target if your target moves fast enough. My advice to Infinity Ward which almost certainly won't be heeded is to design the game that you guys want to play, not the safety net that Activision wants which alienates the least amount of people. Anyway, it's financial suicide, but it's what I want to see. Like CoD4 was sucide?
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 8:28:34 GMT -5
I filmed one game yesterday just to see how it worked -- and this was a good game, with only one bulldoo-doo encounter.
The bulldoo-doo is the first shot at 7:40 -- not the second shot. In theater mode -- both shots are misses.
On my screen -- you can clearly see that person in the center of my sight. Currently uploading the theater version -- which is more accurate than the actual video of what happened on my screen.
(Game mode on my TV and my 360 running 720p mode just to reduce any potential lag what so ever from my system)
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42
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Post by 42 on Apr 23, 2013 9:25:03 GMT -5
Personally it looks to me like you may not have been fully ads at the time of the shot but ill give you the benefit of the doubt. Definitely was not fully ads. Looks like he fired just before the animation finished.
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adw1983
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Post by adw1983 on Apr 23, 2013 9:53:44 GMT -5
while I'm linking to my laughs and giggles youtube already: I NEVER WANT TO SEE THIS EVER AGAIN IN ANY GAME: Make sure the spawn system is good, please. 1: two enemies spawn behind me 2: the guy who just killed me is actually on his way to this spawn and arrives 2 seconds after I've spawned 3: The guy who killed me whom I killed in return spawned two seconds away from me and kills me. Causing me to spawn inside the caves, two seconds away from him again. 4: One of the guys I killed respawns LITERALLY in my sights (This had to be done within the 30 second limit of MW3) ======================= I can accept that conclusion; It was a great game after all where most hits before that point did connect, and I was actually having fun. It drains my phone immensely though, so I can only handle two to three games at best, tonight, hoping for a bad 4 bar game or host. The previous clip was shot during day; I'm home with my 6 month old son -- so I cut out the background chatter for your convenience. I will not take any post questioning my connection seriously. England: www.pingtest.net/result/80276520.pngGermany www.pingtest.net/result/80276598.pngWorst imagineable case where I won't auto-ragequit because of too much latency; Russia www.pingtest.net/result/80276719.png(My PC is wireless, my 360 is cabled and running through the DMZ-IP on my custom router) I will update this in the "personal thread" instead of in this thread until a conclusion has been reached.
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Post by Aphoristic on Apr 23, 2013 13:46:25 GMT -5
The whole attachment problem was another thing I had thoughts on previously. My solution was to make a separate slot for optical attachments as they only compete with themselves. Treyarch's way of nerfing everything else to make them competitive does work, but I still did like my attachment idea. Hell, it is even possible to expand upon that and just let players choose any combination of compatible attachments instead of limiting them.
I would love to play with a silenced, laser sighted, rapid fire, fmj, akimbo, and extended mags weapon, and I'm sure everyone else would love to try some crazier combinations as well. I honestly don't see how it is a balance issue to allow such absurdities as much as it would have been a hardware limitation as both developers have complained to running out of RAM every time someone suggested they add a new gun/whatever.
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Shakerag
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Post by Shakerag on Apr 23, 2013 14:06:53 GMT -5
Oh, I just remembered one.
Expanded volume controls. I'd like to have finer detail about which game things I'm raising/lowering the volume for.
For example, I want to be able to: -mute the soundtrack music entirely -lower the volume on in-game effects (steps/shots/explosions/character voices i.e. "ENEMY! WITH WEAPON!") -lower the volume on the in-game announcer callouts ("we're losing this one" "enemy taking A") -raise volume on player voices (because some people just have shitty microphones) --preferably with individual volume controls for each player, but that's likely a pipe dream.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2013 14:12:14 GMT -5
Keep BOps2's Pick 10 system
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